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LttP: I finally finished Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. (spoilers)

Draxal

Member
You actually didn't mention the best addition to the game (Memory Prisms).

The presentation is a big step up, but the game design has too many flaws that hurt the fun. I made this post in the OT shortly after beating the main story that described my thoughts.

I enjoyed my time overall, but the actual game part left a lot to be desired even with the quality of life improvements. This remake unfortunately preserved all of the things that made Gaiden disliked in the first place as a side effect of being faithful.

Echoes is not a bad game, but it doesn't rank very high for me compared to other entries. I expect the Switch game to be amazing since they can focus on refining the series' mechanics, presentation, and writing. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Honestly, your experience matches mine, I completely despised the world map in this game unlike Awakening or Sacred Stones (which I was completely indifferent to), as the enemy skirmishes were unavoidable.

But I'm still quite worried about Switch's story.
 

Haganeren

Member
It's... Actually less "good" than what i have heard about it before.
I mean i don't care too much about presentation (and don't even like having voices in my games) but i thought the story was way better than Fates (which wouldn't be a luxury) albeit a little bit dated (obviously) and the characters are way better.
It seem the characteres are way better but at the price of a not very interesting gameplay, is that as bad as Fates-Birthright ? I mean, i don't think it would be as good as Fates-Conquest on that matter but still..
 

Linkark07

Banned
Of the 3 Fire Emblem 3DS games, this one is my favorite.

The characters were great, the presentation (including the superb character designs) and soundtrack were top notch, and having everything voiced was a great addition to the series. While the story was simple, at least it was better than Awakening and Fates. Only issues were the dull boring maps and gameplay; that said, I don't mind some elements like using HP for cast spells or having weapons give unique skills.

Hopefully something like that can appear on future titles.

Oh, and Mae and Delthea were my MVP. Long live the mages.
 

Loptous

Member
This game is my second favorite in the series after Genealogy.

However, the map design is for the most part terrible, it's even worse than Awakening which I considered the low point in the series before in that regard. I liked the world map though.
In my experience, better maps in Awakening means nothing really when most of them can be trivialized with a paired-up Robin wielding Nosferatu... Echoes felt more balanced to me (didn't find any easy exploit in any case) and it huh...actually made me think.
I kinda like cantors, because they force you to play aggressively (I usually have a very defensive playstyle) to prevent being surrounded, which I found a bit refreshing for the series.

And while I liked the maps in Fates (except for revelations), I found the gameplay overwhelming due to having too many parameters to keep track of (stats, dual attacks, skills, debuffs). I found it pretty tiring to play actually, which made me appreciate the simplicity of Echoes more.

So those that played both SoV and Gaiden, what differences that probably slipped under the radar for most people did you notice? I'm talking about stuff such as Duma and that other boss that use the Earthquake spell that damages everyone on the map, the difference being in the original he doesn't telegraph it, and in SoV he telegraphs it the turn before.
They removed the final dungeon penalty for taking too much time, which is a shame IMO. In the original, Celica's party's HP slowly depleted as Alm spent more time reaching her. Made the ending a lot more tense.
 

Hylian7

Member
They removed the final dungeon penalty for taking too much time, which is a shame IMO. In the original, Celica's party's HP slowly depleted as Alm spent more time reaching her. Made the ending a lot more tense.
Interesting, but I can see why they removed it because you would go through more than just a series of mandatory battles, given the more free nature of dungeons in Echoes. Would be kind of frustrating given the dungeon structure of this game only to have half of your units not in usable condition in the final battle.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
Was not a big fan of this one at all. If this is what fans want more of i'll gladly take more of Fates and Awakening instead. I still have nighmares over all of the poison land, specific ways to hurt enemies, and infinite enemy summoning.
 
Don't skip a good game because of the internet. Awakening may be my favorite game in the franchise, but SoV is unique and fun too and it's a good thing to keep trying different things while still being a classic SRPG.

Yeah I admit that's pretty petty of me.

I have a lot on my backlog right now but I'll most likely look into it when I free up some time. It's just kinda hard sometimes as a fan of Fates and Awakening comong into these threads.
 

Apenheul

Member
I wish that, instead of resorting to saying "game X is bad" or using words like "disastrous", people would start by saying "what didn't work for me in game X is .." or something along those lines so the discussion wouldn't exclude Fire Emblem fans that don't want to take sides. Fire Emblem is probably my favorite IP in gaming but I rarely participate in discussions because I think I don't belong on either side.

This is not in reaction to your post Hylian7, it just seems that every Fire Emblem topic will eventually devolve in 'this Fire Emblem' versus 'that Fire Emblem' even when neither are the point of discussion.

An yeah, I realize my reply also had nothing to do with the OP, so I'd just like to add that I'm really glad you enjoyed your playthrough of SoV. I'm still in chapter 4 and progressing slowly because I'm mainly playing Samus Returns and Etrian Odyssey IV. I find SoV pretty difficult at times and perhaps that's because I still can't decide which characters I want to focus on. Mae's my favorite character: "I'm still hyper! Let's go!".
 
Yeah I admit that's pretty petty of me.

I have a lot on my backlog right now but I'll most likely look into it when I free up some time. It's just kinda hard sometimes as a fan of Fates and Awakening comong into these threads.
You should play it still. I'm pretty critical of Fates but I still consider myself a fan of it, and I love Awakening. Echoes is different enough that it feels really unique and refreshing.
 

Hylian7

Member
Was not a big fan of this one at all. If this is what fans want more of i'll gladly take more of Fates and Awakening instead. I still have nighmares over all of the poison land, specific ways to hurt enemies, and infinite enemy summoning.
Fans want the presentation of this one for sure, and maybe some of the gameplay elements, but definitely not all of them. The method of storytelling was top notch in this game, and while the story itself was simple and not the best the series has seen, it was executed well with added things like one of the best villains the series has seen (Berkut).

Weapon based skills, dungeons, maybe magic costing HP (I think it was particularly interesting using stuff like Invoke, Fortify, or Sagitae because you open yourself up for potential death if you aren't careful), Archers being more like the ones in the game, and other little things.

Leave behind the map designs, bring back the weapon triangle, etc.
 

Haganeren

Member
Because those are the more popular games and those happen to be both the main characters and fairly popular.

Actually i heard the director doesn't know anything about Fire Emblem which was annoying for the staff. They didn't even wanted to add Lucina which is VERY popular, Nintendo had to step in and Lyndis feels like a last minute inclusion.

I think they fucked up, they took the first charcters of each installement and that's it. No matter if others characters are more popular and i don't even talk about others Fire Emblem.

Well, it seems it doesn't do too well as a result.. Not surprising.
 
Actually i heard the director doesn't know anything about Fire Emblem which was annoying for the staff. They didn't even wanted to add Lucina which is VERY popular, Nintendo had to step in and Lyndis feels like a last minute inclusion.

I think they fucked up, they took the first charcters of each installement and that's it. No matter if others characters are more popular and i don't even talk about others Fire Emblem.

Well, it seems it doesn't do too well as a result.. Not surprising.

Is there sales data? I'm curious?
 
I feel you on that lol.
I love Awakening and Fates, but a lot of FE gaf seems to wish they never existed.
Eh, I doubt that. Awakening saved the series from death, even people who were disappointed in the game have to admit that. Not wanting Awakening to exist means not wanting the series to continue. Most veterans liked the gameplay of Fates, especially the Conquest route, it's just the narrative and characters which took a huge nosedive in quality, which imo is kind of inarguable, the writing and plot are just awful. Shadow Dragon is by far the most hated game in the west, at least on GAF.
 

Linkark07

Banned
I feel you on that lol.
I love Awakening and Fates, but a lot of FE gaf seems to wish they never existed.

I loved them too, although I won't deny they are flawed, especially in the story section.

At least those two, especially Awakening, saved the franchise and made it more mainstream (although I understand that is the main reason people hate those two games)..
 

PK Gaming

Member
Echoes had a ton of promise. The presentation was fantastic, the script and voice acting are better than ever, characterization was generally much stronger and it seemed like a return to form in terms of actually depicting war + word building.

Here's why it didn't work:

The gameplay

It's bottom class Fire Emblem. There are pretty much no ifs, and, or buts about it. For anyone who is even remotely invested in the concept of strategy, Echoes is a complete and utter failure. It is so shallow, so devoid of smart design, playing it for an extended period of time is just an exercise in frustration. And why did anyone expect otherwise, given how it features a 1 to 1 recreation of Gaiden's original maps? It's amusing how people defend the gameplay, when those very same people have likely bashed Gaiden into oblivion. The game's obsession with being a faithful remake is almost always to its detriment, with things like the limited inventory, map design and class design being poor, and none of the new features like fatigue really amounting to anything. It's arbitrary what got carried over, and what was tossed (though the Arts system is pretty good).

Echoes even doubles down on the tedium from the original gaiden, with how enemies repeatedly respawn on the world map. This pretty much kills any desire to do sidequests since you'll be forced to do encounters if you backtrack. The game's balance is generally pretty lackluster, and cheesing your way through obstacles is pretty trivial. The game's poor design pretty much necessitates it though, which compounds on the issue. We've had broken FE games, and unfun FE games, but it's rare that we get a broken and unfun FE game.

The story

It's definitely promising, but it too falls flat on its face by the end. Relying too much on the source material will do that, but even the new scenes are lackluster (they somehow managed to take away Celica's agency...). The game sets up a pretty simplistic theme; your station in life does not matter, but undoes this repeatedly with destiny being a huge driver of the plot. The writing is just... bad by the end, i'm shocked that it got a pass here. There's pretty much no justification for the shameful use of deus ex machina by the end. Celica literally gives her up soul to a man who explicitly tells her he will ruin the world... because reasons. She turns into a Witch but Alm miraculously manages to save her by stabbing her with the Falchion because... reasons. The Falchion scene in particular ranks as pretty much one of the worst written scene in FE history, which is a testament to how bad it was.

The story in general also trips over itself to frame in Alm in such a perfect light, which is a shame because he's actually a pretty likable character, but his arc is so basic, contradictor andy bland. Celica has been talked to death, but the story's obsession with throwing her under the bus to make Alm look better is obnoxious, and the driving force for the character is fundamentally flawed and sexist. Here's why:

Kusikara said:
Alm pursues a path of power while Celica walks a path of love –and aims to save Alm with it, leading to a type of self-sacrifice. The scenario is built upon this.

Anyone who's actually played Echoes knows this is complete nonsense. Celica consistently uses force to get what she wants, brutally murdering pirates and tyrants out of necessity. Alm on the other hand, is more pragmatic, and has even tried to order a ceasefire with Rigel. It's silly. Sure it's better than Fates, but that's barely a bar, and it still ranks among the worst narratives for FE.

Misc

The game is pretty sexist. Now i'm sure someone will retort with an example of past FE games being sexist, and I accept that, but FE: Echoes stands out due to its quantity + recency. It's a given, because it strays too close to the source material, but pretty much every female character on Alm's route has to be rescued. Shameless CGs are a thing, and again Celica's character being in service to Alm by the end.

Overall it disappoints. It could have been amazing, but an adherence to being a faithful remake of a bad game really hurt the overall experience.

One of the worst, if not the worst FE game (after FE:Gaiden of course)
 

Hylian7

Member
I just hit like the third map in Act 6, the one on the boat in the story sea with the Brethren...I either need to re-evaluate my unit choices and items, or go grind. Good lord Brethren are terrifying.
 

zenspider

Member
Something about reaching back felt like a big step forward for the series, and I hope they took notes for FE Switch.

The stumbles can be tied to the source material I suppose, but the smaller, grounded storyline e, the overworked and exploration, the "change up" to the traditional combat elements - it's not the best Fire Emblem game, but in a weird way it's my favorite in context of the series post-Radiance.

Might sound silly, but the color pallette in this game really does it for me. Also the UI looks so slick, spartan, and video-gamey in the best way possible.
 

Hylian7

Member
Managed to get past the Dagons, I had to switch around some people's weapons, upgrade Alm & Celica's weapons, and use them right off the bat to kill the Dagons. Once I could take out the Dagons and the Mogall, the rest of it was pretty easy. Also Tatiana with Fortify is the GOAT.

Now I'm in the dungeon, which isn't incredibly hard so far, but more of a challenge than past dungeons IMO. Seeing enemies with Shadow Axes and stuff makes it harder.
 

Haganeren

Member
Is there sales data? I'm curious?

http://nintendoeverything.com/fire-emblem-warriors-sold-through-50-of-its-initial-shipment-in-japan/

Can't find the original Media Crate thing (because that's where it is) but yeah, here it is. The game doesn't manage to do better than Zelda Warriors Wii U with Switch AND 3DS sales.

It's good to mention that those "fans" game tend to sell especially at the beginning and that Zelda isn't as big in Japan as it is for us. (Of course for us it would be normal to see Hyrule Warriors doing better, but in Japan ? Not really)
 

Hylian7

Member
So I've made it pretty far down, to the seventh basement of the bonus dungeon....wtfffffff

These people are no joke.
 
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