• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Magic: the GAFering |OT2|

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
The problem is that beyond getting a feel for a deck's playstyle, it doesn't let you know if it's any good.

Not sure what use "Deck sucks bro" is supposed to be here. Okay, it sucks. Why do you think it sucks? Is there no room for messing around with deck builds, or should only established decks be played?

I'm sincerely confused as to why a deck build post drew such immediate negativity here.
 
Here's a fun new common from Dragon's Maze:

Zhur-Taa Druid - RG
Creature: Human Druid (Common)
{T}: Add {G} to your mana pool.
Whenever you tap ~ for mana, ~ deals 1 damage to each opponent.
1/1
 

kirblar

Member
Not sure what use "Deck sucks bro" is supposed to be here. Okay, it sucks. Why do you think it sucks? Is there no room for messing around with deck builds, or should only established decks be played?

I'm sincerely confused as to why a deck build post drew such immediate negativity here.
I'm not commenting on the deck, I'm commenting on the means of playtesting.

Biggest issue w/ BUG Zombies has seemed to be the Mana, though, especially if attempting shenanigans with W. Madness.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I'm not commenting on the deck, I'm commenting on the means of playtesting.

Biggest issue w/ BUG Zombies has seemed to be the Mana, though, especially if attempting shenanigans with W. Madness.

My general workflow has been to playtest on MTGO, then take it to FNM. I've had pretty good results with that. I'm still unsure as to how else you're expected to playtest a deck. Once you're in a tournament, isn't the time for playtesting over and the time for just playing beginning? Isn't that what a tournament signifies? I don't really fuck around with brews when I want to win. For instance, if I were to play right now, I'd be playing the R/G aggro deck that I know is good.

As to the mana issues with BUG zombies, I haven't seen them personally. Honestly, the mana is so awesome across the board right now that it's going to be quite the shock to really have to dial back the craziness later on when this mana base rotates out.

Who has a good BUG zombies list with Madness in it? I haven't even seen this deck being played at all, to be honest. What good would Madness even do in it?
 
do you have any idea how good it is for you to have a sorcery speed searing spear hit your two drop and give you a token after?
Why worry about removing it? It's a 2/2. If you had a strong desire for your two-drop to leave behind a body, Strangleroot Geist exists. The haste + guaranteed 3/2 is almost certainly going to be better than a Hidden Gibbons punisher mechanic.

I mean for all the flash in today's meta, this is still isn't nearly as bad as Faeries standard, where Eyes of the Wisent was still completely irrelevant. The punish instants mechanic has never been much good... Even things that actually properly shut down instant speed stuff on your turn- City of solitude, grand abolisher, Dosan- are niche sideboard material or occasional silver bullets.
 

rCIZZLE

Member
There is no reason to unban dredge. It adds almost nothing to the format except Storm 2.0 that requires different hate and means fair decks have to constantly worry about multiple different non-interactive kills when making sideboards and pack them with otherwise irrelevant shit instead of using them for actually interesting things.

Dredge outside of vintage is just a dumb deck that beats people up for trying to play normal magic. Vintage is already not normal magic so it can chill there.

The reason to unban it is there's no good reason to have it banned. Doesn't have the pieces that makes legacy/vintage dredge a turn 1-3 potential kill. Incredibly easy to hate and doesn't even require dedicated sideboard slots. Hell, I'm sure we could come up with a pretty hefty list of MB cards that are very interactive with and often destroy dredge.

Dredge really isn't even that good in legacy either. It has a pretty poor win percentage despite having access to LED, breakthrough, careful study, ichorid, putrid imp, cabal therapy, etc. It's a fun deck that provides unique decisions and situations that don't happen in your typical snorefest of "x/x aggro vs x/x control".
 

kirblar

Member
The problem with Dredge is that like Storm, it's near-impossible for many decks to interact with in G1, and they must rely on SB cards for G2/G3. It's not a good dynamic. GGT is a card that, while probably ok, they're not going to be rushing to unban anytime soon. It'll be one of the "eh, we haven't changed the list in a while" unban cards.
 
Ahh...ahhahahaa...worst counterspell ever printed?

y3ambw1jkv_EN.jpg


...WEIRD card

nale7d44cv_EN.jpg
 

kirblar

Member
I suspect Putrefy being in means Murder is cut from M14 and they needed instant-speed removal for things like Obzedat/Aetherling. Otherwise, a really weird reprint.
 

rCIZZLE

Member
The problem with Dredge is that like Storm, it's near-impossible for many decks to interact with in G1, and they must rely on SB cards for G2/G3. It's not a good dynamic. GGT is a card that, while probably ok, they're not going to be rushing to unban anytime soon. It'll be one of the "eh, we haven't changed the list in a while" unban cards.

Every deck has bad matchups which is essential for a healthy format. Sideboard helps to correct those bad matchups. I'm having trouble thinking of some decks that can't contend with modern-legal (if DR and GGT were unbanned, of course) dredge even in game 1.
 

rCIZZLE

Member
Not surprised to see a card from a popular deck added to the banned list. Very good business decision.

Dredge doesn't need help.

Dredge isn't even a deck so yes it needs help in the form of unbannings or new cards.

edit: ^ i'm really liking skylasher too. that'll definitely find a place eventually if not initially.
 

ultron87

Member
4eiaad6r8k_EN.jpg


Ahh that thing creeps me out so much. I also expect that is the "in case we some how didn't fix Delver yet" card.

Also horrific:

ayvg4v2m1s_EN.jpg
 
Dredge isn't even a deck so yes it needs help in the form of unbannings or new cards.

The fact we have an eternal format without that bullshit not-playing-Magic deck is not a defect or oversight, but a feature. If you want to play Dredge, you can do so in Vintage or Legacy, provided you can find anyone that actually wants to test with you (I don't because I know how to beat that stupid deck in both formats).

The best part of Vintage tournaments that doesn't involve snapcaster mage and ancestral recall is watching the less experienced Dredge players eat game losses due to repeated self-inflicted game rule violations.

edit: The rest of the set is fitting to spoilers-as someone on the source mentioned- " lazy, phoned in, and with an extra mana tacked on to everything.".
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Skylasher screams "kills Geist of St Traft" to me.



I thought the same thing except your example is an instant. This one is sorcery speed lol
Oh my, I didn't notice that.
 

rCIZZLE

Member
The fact we have an eternal format without that bullshit not-playing-Magic deck is not a defect or oversight, but a feature. If you want to play Dredge, you can do so in Vintage or Legacy, provided you can find anyone that actually wants to test with you (I don't because I know how to beat that stupid deck in both formats).

The best part of Vintage tournaments that doesn't involve snapcaster mage and ancestral recall is watching the less experienced Dredge players eat game losses due to repeated self-inflicted game rule violations.

Why wouldn't someone want to playtest against my dredge deck? Our group has plenty of belcher, high tide, show and tell variants, and other combo decks which are pretty essential to have some knowledge about. I find Jund a lot less fun to both play with and against.

Everybody knows how to beat dredge except bad players which is obvious through the poor win percentages.

Modern dredge and legacy dredge would be completely different so of course I want a place to express some creativity with one of my favorite game mechanics. Dredge would be tier 2 at best, like it is in legacy, and doesn't need to remain banned out of the format.
 

Yeef

Member
n1588hd72b_EN.jpg


Maybe the worst removal ever?
This card actually interests me, design-wise. It's rare that red gets "destroy target creature" these days. I'd love to see red frequenty get more interesting blocking-hate than "can't block" effects. The Rakdos skeleton dude is another step in a the same direction:

0irc0vr22w_EN.jpg
 

Hero

Member
Not surprised to see a card from a popular deck added to the banned list. Very good business decision.



Dredge isn't even a deck so yes it needs help in the form of unbannings or new cards.

edit: ^ i'm really liking skylasher too. that'll definitely find a place eventually if not initially.

Why wouldn't someone want to playtest against my dredge deck? Our group has plenty of belcher, high tide, show and tell variants, and other combo decks which are pretty essential to have some knowledge about. I find Jund a lot less fun to both play with and against.

Everybody knows how to beat dredge except bad players which is obvious through the poor win percentages.

Modern dredge and legacy dredge would be completely different so of course I want a place to express some creativity with one of my favorite game mechanics. Dredge would be tier 2 at best, like it is in legacy, and doesn't need to remain banned out of the format.

Dredge in the terms you are referring to it is another form of MtG masturbation since for the most part there is virtually no interaction from the other player before sideboard. There is no reason for them to make the Dredge deck that you are talking about viable in Modern other than to satisfy an extremely small amount of players while frustrating and upsetting a large majority. They are trying to create and foster a new eternal format and they can't do that with unfair decks that have to be attacked at specific angles from every other deck. It's ludicrous to expect them to unban GGT and Dread Return when things like Wild Nacatl and Bloodbraid Elf are too powerful for the format.
 
Dredge in the terms you are referring to it is another form of MtG masturbation since for the most part there is virtually no interaction from the other player before sideboard. There is no reason for them to make the Dredge deck that you are talking about viable in Modern other than to satisfy an extremely small amount of players while frustrating and upsetting a large majority. They are trying to create and foster a new eternal format and they can't do that with unfair decks that have to be attacked at specific angles from every other deck. It's ludicrous to expect them to unban GGT and Dread Return when things like Wild Nacatl and Bloodbraid Elf are too powerful for the format.

Wild Nacatl and Bloodbraid Elf were not banned for power reasons. They were banned to promote metagame diversity. Both bans were successful on that level; the number of Rock variants that continue to sprout up in Modern speaks to how successful the BBE ban was, for example.

Dread Return is banned to prevent the full-on dredge engine from being viable in Modern. The main reason (IMO) why that deck is bad for the format is the pressure that it puts on sideboards. If you don't have a sideboard that can fight dredge, you lose. There shouldn't be a deck in the format that's a bad matchup for every other deck preboard and a dog to every deck that boards against it. That's not where we want modern to be.

Eggs is similar, except the stuff you bring in to fight Eggs is stuff that you would bring in for any number of matchups. You can attack it on multiple angles (artifact hate, graveyard hate, rule of law effects, etc) with cards that also attack other decks (artifact hate for robots, grave hate for Gifts, etcs). Targeted discard also works against it. In that sense, Eggs was a healthy "villain" combo deck for the format. The problem was that the deck just plays with itself for 20-30 minutes each match, and that is not healthy for the game.
 

rCIZZLE

Member
Dredge in the terms you are referring to it is another form of MtG masturbation since for the most part there is virtually no interaction from the other player before sideboard. There is no reason for them to make the Dredge deck that you are talking about viable in Modern other than to satisfy an extremely small amount of players while frustrating and upsetting a large majority. They are trying to create and foster a new eternal format and they can't do that with unfair decks that have to be attacked at specific angles from every other deck. It's ludicrous to expect them to unban GGT and Dread Return when things like Wild Nacatl and Bloodbraid Elf are too powerful for the format.

Decks don't run removal, sweepers, DRS, or counters? Among other things, of course. That's also just interaction with the potential modern legal cards which actually isn't that big of a shell.

The reason to make it viable is to diversify the format. To give people more decks to brew, buy cards for, and play with. Why would this upset the large majority? Unless you're talking about the trend following idiots who hate dredge simply because other people hate dredge.

Have you ever played the deck or at least seen it played? A GRIM LAVAMANCER, for example, can wreck the gameplan.

Dread Return is banned to prevent the full-on dredge engine from being viable in Modern. The main reason (IMO) why that deck is bad for the format is the pressure that it puts on sideboards. If you don't have a sideboard that can fight dredge, you lose. There shouldn't be a deck in the format that's a bad matchup for every other deck preboard and a dog to every deck that boards against it. That's not where we want modern to be.

They prevented the full dredge engine when they drew the line at 8th edition. Ichorid, putrid imp, cabal therapy, LED, breakthrough, careful study, etc...

Dredge puts pressure on decks that don't run counters, removal, DRS, or sweepers, among other things, MB. They would have a bad matchup... many decks have bad matchups, it's not the end of the world. Sideboard gives some silver bullets for those rare decks.
 

Hero

Member
Wild Nacatl and Bloodbraid Elf were not banned for power reasons. They were banned to promote metagame diversity. Both bans were successful on that level; the number of Rock variants that continue to sprout up in Modern speaks to how successful the BBE ban was, for example.

Power level and homogenization go hand in hand. The correct call on power level for Modern Jund was Deathrite Shaman but that's selling packs of RTR so they needed something else to go for and BBE wouldn't effect other decks. It's essentially the same with GGT and DR. Those cards being banned doesn't hurt other decks besides Dredge but takes away the backbone of the deck.

Dread Return is banned to prevent the full-on dredge engine from being viable in Modern. The main reason (IMO) why that deck is bad for the format is the pressure that it puts on sideboards. If you don't have a sideboard that can fight dredge, you lose. There shouldn't be a deck in the format that's a bad matchup for every other deck preboard and a dog to every deck that boards against it. That's not where we want modern to be.

Agreed. It's silly that people think there should be a deck that's allowed to exist that to have any chance of fighting against it you must dedicated a decent amount of sideboard cards towards it.

Eggs is similar, except the stuff you bring in to fight Eggs is stuff that you would bring in for any number of matchups. You can attack it on multiple angles (artifact hate, graveyard hate, rule of law effects, etc) with cards that also attack other decks (artifact hate for robots, grave hate for Gifts, etcs). Targeted discard also works against it. In that sense, Eggs was a healthy "villain" combo deck for the format. The problem was that the deck just plays with itself for 20-30 minutes each match, and that is not healthy for the game.

It wasn't healthy for the game but it was also destroying competitive tournaments and just ruining everyone else's day. Brian Kiblar AFKing his game against Eggs recently was hilarious.

Decks don't run removal, sweepers, DRS, or counters? Among other things, of course. That's also just interaction with the potential modern legal cards which actually isn't that big of a shell.

Are you seriously trying to say that decks running removal or counters justifies that people should factor in graveyard hate?

The reason to make it viable is to diversify the format. To give people more decks to brew, buy cards for, and play with. Why would this upset the large majority? Unless you're talking about the trend following idiots who hate dredge simply because other people hate dredge.

Pretty sure the format is doing just fine in terms of diversity.

Have you ever played the deck or at least seen it played? A GRIM LAVAMANCER, for example, can wreck the gameplan.

What kind of argument is this? I have Legacy Dredge. Even if I didn't that doesn't mean someone who hasn't played the deck can't have a valid criticism of it.
 

rCIZZLE

Member
Agreed. It's silly that people think there should be a deck that's allowed to exist that to have any chance of fighting against it you must dedicated a decent amount of sideboard cards towards it.

Completely untrue.

Are you seriously trying to say that decks running removal or counters justifies that people should factor in graveyard hate?

I'm saying removal and counters severely disrupts dredges gameplan. Some sideboard cards like relic, RiP, tormod's, and leyline of the void aren't even specific for this matchup, either.

Pretty sure the format is doing just fine in terms of diversity.

It could always be better.

What kind of argument is this? I have Legacy Dredge. Even if I didn't that doesn't mean someone who hasn't played the deck can't have a valid criticism of it.

But the criticism isn't valid. You said "for the most part there is virtually no interaction" in G1. I gave examples why that's not true. I was just assuming you possibly saw a legacy dredge deck get the nuts and win uncontested on turn 1 then figured that's how it'd be in modern.
 

JulianImp

Member
I'm looking at the spoiler and... it looks like the remaining cards weren't pretty.

Dimir got nothing other than Notion Thief, which isn't even that good in a base-Dimir deck, and the two cipher cards they added were even more underpowered than Gatecrash's!

The other guilds mostly got a few interesting cards each, at least, but most of the goodies appear to be on rare or mythic cards, except for a few exceptions. Each guild did get a useful common or two (even if it's just for casual use), and several uncommons look playable.

It's odd how the only reprints after Putrefy were Feral Animist and Wind Drake. They said on MTG.com how the 2RW Helix is a kind-of reprint, as is the new Armadillo Cloak, but which other cards are pseudo-reprints?
 

OnPoint

Member
Yeah, the only things I noticed I really liked were Skylasher and that new BW lifedrain spell. It's really not an exciting set at all.
 
Top Bottom