I'd guess that they way they've done it on MTGO would be a model you could look at. Occasional bursts of reprints with things like Masters Editions, but it isn't ever going to just rain dual lands. Though it obviously isn't exactly the same since those sets were the "original printings" for online.
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Magic: the GAFering |OT2|
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
I'd guess that they way they've done it on MTGO would be a model you could look at. Occasional bursts of reprints with things like Masters Editions, but it isn't ever going to just rain dual lands. Though it obviously isn't exactly the same since those sets were the "original printings" for online.
No. Not quickly. Something like Mana Drain, for instance, will likely only ever get a single Judge Foil reprint, if anything.
Instant five to six hundred dollar card.
I'm pretty sure impereal recruiter was a more expensive card than Mana Drain (Italian version is just over 100) before it got reprinted as a judge foil last year.Instant five to six hundred dollar card.
Fragamemnon
Member
Mana Drain isn't actually on the reserved list, BTW. I've been fully expecting a FTV reissue for years now.
The card is filthy in all the fairest ways, and it's awesome. I think it would actually make a very interesting Legacy card simply because it would allow a way for four or five drop spells to get past all the garbage soft counters in the format. The problem with that is that most of those four or five drop spells would be combo cards.
The card is filthy in all the fairest ways, and it's awesome. I think it would actually make a very interesting Legacy card simply because it would allow a way for four or five drop spells to get past all the garbage soft counters in the format. The problem with that is that most of those four or five drop spells would be combo cards.
blindrocket
Member
I read that WotC has filed a trademark for 'Magic Origins'.
Hmmmmmm
Hmmmmmm
I read that WotC has filed a trademark for 'Magic Origins'.
Hmmmmmm
Standard-legal reprint of the reserved list
for sale only at Target
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The biggest problem with removing the Restricted List is the fact that they could be validly sued for doing it. I just can't see any way they'd make more money than they'd lose.
they could be validly sued for doing it
Explain plz Mr. Lawyerman.
They would probably win the lawsuit. But they'd get sued and expend a lot of resources in the process. And public corporations don't like having an unknown like that hanging around.Explain plz Mr. Lawyerman.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They would probably win the lawsuit. But they'd get sued and expend a lot of resources in the process. And public corporations don't like having an unknown like that hanging around.
I think they'd lose, actually. You can't induce someone to act and then go back on it. Its an implied contractual arrangement - people can and do buy things like Black Lotus because Wizards explicitly states they won't reprint it.
I think they'd lose, actually. You can't induce someone to act and then go back on it. Its an implied contractual arrangement - people can and do buy things like Black Lotus because Wizards explicitly states they won't reprint it.
They're not buying the cards from Wizards, though. Does Wizards have a legal responsibility to maintain a second hand market?
ThLunarian
Member
The extent of my legal experience is limited to one semester of Business Law, but I think that in order for a contract to be valid, both sides need to actually get something. Wizards' reserve list promise didn't really get them anything at all.
My hunch is that there are reasons for them to stick with it that aren't related to the law at all, unless there's something major I'm missing.
My hunch is that there are reasons for them to stick with it that aren't related to the law at all, unless there's something major I'm missing.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They're not buying the cards from Wizards, though. Does Wizards have a legal responsibility to maintain a second hand market?
Not unless they institute a list of cards that they won't ever reprint.
What you're talking about is consideration, but consideration can be practically anything. Contract theory in something like this is a lot more complicated, much it due to the nature of implied contracts and much of it due to the nature of promissory estoppel.The extent of my legal experience is limited to one semester of Business Law, but I think that in order for a contract to be valid, both sides need to actually get something. Wizards' reserve list promise didn't really get them anything at all.
My hunch is that there are reasons for them to stick with it that aren't related to the law at all, unless there's something major I'm missing.
Lawsuit = unbounded expense.The extent of my legal experience is limited to one semester of Business Law, but I think that in order for a contract to be valid, both sides need to actually get something. Wizards' reserve list promise didn't really get them anything at all.
My hunch is that there are reasons for them to stick with it that aren't related to the law at all, unless there's something major I'm missing.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Lawsuit = unbounded expense.
Its not just that, there's a valid theory in promissory estoppel (e.g. if I make a promise to do something and you act to your detriment based on that promise, you have an action). Not to mention the way U.S. contractual law works isn't necessarily how it works in other countries.
Revoking the reserved list would give their corporate attorneys a heart attack. My guess is that the chance of it ever happening is something like 0, really. I honestly imagine there's probably someone out there would would sue them if they took Kookus off the list.
Past in Flames v Seething Song and DRS v BBE have been two big ones.
Golgari Grave Troll vs Dread Return in the community cup modern banlist.
I have absolutely no idea what they were thinking.
I find it interesting how they stretch the rules of it. Reverberate from M11 is basically the same as Fork, with the only difference being that Fork makes the card Red. Could we get Ancestral Recall reprinted if it was Arcane? How about the original dual lands if they were Snow covered?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Of course, they could arguably get away with it by just making new cards and changing them in inconsequential ways, e.g. a Mox Pearl that is an Enchantment Artifact that is white but costs 0 to cast would mostly have the same effect, but would technically not violate the RL policy. That's basically what they did with Reverberate.
Of course, they could arguably get away with it by just making new cards and changing them in inconsequential ways, e.g. a Mox Pearl that is an Enchantment Artifact that is white but costs 0 to cast would mostly have the same effect, but would technically not violate the RL policy. That's basically what they did with Reverberate.
Couldn't they just do functional reprints?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Couldn't they just do functional reprints?
No, the reserved list states they won't functionally reprint things.
WOTC's policy is that "A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness." They can make things better if they wanted to, though.
Example: They can't reprint Fork, a RR instant that copies a sorcery or instant, but the effect stays red, but they can print Reverberate, which do the same thing, but the effect isn't red. Twincast (the blue version) could even have the same effect color stipulation because its requires blue mana and not red, and thus not functionally equivalent.
They could always print Moxes that produce 2 mana at the same cost if they really wanted to.
They have taken cards off the list in the past. They had a vote to take the non-rares from beta off the list, like Clone, Juggernaut and Demonic Tutor (this was over 10 years ago though) http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb9
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They have taken cards off the list in the past. They had a vote to take the non-rares from beta off the list, like Clone, Juggernaut and Demonic Tutor (this was over 10 years ago though) http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb9
I like the part where he says there's no way they'd ever reprint Psionic Blast.
Reverberate isn't actually a functional reprint because it makes the copy red, it's silly but yeah they can do those things.
Snow-Covered Tundra is 100% printable. It's so stupid.
Its the other way around, but yeah that was my point - its not functional because it does something different, even if its largely inconsequential - I mean, you can Fork a Terror onto a creature with Protection from Black, but you can't Fork a Terror onto a creature with Protection from Red, so its not exactly the same thing.
crimsonspider89
Banned
Swan Song, Young Pyromancer, Spirit of the Labyrinth. Swan Song one of the best eternal format counterspells printed since Spell Pierce. The latter two are very good role players in a couple of decks in Vintage that needed some help (Gush Control/Tempo and white based null rod hatebears).
They are still pumping them out, IMO.
edit: I can beat Delver all day. The problem is that the blue tempo and midrange decks have nothing to fear from non-blue midrange decks, which have always been their natural predators. When Knight of the Reliquary decks can't reliably beat a brainstorm deck that isn't combo, format is busted.
I can beat Delver but reason why people hate these formats is the format depends entirely on draw much more so than other metas.
Just sucks to play from an interactive and thinking perspective. Makes the game too flowcharty for most people.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Past in Flames v Seething Song and DRS v BBE have been two big ones.
What's remarkable about Past in Flames is that it's actually better than Yawgmoth's Will would be in Modern Storm. It still kinda blows my mind that PiF has flashback.
That being said, I continue to be a proponent for Storm being a player in Modern. I really like Finkel's last article; why we okay with Twin and Living End doing their fairly linear and uninteresting combo, but the actual skill-intensive combo deck is somehow not good for the format?
Also, while twin is an infinite, storm is finite.What's remarkable about Past in Flames is that it's actually better than Yawgmoth's Will would be in Modern Storm. It still kinda blows my mind that PiF has flashback.
That being said, I continue to be a proponent for Storm being a player in Modern. I really like Finkel's last article; why we okay with Twin and Living End doing their fairly linear and uninteresting combo, but the actual skill-intensive combo deck is somehow not good for the format?
blindrocket
Member
I'm one of those n00bs that would pass on Past in Flames without a second thought.
I mean I see that's it's good, but isn't it just a really expensive Snapcaster Mage?
OR, maybe I should look up what Storm is because there is more to what the card does than just judging it at face value?
I've learned a crap ton about Magic and the various decks within the past six to eight months but Storm isn't something I've seen come up enough to really learn much about it. I've heard about it, but really just in reading comments like what has been said.
I mean I see that's it's good, but isn't it just a really expensive Snapcaster Mage?
OR, maybe I should look up what Storm is because there is more to what the card does than just judging it at face value?
I've learned a crap ton about Magic and the various decks within the past six to eight months but Storm isn't something I've seen come up enough to really learn much about it. I've heard about it, but really just in reading comments like what has been said.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm one of those n00bs that would pass on Past in Flames without a second thought.
I mean I see that's it's good, but isn't it just a really expensive Snapcaster Mage?
OR, maybe I should look up what Storm is because there is more to what the card does than just judging it at face value?
Definitely look up what storm is, bwahahahaha
What's remarkable about Past in Flames is that it's actually better than Yawgmoth's Will would be in Modern Storm. It still kinda blows my mind that PiF has flashback.
That being said, I continue to be a proponent for Storm being a player in Modern. I really like Finkel's last article; why we okay with Twin and Living End doing their fairly linear and uninteresting combo, but the actual skill-intensive combo deck is somehow not good for the format?
Because of the association the deck and the mechanic has with it's Legacy and Type 1 big brothers and the stigma of Storm in general. It's bullshit, since the deck is perfectly fine without being overpowering at the moment, but with the people in charge right now it's gonna happen.
I'm one of those n00bs that would pass on Past in Flames without a second thought.
I mean I see that's it's good, but isn't it just a really expensive Snapcaster Mage?
OR, maybe I should look up what Storm is because there is more to what the card does than just judging it at face value?
I've learned a crap ton about Magic and the various decks within the past six to eight months but Storm isn't something I've seen come up enough to really learn much about it. I've heard about it, but really just in reading comments like what has been said.
Watch some feature matches with good players piloting the deck
blindrocket
Member
Ohhhhh, it's a kill by Grapeshot? I've died to that before on MTGO.
EDIT: I also see another version with Empty the Warrens which I've seen played on an official Stream.
Okay, I guess I am more familiar with this deck than I thought.
EDIT: I also see another version with Empty the Warrens which I've seen played on an official Stream.
Okay, I guess I am more familiar with this deck than I thought.
divisionbyzorro
Member
The problem with storm is the crap you have to track. Especially if you have to reverse-engineer it.
Oh, mechanically Modern Storm is a nightmare to play in paper. I agree that from a pure mechanics perspective, Storm is a terrible design that shouldn't exist in its current form. But from a conceptual perspective I love it - it's a mechanic that rewards you for playing spells over creatures, which enables an entire strategy that would otherwise not actually exist. And that personally excites me.
But yes - when the best players in the game are pulling out their iPhones on feature matches to track Storm and mana floating, that does speak to a level of mechanical complexity that reeks of bad design.
Fragamemnon
Member
Gentlemen, make it at item on your MTG bucket list to resolve Mind's Desire in a Vintage tournament, and take the time to properly resolve each copy.
The experience is exquisite.
The experience is exquisite.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Quick question: does gods willing cast as pro blue protect against tidebinder mage's tapping ability?
Yes, but only while the trigger is on the stack. Once it's already happened, God's Willing won't undo the effect.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/taking-modern-by-storm/
Dat palpable salt.
Though I have no idea what they actually ban from the deck at this point. Past in Flames seems like the only card they can ban that isn't a total embarrassment
Forsythe's response: https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/441317985911701505 and https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/441319787960860673
The person who had final say on TNN no longer works there. Read into that what you will.
Are you talking about Billy Moreno? He left to go start a family with his wife in Texas (if I recall the place correctly). Let's try to not start rumors or insinuate unnecessary things.
I'm thinking of making a poor man's Storm deck without the fetchlands. Currently it runs 16 lands:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Shivan Reef
2 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
For casual play I was thinking of doing this:
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
I foresee a few mulligans and Sulfur Falls will come in tapped to Shivan Reef. What this deck needs is Island/Mountain Scar lands, which aren't a real thing at the moment.
I was thinking of doing this because sans mana base the deck is $100. I might try it anyways. I'm not playing in big tournaments anyways and it will be cheap to assemble and fun to play on the side every now and again. And since reprints of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest are inevitable, I'll just grab those when they are reprinted again... provided Storm isn't banned out of existence in the meantime, of course.
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Shivan Reef
2 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
For casual play I was thinking of doing this:
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
I foresee a few mulligans and Sulfur Falls will come in tapped to Shivan Reef. What this deck needs is Island/Mountain Scar lands, which aren't a real thing at the moment.
I was thinking of doing this because sans mana base the deck is $100. I might try it anyways. I'm not playing in big tournaments anyways and it will be cheap to assemble and fun to play on the side every now and again. And since reprints of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest are inevitable, I'll just grab those when they are reprinted again... provided Storm isn't banned out of existence in the meantime, of course.
ThLunarian
Member
I'm thinking of making a poor man's Storm deck without the fetchlands. Currently it runs 16 lands:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Shivan Reef
2 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
For casual play I was thinking of doing this:
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
I foresee a few mulligans and Sulfur Falls will come in tapped to Shivan Reef. What this deck needs is Island/Mountain Scar lands, which aren't a real thing at the moment.
I was thinking of doing this because sans mana base the deck is $100. I might try it anyways. I'm not playing in big tournaments anyways and it will be cheap to assemble and fun to play on the side every now and again. And since reprints of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest are inevitable, I'll just grab those when they are reprinted again... provided Storm isn't banned out of existence in the meantime, of course.
I don't think you'll have too many problems with that mana base. The Shivan Reef/Sulfur Falls thing should only be relevant if you have an only-Reef opening hand and draw a Falls on your first or second draw step. I've also read articles that run the numbers and conclude that the deck-thinning from fetchlands is so minimal as to be statistically insignificant. From the lists I've seen, I don't think Storm has any top-of-the-library manipulation so you're not losing out on that front either.
I've built the deck on MtgVault and I'm seeing what you mean. It's not that bad, the Shivan Reef / Sulfur Falls hand doesn't actually drop all that often.I don't think you'll have too many problems with that mana base. The Shivan Reef/Sulfur Falls thing should only be relevant if you have an only-Reef opening hand and draw a Falls on your first or second draw step. I've also read articles that run the numbers and conclude that the deck-thinning from fetchlands is so minimal as to be statistically insignificant. From the lists I've seen, I don't think Storm has any top-of-the-library manipulation so you're not losing out on that front either.
4xShivan Reef
4xSteam Vents
4xSulfur Falls
Are all roughly $65-$80 together. Steam Vents and Sulfur Falls are prevalent enough for me to earn on trade but I'll have to buy the Shivan Reefs. So for under $200 I can make a deck that all my friends will hate me for if I learn to pilot it well.
I think Pyromancer Ascension and Past in Flames are the only cards I need aside from the mana base.
I'm going to have to watch a lot more Storm matches if I want to make this work. It's no where near as straight forward as burn or aggro. I'm a noob in the grand scheme of things anyways, so there's always that.1 landers should be keepable in Storm and not being able to Serum Visions turn 1 is huge.
Also it probably isn't a great deck for casual play, it's very hard.
I'm thinking of making a poor man's Storm deck without the fetchlands. Currently it runs 16 lands:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Shivan Reef
2 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
For casual play I was thinking of doing this:
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
I foresee a few mulligans and Sulfur Falls will come in tapped to Shivan Reef. What this deck needs is Island/Mountain Scar lands, which aren't a real thing at the moment.
I was thinking of doing this because sans mana base the deck is $100. I might try it anyways. I'm not playing in big tournaments anyways and it will be cheap to assemble and fun to play on the side every now and again. And since reprints of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest are inevitable, I'll just grab those when they are reprinted again... provided Storm isn't banned out of existence in the meantime, of course.
I would try 4x Evolving Wilds and Teramorphic and run more basics. They are better than Sulfur Falls, and the thinning of the deck is actually important.
I'm going to have to watch a lot more Storm matches if I want to make this work. It's no where near as straight forward as burn or aggro. I'm a noob in the grand scheme of things anyways, so there's always that.
Don't just watch games, goldfish whenever you can. If you have never played a complicated combo deck before- I'm talking in the vein of ProsBloom, Heartbeat and ANT and not Twin or Scapeshift- you are going to need a lot of practice to play the deck. Its not easy- even Jon fucking Finkle, the best player ever, sometimes has issues with it-, and to most people it doesn't even feel like Magic, but it is a rewarding experience.
Remember when goldfishing to try 6, 5, and 4 card hands as well- if your only practicing 7 card hands, any Mulligan is going to kill you. Also keep hands and discard the best card from it to simulate being Thoughtsiezed, ect