The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Wait really? Bullsheeeet
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Magic: the GAFering |OT2|
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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Wait really? Bullsheeeet
Pokemon's had a "Standard" format for a while now.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Fuck that. Just sold them to an online shop for $120 because I'm a lazy bastard. And yeah, they were all 2001 and earlier.
I'll probably get a fat pack of Theros, some boosters from modern and a few singles.
blindrocket
Member
He seems like an obvious choice for my GW Voice/Archangel deck. Right now he is penciled in with the Witchstalkers...
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So who is brave enough to run more than two colors in their deck?
I've been looking at some RTR-block three color decks that look tempting.
blindrocket
Member
That's true. The deck I was looking at uses Gatecreeper Vine for basically the same purpose, but a little "better" considering you get actual land to use even if the creature dies.
Did this as a pattern exercise, but I actually found that we have might have enough information to solve which gods are in which set.
MYTHIC CYCLE
W/B -Ashen Rider
U/B -Ashiok
R/B -Underworld Cerberus
U/W -Medomai
R/G -Xenagos
This leaves B/G, R/W, G/W, U/R, U/G.
We think Ajani is G/W and in Born of the Gods. Also, Ajani may have swapped places with the B/W Mythic, making it likely that the B/W God is in set 3.
GODS CYCLE
wb: Athreos
uw: Ephara
rw: Iroas
wg: Karametra
ur: Keranos
gu: Kruphix
rb: Mogis
bg: Pharika
bu: Phenax
gr: Xenagos
We know that Xenagos and Iroas are in Born of the Gods.
We know that Karametra is likely in set 3 because of Ajani
There are two red gods known in Born of the Gods. Meaning the other two are likely in Journey into Nyx.
This gives us enough information to get the gods, which in turn tells us which mythics are likely in which set.
Born of the Gods
Mythic Cycle
G/W- Ajani
U/R- ???
U/G- ???
Gods Cycle
U/W- Ephara
R/W- Iroas
R/G- Xenagos
G/B- Pharika
B/U- Phenax
Journey into Nyx
Mythic Cycle
B/G- ???
R/W- ???
Gods Cycle
U/R- Keranos
U/G- Kruphix
G/W- Karametra
W/B- Athreos
B/R- Mogis
Also, it may be likely that we get the G/B and U/W temples in Born of the Gods, with the U/R, B/R, and G/W ones in Journey, to accompany their gods.
This would also make it unlikely that Kiora's in the block, fwiw.
MYTHIC CYCLE
W/B -Ashen Rider
U/B -Ashiok
R/B -Underworld Cerberus
U/W -Medomai
R/G -Xenagos
This leaves B/G, R/W, G/W, U/R, U/G.
We think Ajani is G/W and in Born of the Gods. Also, Ajani may have swapped places with the B/W Mythic, making it likely that the B/W God is in set 3.
GODS CYCLE
wb: Athreos
uw: Ephara
rw: Iroas
wg: Karametra
ur: Keranos
gu: Kruphix
rb: Mogis
bg: Pharika
bu: Phenax
gr: Xenagos
We know that Xenagos and Iroas are in Born of the Gods.
We know that Karametra is likely in set 3 because of Ajani
There are two red gods known in Born of the Gods. Meaning the other two are likely in Journey into Nyx.
This gives us enough information to get the gods, which in turn tells us which mythics are likely in which set.
Born of the Gods
Mythic Cycle
G/W- Ajani
U/R- ???
U/G- ???
Gods Cycle
U/W- Ephara
R/W- Iroas
R/G- Xenagos
G/B- Pharika
B/U- Phenax
Journey into Nyx
Mythic Cycle
B/G- ???
R/W- ???
Gods Cycle
U/R- Keranos
U/G- Kruphix
G/W- Karametra
W/B- Athreos
B/R- Mogis
Also, it may be likely that we get the G/B and U/W temples in Born of the Gods, with the U/R, B/R, and G/W ones in Journey, to accompany their gods.
This would also make it unlikely that Kiora's in the block, fwiw.
blindrocket
Member
Okay, spent the $130 for the rest of the cards I'd need to play that three color RTR-block deck. I hope it works out. lulz
GWB
Looks like fun.
EDIT: Hah, I actually lack some more cards. Mostly sideboard other than the lands.
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Pithing Needle
2x Underworld Connections
4x Sin Collector
3x Gift of Orzhova
3x Devour Flesh
3x Selesnya Charm
4x Gatecreeper Vine
4x Centaur Healer
4x Gaze of Granite
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Temple of Silence
GWB
Looks like fun.
EDIT: Hah, I actually lack some more cards. Mostly sideboard other than the lands.
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Pithing Needle
2x Underworld Connections
4x Sin Collector
3x Gift of Orzhova
3x Devour Flesh
3x Selesnya Charm
4x Gatecreeper Vine
4x Centaur Healer
4x Gaze of Granite
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Temple of Silence
I wonder how devotion will work for the mutlticolored gods. If any colors of that color of the god will do, Boros Reckoner for Boros, Frostborn Weird for Izzet, BTE for Gruul. Not sure what cards would fill in the other colors well yet.
I'm testing team America and I'm getting my mana fixed pretty consistently even without buddylands. I will take it to FNM and see how it does. Still lacking a bunch of cards of course. I'm forced to go midrangey due to lack of well, flash cards lol. Testing out Omenspeaker over Frostborn Weird for now and I guess I'm the minority but I like Scry 2. I've shipped away unwanted cards for the board state plenty of times. It's a good hoser for early aggro.
Boros Reckoner is also in the deck and so far he's great every time I drop him. He stalls so well so that you can reach late game bombs.
I'm trying to make Spear of Heliods and Assemble of Legions a thing but that mana investment is a bit much.
I'm testing team America and I'm getting my mana fixed pretty consistently even without buddylands. I will take it to FNM and see how it does. Still lacking a bunch of cards of course. I'm forced to go midrangey due to lack of well, flash cards lol. Testing out Omenspeaker over Frostborn Weird for now and I guess I'm the minority but I like Scry 2. I've shipped away unwanted cards for the board state plenty of times. It's a good hoser for early aggro.
Boros Reckoner is also in the deck and so far he's great every time I drop him. He stalls so well so that you can reach late game bombs.
I'm trying to make Spear of Heliods and Assemble of Legions a thing but that mana investment is a bit much.
bug is pretty goddamn good. I like the scryland -> caryatid -> reaper -> bestow boon satyr EoT when opponent is tapped out curve.
8/7 hexproof and 0/3 hexproof that leave a 4/2 behind after boardwipe. You just can't beat that.
Makes me happy Grakl and I pulled three boon satyrs at our prereleases. The card is surprisingly good against control/midrange... shame it can't do a bit more against aggro, but I guess that's why we sideboard Golgari Charm (for X/1 swarm decks, basically anything white based as they're bound to run enchantments as well) and Abrupt Decay (for anything more substantial.)
How do you feel about Prime Speaker? I've had really mixed results with her -- she's pretty good at blowing out control and midrange, but I feel like we need more fat, early creatures to combat aggro instead of more ways to get obscene advantage. Boon Satyr also has the unfortunate position of trading with a lot of aggressive 1-drops.
Here's how I feel about the aggro matchup:
The good -- Reaper of the Wilds is insanely difficult to attack through, Caryatid is basically 'gain 4-9 life' stapled to a mana dork, Varolz can turn some unfavorable positions around, Boon Satyr can come in at EoT to surprise an opponent and kill/come close to killing a Chandra.
The bad -- The deck has few/no ways to gain life, Lifebane Zombie and Boon Satyr are trades at best, and Golgari Charm doesn't really do anything against standard RDW/Rakdos recursion builds. Also, Tymaret can just blow us out after we stabilize, as a full hand and 'better creatures' doesn't matter when we're at -2. This kind of forces us to round out a playset of SCoozes -- I'm running a 3-1 split.
The ugly -- the more we play to beat aggro (ie, 3/3s everywhere), the weaker we are to Anger of the Gods. It already kills our mana dork, we don't want it become a blowout.
CeruleanSilver
Member
I attended my first ever pre-release last weekend and a had a great time. Overall I kind of sucked, but it was fun.
I opened decent money cards: Thoughtseize, Ashiok, and Erebos, but I couldn't get my devotion/etc deck flowing to win enough matches. I had a lot of trouble mid-game, with no board presence or decent protection from attack. Times are tight when you're hoping to draw a Felhide Minotaur to protect you
Anyways, my opponents were totally chill and cool. I'm definitely going to try again next time.
I opened decent money cards: Thoughtseize, Ashiok, and Erebos, but I couldn't get my devotion/etc deck flowing to win enough matches. I had a lot of trouble mid-game, with no board presence or decent protection from attack. Times are tight when you're hoping to draw a Felhide Minotaur to protect you
Anyways, my opponents were totally chill and cool. I'm definitely going to try again next time.
Counter magic? I don't think I'd aggro in a BUG list if I didn't have to
You built it as an Aggro deck? I'm running it as Control.
You built it as an Aggro deck? I'm running it as Control.
Midrange, silly
Didn't love the BUG control lists I tested. Mind PMing or posting yours?The ability to run Syncopate (among other countermagic), Prognostic Sphinx, Prime Speaker, Far//Away, etc, made my B/G midrange lists really sweet in testing.
How do you beat aggro?
It's not hard to imagine people will play the stock Kibler Gruul list, swapping the 3/3s for Kalonian Tusker and dragons for the new dragon. Hellrider will be missed, but there are other four drops that can fill the void that aren't hit by Lifebane Zombie. Ember Swallower and Xenagos are examples. They work well together too.
It's not hard to imagine people will play the stock Kibler Gruul list, swapping the 3/3s for Kalonian Tusker and dragons for the new dragon. Hellrider will be missed, but there are other four drops that can fill the void that aren't hit by Lifebane Zombie. Ember Swallower and Xenagos are examples. They work well together too.
Kibler aggro doesn't really exist as it did before with the loss of Flinthoof Boar, Strangleroot Geist, Arbor Elf, Thundermaw Hellkite (stormbreath is likely worse in a list where we'll never ever ever be able to monstrous,) and hellrider.
There's replacements for almost all of them (except 8 new good 2-drops), but none are as good. The good gruul aggro lists I've seen are reliant on Chandra's Phoenix and 1-drops -- pretty much the only cards they have in common with Kibler's world champs list are Scooze, Ghor-Clan, Mortars, and Domri.
How we beat those decks as control -- I still don't really know. Running red for Anger of the Gods is certainly a start, as is playing creatures like Centaur Healer in the sideboard (as always). Ashiok is also pretty decent in these matchups, as you can force your opponent to overextend when drop a boardwipe spell. Short of that, such as in BUG, I ran a critical mass of removal and four Sylvan Caryatids in the main. Not pretty, but it got me to a reasonable -- but not favorable -- matchup.
As midrange, it's pretty damn easy. Your creatures are bigger. Just block.
The format's soooo much slower. But in a good way- decks can't claw on with infinite lifegain effects anymore.
The problem with Revelation, btw, isn't that it's too good. It's that it's too good in conjunction with a million other good lifegain cards (HI THRAGTUSK) in the format.
The problem with Revelation, btw, isn't that it's too good. It's that it's too good in conjunction with a million other good lifegain cards (HI THRAGTUSK) in the format.
I wish I'd realized this before rounding out my playset for new standard. Lifegain is so damn hard to come by, and while Revelation is good, it just doesn't seem to do enough when I can't regularly survive long enough to cast it for 4+.
Control decks need to do more work to impact the board in the first few turns. Ashiok is a HUGE start.
"land, go"
"land, cackler, go"
"land, go"
"land, ash zealot, swing both (magma jet/whatever on zealot, take 2), go"
"land, ashiok, +2, go."
The aggro player is now under a significant amount of pressure.
If they drop Boros Reckoner or a similar card, they leave Ashiok at 3, risking their board advantage being seriously compromised by -2 into Zealot, -3 into Reckoner or Phoenix, or even -1 into Firedrinker Satyr. No line of play here is truly advantageous, as the control player still has the choice of ticking up Ashiok (while saving mana back for removal) or stealing a creature if one is available.
And they'll still be at 18 life at the end of your turn 3.
Even if they drop Chandra's Phoenix and attack, that ashiok has effectively gained you 7 life, and may force your opponent to unnecessarily extend their board next turn in order to kill it on the spot. This sets you up perfectly to drop a boardwipe spell and get some serious advantage.
And you're still almost at full life
That's why I'm going so hard on PWs. Also, tons of redundancy to play around Seize.
Not shocked, that card is fantastic in both selesnya aggro and the naya domri lists.
Both are mind-numbingly boring, so I may be slightly biased when I say I hope they don't end up being very good. Naya Domri remained the 'deck to beat' in my playgroup for long enough that I doubt this will be the case.
(Note for other readers: Fleecemane still isn't a good spec buy, but for people who want to play them now... buy them now.)
I got mine on Amazon.com - they're usually the slowest vendor station of the 3 major ones (Amazon/TCG/Ebay) to react to market movement.
Domri's a big reason to go mono-HP as well.
Mono harry potter?
I wasn't talking about weenies. I'm pretty sure it's not always the correct decision to snap block against gruul what with Ghor Clan Rampager and all. And monstrous is not easy to trigger? Have you played with Figure of Destiny or Kargan Dragonlord?
Ashiok is decent against aggro? You're killing me.
you can be contradictory without being rude y'know
Ashiok is a much worse Jace Beleren.
You're the one who's using hyperbole like Stormbreath Dragon will never get monstrous.
Kibler Gruul shouldn't ever play Cackler or Phoenix. Kibler stated his reasons as to why a few months ago. I'm not sure what list you're using, but it's not the most optimal.
You're the one who's using hyperbole like Stormbreath Dragon will never get monstrous.
Kibler Gruul shouldn't ever play Cackler or Phoenix. Kibler stated his reasons as to why a few months ago. I'm not sure what list you're using, but it's not the most optimal.
Playing against a midrange Red deck, I got a +2 on Ashiok hitting Stormbreath, was able to avoid letting Ashiok take damage (either through a Doom blade, Caryatid or some combo) and then cast the Dragon. The -X is unreal. I love that the card vindicates my CC/ability suite on my GDS2 entry, cause it's basically the same damn thing.
I felt it was made clear that the other gruul list was not kibler aggro -- I separated the two concepts out, and stated the lists only share three cards.
You need to calm down a lot about magic discussions on here. Please be a little more constructive and provide alternatives if you think you've found a flaw in someone's decklists or card choices. Your input is absolutely valued, just as every other poster's should be, but don't keep making kneejerk judgments that others are wrong without doing any playtesting yourself. It's pointless and is effectively trolling.
Instead of getting angry at perceived hyperbole, such as 23-24 land aggro decks never ramping to 7 mana without having won or lost the game already, you might want to state why you believe such. For example, maybe you could state that Kibler Aggro evolved into something slower at Worlds, and the new slowed-down format (combined with better removal) would allow it to shift into something capable of hitting 7.
I'm not angry at you, and I don't dislike you as a poster or a Magic player -- I just think you need to back your opinions up a little more.
I'm not angry.
I think it's amusing that I have to back up my opinions, while you post magical christmas openings and refute with testing results without actually posting relevant information, like win/lose percentages pre/post boarding. It makes you look like a know-it-all and I'm calling you out on it.
Look. Aggro above all is about consistency. When you say your group loves to play the shit out of Naya aggro, in a world without Avacyn Pilgrim and Arbor Elf, with worse manafixing, I'm going to take your testing with a grain of salt. You're saying a version of Gruul plays Chandra's Phoenix, which costs double red. When the deck play one drops like Experiment One and Elvish Mystic, you think it can afford a 1RR that does 2 damage every turn? And that's without taking account Domri Rade, one of the main reasons to play R/G instead of mono, who gets better in a creature heavy deck. Chandra's Phoenix is in total opposites. It needs spells to feed its recursive ability and is a 2/2 which doesn't fight very well with Domri's -2. They contradict each other.
I think it's amusing that I have to back up my opinions, while you post magical christmas openings and refute with testing results without actually posting relevant information, like win/lose percentages pre/post boarding. It makes you look like a know-it-all and I'm calling you out on it.
Look. Aggro above all is about consistency. When you say your group loves to play the shit out of Naya aggro, in a world without Avacyn Pilgrim and Arbor Elf, with worse manafixing, I'm going to take your testing with a grain of salt. You're saying a version of Gruul plays Chandra's Phoenix, which costs double red. When the deck play one drops like Experiment One and Elvish Mystic, you think it can afford a 1RR that does 2 damage every turn? And that's without taking account Domri Rade, one of the main reasons to play R/G instead of mono, who gets better in a creature heavy deck. Chandra's Phoenix is in total opposites. It needs spells to feed its recursive ability and is a 2/2 which doesn't fight very well with Domri's -2. They contradict each other.
Never mind, this isn't a worthwhile discussion. I'd just like you to be a little kinder when you reply to posts on here -- I didn't insult you as a player or call you a know-it-all when you told me you didn't need to test to say my opinions were wrong, because I have a base level of respect for you. If you can't show other people the same, I question why you're even bothering to post on here. It's a goddamn card game. I get excited about it and post opinions. The fact that you're so condescending and rude when you reply to them is making this thread more than a little poisonous, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd like you to be a little nicer.
I also never said my playgroup tested naya aggro anywhere, for the record. This just goes to show you don't actually read my posts before coming to a conclusion, which means I should probably just stop replying.
I also never said my playgroup tested naya aggro anywhere, for the record. This just goes to show you don't actually read my posts before coming to a conclusion, which means I should probably just stop replying.
aaaaaand bought
Giving every single one of your removal spells scry is so awesome.
And your opponents' removal spells give you scry. Probably the most underrated rare in Theros.
I'd go on a little tangent about how awesome it is to have a constructed playable 4-drop that can dodge Mortars, but oh wait -- it can give itself Hexproof too!
The activated deathtouch has yet to do anything but I'm gonna rant about that too because of how damn cool the card is.
The lead designer has OCD and there had to be a number of lines in Theros texboxes divisible by nine.
This is how JTMS got his fourth ability.
JTMS got his fourth ability because Turian was lead developing the set.
After the set release, Turian moved out of R&D into the business side.
There is no way these things weren't related.
Is this true? Holy shit
I don't follow. If your playgroup doesn't play Naya, then how can it be the deck to beat?
But whatever. You don't want to take part of this discussion, because somehow I'm being unreasonable and angry. Woof.
Turian let Tarmogoyf, SFM, and Jace JTMS into the world. MaRo submitted Goyf at 2G and */*. Lead Devs get a lot of leeway/trust (Aaron's said he's probably the only guy who would have pushed Birthing Pod that far.) But with that leeway comes a lot of responsibility.
Sidenote -- I love how difficult it is to properly evaluate cards these days, especially with the introduction of planeswalkers.
Every single spoiler season turns into an unstoppable hype train where everything is simultaneously broken in half and unplayable. Every set is an example of power creep and the next kamigawa.
It's kind of awesome how far the game has come. Even among professional players, cards like Chandra Pyromaster, Boros Reckoner, and Birthing Pod are received in completely different ways. Hell, there wasn't even a consensus in the pro community that Mental Misstep would fundamentally break legacy -- even when something is known to be broken, nobody can agree on exactly how broken it is.
The unquantifiable nature of this game is wonderful, and I think that's why I enjoy it. Even statistics can't really show what a 'best' card or deck is, even for formats like limited -- look at magic online at 9am and 9pm and you'll find two different metagames for M14 draft. One morning you'll play against people who draft rakdos sacrifice decks and play first, one evening the only viable strategy will be U/X.
When metagames can be at various levels of development depending on the fucking time of day, I think we've gotten to the point where Magic is a damn near perfect game.
Another striking difference between metagames is the contrast between GP decklists and MTGO Daily Event decklists. Both are highly competitive, but despite many more matches being played on MTGO, that metagame follows the GP and Pro Tour metagames closer.
The fact that metagames have always been a player construct, entirely changeable by outside events and the attitudes of players, will always baffle me. If I play with competitive players in M14 draft, I'll probably follow signals extremely closely but skew myself towards red, as the competitive community is aware of blue's absurd power and wants to play last.
If I'm playing against players on MTGO in the early morning -- players who aren't aware of the "blue or a deck that can punish blue" aspects of the current draft meta -- it's probably correct to just jam blue or green. But people might still be playing aggro in such an undeveloped metagame. Which means it still might be correct to play first. Or it may just be correct to pick Seacost Drake higher.
My head hurts.
I remember someone here linking a blog during one of the major Modern tournaments where a guy did an in-depth look at single cards and offered speculation as they appeared throughout the weekend. It was around the time RTR came out so there was a lot of stuff to talk about.
Could someone point me to it again.
Could someone point me to it again.
Wow. That's definitely someone very competent at his job.
Damn they should bring him back, he made some nutty shit.
Please be trolling.
He's awful for the game, but I do love the occasional horrendously broken card.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Doesn't the MTGO cube usually start the weekend of the paper pre-release? Am I crazy or did they push it back a week this time?
I ended up drafting M14 just to get my fix last night. My opinion on that format has gone from active hatred to apathy. The power level variations of the various colors makes for some really strange drafts. I can't say that I'm going to be sad to see it go.
Theros looks to be weird though. Drafting IRL this weekend for the first time; I have no idea what to expect.
I ended up drafting M14 just to get my fix last night. My opinion on that format has gone from active hatred to apathy. The power level variations of the various colors makes for some really strange drafts. I can't say that I'm going to be sad to see it go.
Theros looks to be weird though. Drafting IRL this weekend for the first time; I have no idea what to expect.
I love it when something is so bonkers that they have to ban it. No sarcasm.
So with Whip of Erebos you can "unearth" an Aetherling or Obzedat and then exile them with their ability and they keep coming back instead of staying permanently exiled. That seems good. And not *that* unrealistic since your finishers getting countered will probably happen a lot? So, is that interaction, like, a thing for constructed? Or just a good way to make your opponent hate you as you explain how it works.
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