Support NeoGAF

[Camjo-Z]

UNVOTE

Wouldn't want to accidentally end up on a turbo bandwagon when I haven't gotten a chance to read All That Shit™ Blarg posted yet. Will respond and re-vote later!

 

[Karkador]

My so-called "emotional appeal" was never intended to stand toe-to-toe against the actual case in-game against us, as it is a pure statement against accusations based on metagaming. Yet, who are the alleged "LOVELESS" now, you who say passion is stupid and does not belong in this Tunneling of Love? But fine, I will be cold for you now.

When it's all you post in a long while, it's all we have to go on. But thanks for getting serious now. Let's go.

This kernel of an actual gameplay-relevant accusation, since its statement, has been largely dropped by the majority of the players here and instead you all have resorted for many pages now to "metagaming" in the form of using prior games against me and therefore my partner Kawl, and now using the Crab Scale of Balance against us and our role, despite it being a relatively arbitrary scale of 'role madness' in the first place.

Yes, the meta-game stuff in this thread has been way out of line (I've been guilty of it, too), and I agree that it's sidelining the actual fair and pertinent points made by different people.

If the host has chosen to include a single wildcard in a "vanilla 5-ranked" game, how many points did that inclusion add to their game's Crab rating? Did it, even? Did the addition of a single 'mad' role for fun affect it, especially one as relatively benign as an empowered Miller in a game of a technical 15?

It's impossible to tell, and this subject is best left for post-game discussion.

For all I know, everyone in this game is a Tracker. Or maybe nobody is Mafia. They tried to give games a rating scale, but it's becoming kind of a red herring. Maybe we're an "11/10", and the game is so crazy that even the rating is a lie.

None of you possess the design document of this particular game. That is the realm of the host, and we are all players. If each of you had that in front of you to refer to, and if you can quantify a single 'mad' role's addition and thus the scale itself, then I'd submit to this presently illegitimate incriminator.

I respect Karkador for trying to quell this.

FWIW, thank you for at least acknowledging that I'm trying to cut through it.

I would really like to just tell everyone to drop all metagame discussion, but the problem is that we've swam out this far on a somewhat 'meta' assumption, too.

Our accusation. We were on your case since D1, because two Trackers on the same side seems like an unlikely scenario, no matter how deeply you think about it- and many others agree. The complication is, what do we deem this accusation?

Is it foul play to make an accusation based on common sense and experience with the game, or is every convention about Mafia reset at the start of the season?

I think there is sometimes a reasonable expectation of Mafia that a rule or convention always works a certain way- especially in a game where we not only know the ruleset, but practically live it. It's not just an objection to a fact in a rulebook, it's that what you're claiming (in a sense, that you're me) seems to make my purpose in the game redundant and unclear.

We have to use our judgment, and vote accordingly. I don't necessarily mind being lynched, because it will show we were being 100% honest and upfront. There's no guarantee that we'll come out of this getting it right, but that's why Town has been weighing the options and possibilities (which have sort of spun the fuck out of control).

We may both flip Town. In either case, we're both very likely to be lynched. That's the worst-case scenario. Zipped and I have discussed this from the start. It's entirely possible.

It's a tough situation the setup itself created, forcing our hands a bit. We've expressed why we chose to go forward with this confrontation. We'd likely be dead by N2 if you were scum, and without any chance to openly comment today. On the contrary, your

 

[UltraJay]

Vote: Blargonaut

I knew that there wouldn't be big twists to suddenly make town change their minds in that mega-post, but I thought it would at least be entertaining.

The 1-to-1 trade for scum is still our best bet. Blarg's alternative involves too many ifs and adds days of having to deal with this forking conflict.

Kark, you are looking way too deep into me not wanting to turbo Blarg. We wanted our thoughts known and it got me on the board that'll be visible when going back through all these posts. Now? I don't care. I want this day done.

Still think you should have targeted someone else Blarg. Though I am glad that whoever was responsible for the no-kill night - if beneficial - has kept quiet during this whole crappy day. If it was a doctor that targeted Blarg, they could have cleared this up. Either to protect their role while sacrificing Blarg, or because Blarg actually isn't town at all and there was no doctor.

A doctor saving Blarg made sense at the beginning of the day, but less so now. Blarg's flip can give us information about what happened last night without revealing the identity of a town PR.

 

[Karkador]

*on the contrary, your reasoning for bleeding your entire role on us (which you planned even before the game began) seems a lot less necessary or prompted. It has continually come off as you trying to establish yourself as an authority, which to me is a major #scumtell.

 

[Karkador]

And before you respond that "We're MIllers, we had to claim", remind yourself that calling yourself Miller is still a claim. It doesn't stand as evidence of anything.

 

[Coppanuva]

I'll probably go through the scenarios a lot more thoroughly at home, the previous post is not satisfying to me. For example, we have ignored throughout this discussion the existence of neutral roles. I mean, something like best friends seems like it would suit a neutral role, no? Not quite love, not quite loveless.

Them as a neutral makes no sense at all if you think about it for more than 2 minutes. First off, it's evident they seem to have tracking powers since they saw Karkador visiting them. Sure, it could be a lucky guess on it, but Karked themselves CONFIRMED A BLAWL VISIT. Blawl said who they tracked visited them, which Karked backs up.

So if they're a neutral, they need to have a non-destructive action, or you need to propose a way that both the neutral AND scum kill were blocked. This seems unlikely, and I can't think of a neutral that isn't destructive here.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Why is this day still going.

 

[Coppanuva]

Oh for the record, I'll be sparse near the end of this phase since I'll be at an airport and have limited access to my phone during that time. I may be able to vote some, but I won't be as active as I'd like for a day's end.

 

[Zippedpinhead]

Honestly blarg you make a very convincing case to lynch timeflux instead of either my team or your team.

The biggest leap is tying Kark and my role claim and challenge to you with trying to defend timeflux. I know that's one of your biggest points, but I just don't see it, especially when you tie Cabot/*splinter in as well.

Cabot was all over us day 1, and challenged our assessment of you the whole day. Kark and I sat out the whole dogpile flip off of timeflux and onto ultraboo and czartim's team (nevertim?).

I just don't see it, and it's part of what we are discussing in our lover chat, you've presented us with a challenge that doesn't allow for dual town trackers to pop up (which means we both die sooner rather than later).

 

[Retroid]

Please end the day.

 

[El Topo]

Them as a neutral makes no sense at all if you think about it for more than 2 minutes. First off, it's evident they seem to have tracking powers since they saw Karkador visiting them. Sure, it could be a lucky guess on it, but Karked themselves CONFIRMED A BLAWL VISIT. Blawl said who they tracked visited them, which Karked backs up.

Now that I think about it, there is no evidence Blarg has tracking powers, is there? Blarg claimed they had tracked someone, but refused to give the name since the person looked back and could be a town power role. Only after Karkador came forward and claimed to be a (town) tracker is it that they went with the story. That seems like a rather safe thing to say as a lie, because it seems reasonable for a town tracker to not reveal the name of their (power role) target and after all what are the chances they targeted the tracker?

So if they're a neutral, they need to have a non-destructive action, or you need to propose a way that both the neutral AND scum kill were blocked. This seems unlikely, and I can't think of a neutral that isn't destructive here.

I don't think a neutral role necessarily needs to be destructive, at least not immediately. Then again, without delving too far into metagame discussion, I don't deny that neutrals are traditionally destructive and I'm honestly not sure if we've ever had one that was mostly/solely peaceful.

 

[TL21xx]

Well, having read all of that...

 

[Ty4on]

I don't think a neutral role necessarily needs to be destructive, at least not immediately. Then again, without delving too far into metagame discussion, I don't deny that neutrals are traditionally destructive and I'm honestly not sure if we've ever had one that was mostly/solely peaceful.

We've had neutrals that needed to lynch a specific person to win.

 

[Kyanrute]

Blarg, I feel your tldr points put too much weight into the connections between Fluxaisis, Zippedor and Splibot. When I look at the connections, I do not see scum covering for scum, I see town ignoring the mistakes of a silly town-leaning player doing #unnecessarygamibits. Fluxaisis is ignored because people want to focus on to what they feel is the better target, yourself. Because of this, I disagree that flipping Fluxaisis right now would give us as much info as you claim. Killing Fluxaisis just tells their alignment, nothing more. Out of the three candidates for Mr. Bear’s meat pie, I am most suspicious of you. The vote stays.

 

[El Topo]

We've had neutrals that needed to lynch a specific person to win.

This neutral would need a non-destructive ability though. Did that neutral have one?

 

[El Topo]

Blarg, I feel your tldr points put too much weight into the connections between Fluxaisis, Zippedor and Splibot. When I look at the connections, I do not see scum covering for scum, I see town ignoring the mistakes of a silly town-leaning player doing #unnecessarygamibits. Fluxaisis is ignored because people want to focus on to what they feel is the better target, yourself. Because of this, I disagree that flipping Fluxaisis right now would give us as much info as you claim. Killing Fluxaisis just tells their alignment, nothing more. Out of the three candidates for Mr. Bear’s meat pie, I am most suspicious of you. The vote stays.

The problem with TimeFlux is that they have made two highly questionably plays, neither of which was beneficial for town and they kinda contradict each other.

 

[Kyanrute]

The problem with TimeFlux is that they have made two highly questionably plays, neither of which was beneficial for town and they kinda contradict each other.

Yeah, that's why they are behind the town gates, waiting for their papers, in my own mind. Even still, I feel that Blawl is the better kill for today, thanks to the million and one things said so far.

 

[Warxard]

After reading all of that I'm not entirely unsure as to what Blargonaut is actually arguing for. Most of the accusations and theories in his big post seem to go /nowhere./

 

[Karkador]

[*]Publicly state the Miller aspect in the D1 claim, leave out the Tracker aspect
[*]Face the standard Miller suspicion gauntlet; if they buy it and survive your debut, be content in the fact that scum would not likely target you every Night due to your value as a conversation piece/lynch scapegoat
[*]When the Town heat inevitably finally reaches you many Days later after your Miller claim, unveil your Tracker aspect and state who your Nightly targets were, and if you saw anything potentially incriminating in the process
[*]Live or die afterwards, be secure in the knowledge that you executed your power to the best of your capability, for the betterment of Town

This sounds reasonable to me.

We have already previously outlined multiple times our initial reasoning behind why we included our Tracker aspect in our claim and why we didn't think it was a serious mistake; the following two posts of ours summarize our continuing POV on this matter: Post #1911 ("If we had solely stated ourselves to be as Millers and had elected to omit that Tracker detail from our oh-so succinct debut, as you personally profess we should have; it would have be seen as a subtraction, not addition, upon reveal to our already tentative credibility after-the-initial-claim-fact in the highly likely event we had to come 'fully clean' in future due to increased scrutiny of our persons as naturally befits those of the Miller persuasion late-game. [...] Players do not react well to what they would perceive as conjured hand-waves against their suspicions in the form of claimed pro-Town abilities, especially when the claimant is in immediate danger without such.") and Post #2083 (we did not trust Town to trust us with only a Miller reveal alone; we were not thinking about the game's overall role balance pre-game, as we were only concerned at the time with accruing credibility against an early lynch of ourselves by letting Town know we were Miller variants who were empowered and could actually help out with our power role. "Personal execution [of our debut claim] for Town's sake, not game theory. [...] We weren't thinking about 2 Trackers because we weren't even considering game balance with other possible roles at the time.").

All I really have to say to this is "deal with it". Being a Town PR is tough, no matter what it is. If you're telling the truth, you banked hard on a pretty bad, premature strategy, and I have doubts that you wouldn't think that far ahead. Why did you decide you couldn't trust Town before the game even began?

Refer to those for your judgement, but for your immediate convenience I will reiterate our position here; we dumped our entire dual-class role into our opening claim because we thought that the pro-Town credibility gained from claiming to be a Tracker with showable results depreciated with time spent as a publicly-announced Miller, as we were feared not having to show anything useful for ourselves if the time came to unveil had we kept it secret like you suggest we should have. You have convinced the others it was a mistake on our part; we personally did not believe it was at the time.

This fear that you wouldn't have some Tracker info to redeem your Miller claim seems a bit baseless.

There is actually a pretty high potential for useful info from a Tracker. If your target moved, you get information about a A->B relationship. If they did nothing, you can also glean something from that (they don't have a role, or they don't have to do something every day).

Karkador x Zippedpinhead knows for a fact that we are a Tracker role, and vice versa.

Well, there are actually other possibilities for what you actually are, but nevertheless, your Tracker claim clashes with our Tracker role.

If they were in actuality the scum Tracker they say we are; getting rid of us via lynching in public like this gives them far more net benefit than keeping us as the Millers around as said conversation piece/scapegoat, because they gain something better for themselves: the removal of Team BLAWL as a known powered role threat to their team, a credible defense post-our lynching, saying that as claimed Millers our deaths had to come sooner or later anyway, and safety for one more Night phase guaranteed of who may potentially be their teammates, Timeflux.

No, the "conversation piece/scapegoat" makes more sense, IMO, and I would even wager that the mafia team would create their own strawman Miller character that muddles the conversation and acts disassociated from the group enough that nobody can really trace the eventual lynch back to a definitive scum team.

If you're going to propose that we would pass off the blame of mislynching you because you're Millers, you must have already been aware of how risky and unwise that play was to begin with.

It's my estimation that, with your Tracker role (an unlimited one, at that) would give you pause about revealing Miller so early; not the other way around. Revealing Tracker, you've practically made your role useless.



Refer to a quote of Kark's:

In the light of no kills occurring last Night, can you understand why we chose to be discreet about discovering them to be a power role?

It is this discretion of ours that Karkador wields as a #scumtell against us; saying that we kept silent because as alleged scum we had no reason to reveal their identity, as all we had to do was wait until the upcoming Night to get the chance to off them as a known power role threat.

Objectively, can you not see this accusation from both POVs?

Yes, of course I see the other perspective. I don't deny that it was a possibility; hence why I decided to start acting a bit cruel to gauge your reaction. With other players making comments that I looked scummy, I experimented a bit with seeing if I could force you to at least threaten us with a reveal if we keep acting up - but no such threat came.

It was a matter of risk. If we both stayed quiet about our results, we might have never been able to speak freely about our result. If you were scum, you could easily get away with a lie about your N1 result if we died on N2. I had a feeling that you were banking on a stalemate between us would keep me quiet, so I decided to preemptively strike.

You're playing with Karkador and Zippedinhead, after all.

 

[Ty4on]

This neutral would need a non-destructive ability though. Did that neutral have one?

The ability could be a night search for that target. The one I am thinking of is the hunter (I don't remember what his name was) in Night Vale who had to get a second neutral (this one had a night kill and a goal of killing x and y scum and town) lynched. He had the ability of investigating a person each night to see if they were his target or not.

It is possible Blawl have a neutral role with the goal of searching x of y or whatever while Karkhead can investigate for their target and found it in Blawl last night.
I've only thought if this because a scum/town means scum pulled a weird gambit for no reason The contradiction to this though is that I would assume neutral Blawl would have claimed years ago.

 

[Coppanuva]

This neutral would need a non-destructive ability though. Did that neutral have one?

Well... let's ask Blarg since IIRC he was a neutral role in a hunter-prey relationship (I think he was prey) in Cthulhu. I forget how the hunter worked, he might just have had to sniff someone to see if they were his target, and if so killed the target specifically. I might be remembering that wrong though.

 

[Karkador]

All that and I've still only quoted and responded to half of one megapost, fuuuck

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Wait, I didn't even read Blarg's BS, but he has the gall to say he's neutral? Yet, his miller claim was to cover his ass when an alignment cop investigated him and he showed up as Loveless. A neutral would read as null, not as Loveless.

He's scum. Turbo him.

 

[Ty4on]

Wait, I didn't even read Blarg's BS, but he has the gall to say he's neutral? Yet, his miller claim was to cover his ass when an alignment cop investigated him and he showed up as Loveless. A neutral would read as null, not as Loveless.

He's scum. Turbo him.

He never claimed neutral -_-

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

He never claimed neutral -_-

Oops, I didn't follow this conversation far enough back.

He's still scum tho

 

[Karkador]

He has specifically claimed Miller.

 

[Coppanuva]

Wait, I didn't even read Blarg's BS, but he has the gall to say he's neutral? Yet, his miller claim was to cover his ass when an alignment cop investigated him and he showed up as Loveless. A neutral would read as null, not as Loveless.

He's scum. Turbo him.

...No. He didn't, Topo brought up that we were ignoring the possibility of Blawl being a neutral. I argued that it wouldn't make sense given our evidence and I don't believe it's worth thinking about at this moment.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

He has specifically claimed Miller.

Oh, he's sticking to that?

...No. He didn't, Topo brought up that we were ignoring the possibility of Blawl being a neutral. I argued that it wouldn't make sense given our evidence and I don't believe it's worth thinking about at this moment.

Gah, sorry guys. I've been working a lot the past few days, I don't have to read megaposts and shit. I just jumped on what I saw going on in the thread from the last few posts. :x

 

[Karkador]

If nothing else, Blarg has been consistent in the claim. Whether that's confidence, or holding on for dear life to what seemed like a good idea at the time, is yet to be seen.

 

[Coppanuva]

Oh, he's sticking to that?



Gah, sorry guys. I've been working a lot the past few days, I don't have to read megaposts and shit. I just jumped on what I saw going on in the thread from the last few posts. :x

Eh no worries. Get some rest during the night phase though

 

[Ty4on]

Oops, I didn't follow this conversation far enough back.

He's still scum tho

Since you're in the know, why did a scum who is presumably also a power role claim miller and tracker on D1? The miller claim brought attention and the tracker claim meant they needed to provide town with info. The info they have so far provided also doesn't contradict with what we have from (presumably town) Kark and was provided before Kark claimed anything.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Eh no worries. Get some rest during the night phase though

I'll find time to read some of the shit that went down during that.

 

[Giant Panda]

Since you're in the know, why did a scum who is presumably also a power role claim miller and tracker on D1? The miller claim brought attention and the tracker claim meant they needed to provide town with info. The info they have so far provided also doesn't contradict with what we have from (presumably town) Kark and was provided before Kark claimed anything.

I agree that I don't see what advantage Blawl expected to gain from these actions if they are scum, which is why I'm not currently voting for them. At the same time, I'm not sure that means Karkhead must be scum.

I am close to voting Blawl though just so we can get the day over with, as it appears not many people are willing to change their vote.

 

[Timeaisis]

Now that I think about it, there is no evidence Blarg has tracking powers, is there? Blarg claimed they had tracked someone, but refused to give the name since the person looked back and could be a town power role. Only after Karkador came forward and claimed to be a (town) tracker is it that they went with the story. That seems like a rather safe thing to say as a lie, because it seems reasonable for a town tracker to not reveal the name of their (power role) target and after all what are the chances they targeted the tracker?

That's what I was trying to get at yesterday. Blarg could be completely lying about being a tracker, but still visited Kark last night in some other way. Most of his plays have been reactionary after his initial Miller-Tracker "reveal" on D1.

 

[Ty4on]

That's what I was trying to get at yesterday. Blarg could be completely lying about being a tracker, but still visited Kark last night in some other way. Most of his plays have been reactionary after his initial Miller-Tracker "reveal" on D1.

I'm not gonna lie, at I've point I repeated to myself: "Don't be a cop, Blarg"

 

[FluxWaveZ]

*eyes glaze over*

VOTE: Timeaisis

 

[Karkador]

The "i looked, and they looked back" part is a weird thing to say if they were a Cop, though.

 

[Ty4on]

The "i looked, and they looked back" part is a weird thing to say if they were a Cop, though.

The cop thing was just for fun.

 

[cabot]

Well, alright.

This pair seems about right.

VOTE: Rest

Me and Time are Love-aligned Buddy Cops. Once per night, we can investigate another team to see their role name.

My current thinking is this. Blawl didn't come into the frey until just shy of 7pm. Flux claimed at 6.06pm.

I have no doubt the team rocket claim was pre-made well before game start, though the miller tracker was tagged on at the very end. That could've easily been a quick adjustment.

yo, Blawl is Miller/Trackers

timeflux pls confirm

Also, Gorlak brought up the idea of a veteran about 20 minutes prior to the Blawl introduction.

Have you ever heard of this loveless person called veteran? They can't feel love... they can't even be touched, they'll never experience love to their fullest

Then Flux was a bit more threatening with it at 6.46pm

First off, we don't know that there is a doctor. Second off, I don't think our role is as useful as some people freaking out are making it seem.

Also, I could just say this: if there is a doctor, don't protect us tonight.

I don't think the claim was in the plan, and I think scum tracker Blawl saw the insta-name cop claim and reacted accordingly, covering themselves if they get targeted, since it could be a veteran name cop they're dealing with. We've already covered how the role name doesn't sound very Love orientated, and Blarg mentioned that was cause they were Miller.


That's specifically that point, and it's an educated guess, my other points still stand. Frustratingly I wasn't responded to.

VOTE: Kawl_USC

I'm ready to see the results.

 

[cabot]

I also still scumread Kawl strongly, Blarg has at least been a bit more open after the megaposts, I don't see the same attitude from Kawl.

 

[Ty4on]

VOTE: cabot

 

[cabot]

well its not last minute so at least I can respond to any sort of bandwagon this time

 

[Timeaisis]

*eyes glaze over*

VOTE: Timeaisis

I love ya, Flux.

 

[Ty4on]

I have no doubt the team rocket claim was pre-made well before game start, though the miller tracker was tagged on at the very end. That could've easily been a quick adjustment.

Yup

TO DENOUNCE THE EVILS OF TRUTH AND LOVE

Their team rocket claim had nothing to do with millers at all.

 

[cabot]

Is that supposed to mean something? I assumed it was part of team rocket.


Alright one point down, still got about 6

 

[Burbeting]

el topo & giant panda (0)
cabot
cabot

launchpadmcq & gorlak (1)
giant panda
ultrajay
coppanuva

kingkitty & hyperactivity (0)
cabot

timeaisis & fluxwavez (2)
gorlak
coppanuva
blargonaut
fluxwavez
camjo-z
blargonaut
tl21xx
blargonaut

magnumboy20xx & batsnacks (0)
flame_ac
ty4on

*splinter & cabot (1)
launchpadmcq
ty4on

blargonaut & kawl_usc (12)
karkador
zippedpinhead
flame_ac
hyperactivity
*splinter
timeaisis
camjo-z
tl21xx
launchpadmcq
kyanrute
ultrajay
retroid
fluxwavez
ultrajay
batsnacks
cabot

hobohodo & ty4on (0)
cabot
cabot
cabot
fluxwavez

coppanuva & flame_ac (1)
dusk soldier

karkador & zippedpinhead (1)
gorlak
ty4on
blargonaut
karu

 

[Flame_AC]

So why are we inching ever so closely to a day ending vote? I've always thought, that regardless if our mind is made up, it behooves us to keep the day for as long as possible. People trying to end it early don't make much sense to me.

 

[cabot]

So why are we inching ever so closely to a day ending vote? I've always thought, that regardless if our mind is made up, it behooves us to keep the day for as long as possible. People trying to end it early don't make much sense to me.

the last actual day hasn't been pleasant to be honest.

I wouldnt mind Hobo one day valiantly appearing here though.

 

[Flame_AC]

the last actual day hasn't been pleasant to be honest.

I wouldnt mind Hobo one day valiantly appearing here though.

The Blarg post was amazing, even if I don't believe a word of it. I think we need to hear from Hobo and Dusk, who has only made like three posts.

 

[cabot]

The Blarg post was amazing, even if I don't believe a word of it. I think we need to hear from Hobo and Dusk, who has only made like three posts.

I'm also weary that ill go to bed and a turbo happens, it has happened before.