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[Santiako]

Ah, so we're saying <> can only be paid with a colorless source. That clears things up substantially. Cheers.

Yeah. You can use 2 Rishadan ports and 8 forests to pay for Kozilek, but not 10 forests.

 

[WanderingWind]

I think you're confused about the rules. The current basic lands (mountain and the rest) can't tap for colorless. They only tap for their associated color.

There's a difference between generic mana and colorless mana.

Generic Mana can only appear in costs. It just means "use whatever type of mana you want for this part of the cost."

Colorless Mana, until now, only appeared in abilities that generated it. If <> is the colorless mana symbol what it means is you can only used colorless mana for it; it's not generic mana, you can't use colored mana to pay for it.

Nah, not confused over rules, just terminology that really hasn't mattered until now. Well, I'm sure it's mattered at some point, but not to the extent we're talking about here.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Because <> is necessary to make a clean full art land.

No...? You can just put a (1) in the little space.

Also, for costs.

I actually really like &#9830; as a symbol for "You can only pay this cost with colorless mana."

Having both side by side eases the transition.

You're going to draft the set and have some cards that say "I tap for (1)" and some cards that say "I tap for &#9830;" and that's helpful to remember that they're the same?

 

[Firemind]

Ah, so we're saying <> can only be paid with a colorless source. That clears things up substantially. Cheers.

This is why eldrazi mana is a dumb name. Well, eldrazi is a dumb name in general.

 

[kirblar]

If you're introducing a colorless mana symbol, you treat it like all the other mana symbols. That includes lands.

 

[WanderingWind]

Yeah, Kozilek's casting cost is the key to the whole thing.

Yeah. You can use 2 Rishadan ports and 8 forests to pay for Kozilek, but not 10 forests.

Alles klar!

 

[Jaeyden]

Colorless Mana, until now, only appeared in abilities that generated it. If <> is the colorless mana symbol what it means is you can only used colorless mana for it; it's not generic mana, you can't use colored mana to pay for it.

Pretty much this right here. It's why Kosileks casting cost reads 8 generic mana and 2 colorless.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Herr Kommissar?

 

[WanderingWind]

Well, now that's settled, what do we think the new Rishadan Port art is going to look like?

Herr Kommissar?

Heh.

 

[kirblar]

Well, now that's settled, what do we think the new Rishadan Port art is going to look like?

Didn't we have a judge promo leak?

 

[ultron87]

I would've really liked it if Kozilek's Channeler and Hedron Archive had said "Add <> <> to your mana pool" in BFZ, but then we didn't actually see stuff with that in the cost till Oath.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I would've really liked it if Kozilek's Channeler and Hedron Archive had said "Add <> <> to your mana pool" in BFZ, but then we didn't actually see stuff with that in the cost till Oath.

The problem is that you can't use the card at all if you don't know what &#9830; is.

So you believe that Sol Ring now reads: Add (<>)(<>) to your mana pool?

I'm pretty sure you don't add boobs with pasties on them to your mana pool no.

But essentially yes, I would think that's how it would work. The other option is that &#9830; is Void Mana (i.e. colorless snow mana), which is fine, its just way more parasitic and insular to this specific set.

 

[ultron87]

The problem is that you can't use the card at all if you don't know what &#9830; is.

Well obviously they'd have to say "this means colorless mana now" either in a rules update or wherever just like they will have to before these cards come out. This is assuming that they're going to actually Oracle everything to use the symbol now.

 

[WanderingWind]

Tropical Wastes
Land - Forest Island Waste
T: Add <>
T: Add G or U

Book it, baby.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The problem is that you can't use the card at all if you don't know what &#9830; is.

I'm pretty sure you don't add boobs with pasties on them to your mana pool no.

But essentially yes, I would think that's how it would work. The other option is that &#9830; is Void Mana (i.e. colorless snow mana), which is fine, its just way more parasitic and insular to this specific set.

That's what I fear, and to the former not like they haven't done similar stuff before.

Friend and I pulled 2 Eye of Ugins in WW and were pretty confused what they do.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

But essentially yes, I would think that's how it would work. The other option is that &#9830; is Void Mana (i.e. colorless snow mana), which is fine, its just way more parasitic and insular to this specific set.

Oh, you mean like the rest of the block?

Spoiler

I assume my intense hatred for this block is practically oozing out of your monitors/phones/tablets at this point.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I still maintain BFZ has interesting stuff in it that just gets overshadowed by Khans of Tarkir being overpowered.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I'm pretty sure all this is why Wizards doesn't like stuff to leak.

 

[OnPoint]

I'm pretty sure you don't add boobs with pasties on them to your mana pool no.

Don't give me shit for what I'm into. I don't give you shit for being an asshole

 

[OnPoint]

Tropical Wastes
Land - Forest Island Waste
T: Add <>
T: Add G or U

Book it, baby.

You think they'll do strictly better duals?

Doesn't this fly in the face of the reserved list?

 

[WanderingWind]

I still maintain BFZ has interesting stuff in it that just gets overshadowed by Khans of Tarkir being overpowered.

Scientists have proven that BFZ is actually worse than those people who still have the stick figure families on the back of their cars like anybody gives a fuck that they mastered the art of breeding.

You think they'll do strictly better duals?

Doesn't this fly in the face of the reserved list?

Not a functional reprint, not a loophole creation. Psh. Totes doable. And of course, I'm joking. They could do it. But they won't because those lands are powerful and fun and allow for all sorts of deck creation across multiple formats, and modern Magic design just doesn't allow for those types of shenanigans.

I'm pretty sure all this is why Wizards doesn't like stuff to leak.

I'd be stoked that people are this interested in my product. Especially after the critical failure of BFZ. Your ass is only as funky as your last cut, remember?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You think they'll do strictly better duals?

Doesn't this fly in the face of the reserved list?

Will of Force

You may pay 1 life and discard a blue card from your hand rather than pay Force of Will's mana cost.
Counter target spell.

 

[charlequin]

Huh? Kozilek's Channeler costs 5 colorless.

My point was just that if you have one in play, you've guaranteed you can pay the constrained part of Kozilek's cost, the <><>.

BTW, this makes it backwards compatible with the eldrazi drones/scions. That's hugely important.

Yeah this is the single biggest reason I feel confident this isn't a special kind of mana. If it was going to work that way it'd really have to be supported in the first set on things like the Scions.

Didn't we have a judge promo leak?

We did. It's weird, the Judge promo series is numbered 1-8 for 2015, but the mailings that went out only had 4-8 in them. Rishadan Port is 3, I think we have no idea what 1-2 are, or any idea how/when they'll distribute them. Maybe it'll wind up like the Entomb from a few years ago.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I'm pretty sure all this is why Wizards doesn't like stuff to leak.

Agreed.

 

[OnPoint]

Not a functional reprint, not a loophole creation. Psh. Totes doable. And of course, I'm joking. They could do it. But they won't because those lands are powerful and fun and allow for all sorts of deck creation across multiple formats, and modern Magic design just doesn't allow for those types of shenanigans.

I'd love if they did it, but gave me a heads up so I could sell my duals.

Will of Force

You may pay 1 life and discard a blue card from your hand rather than pay Force of Will's mana cost.
Counter target spell.

Here's the art for it.

 

[ultron87]

It'll be weird to have "colorless" devoid creatures, colorless creatures and colorless <> creatures all around at once.

 

[WanderingWind]

Shit, to be honest, the whole uncertainty is the best part of this whole thing. I want WotC to take chances like this. More <>, less "I guess this is like sunburst or whatever, I dunno who gives a fuck."

 

[kirblar]

I still maintain BFZ has interesting stuff in it that just gets overshadowed by Khans of Tarkir being overpowered.

The set's got interesting ideas, but its completely schizophrenic and they're all half-baked.

Shit, to be honest, the whole uncertainty is the best part of this whole thing. I want WotC to take chances like this. More <>, less "I guess this is like sunburst or whatever, I dunno who gives a fuck."

Them not taking risks has been a big problem. This is definitely a good thing.

 

[Yeef]

I'd be stoked that people are this interested in my product. Especially after the critical failure of BFZ. Your ass is only as funky as your last cut, remember?

BFZ has been selling gangbusters. It's a very popular set. Don't let the vocal minority on the internet fool you.

Will of Force

You may pay 1 life and discard a blue card from your hand rather than pay Force of Will's mana cost.
Counter target spell.

Force of Will isn't on the reserve list.

 

[kirblar]

BFZ has been selling gangbusters. It's a very popular set. Don't let the vocal minority on the internet fool you.

There is 0 chance of this set not selling gangbusters because of the expedition, they made Box EV sky high. Sales is a very, very bad metric for judging this set. (Normally, its a good one.)

 

[Crocodile]

There is 0 chance of this set not selling gangbusters because of the expedition, they made Box EV sky high. Sales is a very, very bad metric for judging this set. (Normally, its a good one.)

Seriously. How many things can we agree have significant objective flaws yet go on to sell gangbusters anyway? Twilight series, Transformers movies, Avacyn Restored, etc. Sales are part of the picture and should be taken into account for the sake of analysis but sales by themselves are not a good metric to use.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Don't give me shit for what I'm into. I don't give you shit for being an asshole

bullshit you guys give me shit for being an asshole all the time

The set's got interesting ideas, but its completely schizophrenic and they're all half-baked.

Them not taking risks has been a big problem. This is definitely a good thing.

I think stuff like Processors and the Blighted Lands are interesting and potentially powerful, they're just completely overshadowed by fetchlands, Mantis Rider, Siege Rhino, Dragonlord Ojutai, etc.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

My guess is that <> will mean must be paid by colorless mana only. I think for now, they well leave it as part of Kozilek's "gimmick" but things like having a generic sounding basic land and it's own symbol make me think they want to leave things open for possibly revisiting the mechanic in a different story context.

An example: Wastes could refer to leftover Mirran wreckage needed to power anti-Phyrexian weaponry. Dominaria also had a lot of artifice-induced devastation as part of its story, so I can see that being an angle also.

 

[kirblar]

Seriously. How many things can we agree have significant objective flaws yet go on to sell gangbusters anyway? Twilight series, Transformers movies, Avacyn Restored, etc. Sales are part of the picture and should be taken into account for the sake of analysis but sales by themselves are not a good metric to use.

I think AVR is one where Sales shows you what worked despite the noticeable crap. (The rares/mythics, Miracle mechanic, Angel theme.)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

BFZ has been selling gangbusters. It's a very popular set. Don't let the vocal minority on the internet fool you.

Force of Will isn't on the reserve list.

Whoops.

Mox Bismuth

{0}

Artifact

{T}: Add <> to your manapool

 

[aidan]

MTG Salvation has more-or-less confirmed that these cards are real:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...gw-kozilek-the-great-distortion-and-new-basic

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...mirrorpool-new-mythic-land-producing-new-type

 

[kirblar]

MTG Salvation has more-or-less confirmed that these cards are real:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...gw-kozilek-the-great-distortion-and-new-basic

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...mirrorpool-new-mythic-land-producing-new-type

Once someone pointed out the Bismuth art similarity on Wastes with the Kozilek cards, it was a closed case.

 

[Yeef]

There is 0 chance of this set not selling gangbusters because of the expedition, they made Box EV sky high. Sales is a very, very bad metric for judging this set. (Normally, its a good one.)

From Wizards' perspective its not. It's not just sealed product sales that are up; event participation is also up. In our case, it's not just a small difference either; we're talking almost 3x the sales and event entries vs. Khans in the same period.

Seriously. How many things can we agree have significant objective flaws yet go on to sell gangbusters anyway? Twilight series, Transformers movies, Avacyn Restored, etc. Sales are part of the picture and should be taken into account for the sake of analysis but sales by themselves are not a good metric to use.

I'm not saying that BFZ isn't flawed (there's a lot of things I don't like about it), just that the opinion of enfranchised players is really only a small piece of the picture. BFZ is very popular with more casual players from what I've seen. It makes sense, too, since it's a very Timmy and Johnny set and not particularly Spikey.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

BTW, this makes it backwards compatible with the eldrazi drones/scions. That's hugely important.

Hadn't thought about this, but this cements it for me.

EDIT: I doubt they would add a new Drone / Scion variant. Guess it's possible, though.

 

[G.ZZZ]

You guys joke about it, but i could see dual "colorless land" in this set. Like:

Forest Wastes
Land - Forest
T: add <> to your mana pool

Basically they are forest with the added utility of giving colorless for <> mana costs.

As for actual dual lands... ETB variants are the most probable thing (essentially being worse triland but with the added bonus for colorless costs).

The problem of said lands is that they'd be useless aside from cards from this very set, unless they use this idea a bit more often, but i think it's a bit too related to the eldrazi for this to actually happen.

I'd love to see a card like this though:

NullStone <> <>
Artifact
T: counter target spell unless its controller pay <>

Hose multicolored decks to hell and back lol. Also:

Eldrazi Ring <>
Artifact
T: add <> to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast colorless spells.

 

[charlequin]

I'm pretty sure all this is why Wizards doesn't like stuff to leak.

Well... yes and no. Leaking means a) people get worked up about stuff too early, so the hype cycle gets bumpy and b) WotC can't control what people know so misinformation or confusion can run rampant.

In this particular case, a) definitely applies (and they're gonna be pissed about that) but I'm not sure about b). My guess is still that these leaked so early because they were intended as an early preview of the set for a few weeks from now. Showing off Kozilek and the Wastes gives us all the info we need to make pretty strong predictions about the mechanic, and it shows us a splashy marquee card using it so people get excited about the potential -- you can see from people pissed at BFZ perking their ears up a little that this is a pretty good card to promote the set.

I still maintain BFZ has interesting stuff in it that just gets overshadowed by Khans of Tarkir being overpowered.

Yeah, not having interesting stuff is definitely not BFZ's problem, it actually has a ton of interesting stuff. The (tightly related) problems are basically 1) it has a fundamental inspiration problem that led to weird results with the Eldrazi, 2) design went late and late designs that need to be salvaged by development are always bad sets, therefore 3) it's kind of an incoherent hot mess, especially next to something elegant like Khans.

I'm not saying that BFZ isn't flawed (there's a lot of things I don't like about it), just that the opinion of enfranchised players is really only a small piece of the picture. BFZ is very popular with more casual players from what I've seen. It makes sense, too, since it's a very Timmy and Johnny set and not particularly Spikey.

As a general rule, I'd say:

• Enfranchised players compare sets to each other, casual players judge them in a vacuum
• Enfranchised players care more about the set as a whole, casual players care more about the quality of the coolest standalone cards they can get
• Enfranchised players care about limited, casual players don't

The biggest issues with BFZ all fall squarely in the enfranchised side of this list.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Tap Liliana of the Veil to add ( o )( o ) to your mana pool, amirite guys?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Someone on MTGS pointed something interesting out about a rules change between DTK and Origins

107.12.
The chaos symbol is {C}. It appears on one face of the planar die used in the Planechase casual variant, as well as in abilities that refer to the results of rolling the planar die. See rule 901, "Planechase."
107.12.
The chaos symbol is {CHAOS}. It appears on one face of the planar die used in the Planechase casual variant, as well as in abilities that refer to the results of rolling the planar die. See rule 901, "Planechase

 

[kirblar]

Yeah, not having interesting stuff is definitely not BFZ's problem, it actually has a ton of interesting stuff. The (tightly related) problems are basically 1) it has a fundamental inspiration problem that led to weird results with the Eldrazi, 2) design went late and late designs that need to be salvaged by development are always bad sets, therefore 3) it's kind of an incoherent hot mess, especially next to something elegant like Khans.



As a general rule, I'd say:

• Enfranchised players compare sets to each other, casual players judge them in a vacuum
• Enfranchised players care more about the set as a whole, casual players care more about the quality of the coolest standalone cards they can get
• Enfranchised players care about limited, casual players don't

The biggest issues with BFZ all fall squarely in the enfranchised side of this list.

There's a simpler way of putting with it: If you played the original Zendikar block, BFZ comes off as a malformed frankenstein's monster version of the original. All the mechanics got worse.

 

[charlequin]

Someone on MTGS pointed something interesting out about a rules change between DTK and Origins

Yeah, that's interesting. I do wonder if that's what they're going with.

The other thing I was wondering was whether this was the mysterious "E" mechanic that was cut from Mirrodin. Rosewater did say earlier this year that there was a set in the 7-year plan that included that mechanic, maybe he meant this -- I can certainly imagine "only pay with colorless mana" as something they would have tried out in Mirrodin design.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm not saying that BFZ isn't flawed (there's a lot of things I don't like about it), just that the opinion of enfranchised players is really only a small piece of the picture. BFZ is very popular with more casual players from what I've seen. It makes sense, too, since it's a very Timmy and Johnny set and not particularly Spikey.

I guessss but like, I'm a pretty big Timmy player and I'm pretty apathetic towards playing events with this set

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Someone on MTGS pointed something interesting out about a rules change between DTK and Origins

Okay. I lose. {C} clearly means "colorless" mana.

 

[charlequin]

I guessss but like, I'm a pretty big Timmy player and I'm pretty apathetic towards playing events with this set

Yeah I don't think it's really a psychographic split, what an enfranchised Timmy wants out of a set is pretty different from what a newb does.

 

[Socat]

My point was just that if you have one in play, you've guaranteed you can pay the constrained part of Kozilek's cost, the <><>.



Yeah this is the single biggest reason I feel confident this isn't a special kind of mana. If it was going to work that way it'd really have to be supported in the first set on things like the Scions.



We did. It's weird, the Judge promo series is numbered 1-8 for 2015, but the mailings that went out only had 4-8 in them. Rishadan Port is 3, I think we have no idea what 1-2 are, or any idea how/when they'll distribute them. Maybe it'll wind up like the Entomb from a few years ago.

Link for the Judge promo leak?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Link for the Judge promo leak?