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Magic: the Gathering - Battle for Zendikar |OT| Lands matter (but nothing else does)

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OnPoint

Member
Two 10/10 creatures for 10 is a great rate but the lack of evasion makes it really meh.

The enemy man lands are not at all surprising. Does the appearance of these do anything to bolster the value of the set like we were talking about the other day? Or is it still going to be lower on average because of the Expeditions?

The 1/1 cat seems ok. Should be good in draft.

Stasis Snare is real good. Wow.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Two 10/10 creatures for 10 is a great rate but the lack of evasion makes it really meh.

The enemy man lands are not at all surprising. Does the appearance of these do anything to bolster the value of the set like we were talking about the other day? Or is it still going to be lower on average because of the Expeditions?

The 1/1 cat seems ok. Should be good in draft.

Stasis Snare is real good. Wow.
I mean, not necessarily - not all manlands are actually Modern playable. The lands in this set should be like $5 I think, but they could be higher and just depress the value of everything else even more.
 
Not a fan of eldrazi in general
"super expensive card but also super strong if you manage to play it" is a boring concept in itself I think
Exile the top 20 cards of the library ? what BS is this
throwgame.gif
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Not a fan of eldrazi in general
"super expensive card but also super strong if you manage to play it" is a boring concept in itself I think
Exile the top 20 cards of the library ? what BS is this
throwgame.gif

Technically, Ulamog can be chumped all day by Squirrel tokens, so you get a pretty specific clock there.

Ulamog can actually win through infinite life combos too.

Big Giant Dudes still have to compete with this gal though:

Image.ashx
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
In fact, I'd say Dragonlord Atarka is the giant Eldrazi's biggest problem in terms of constructed: R/G is the most common ramp color to begin with and Atarka is just fuck-off good. See the Unwritten is gonna crash unless winning through Ulamog swinging is a legit deck.

But yeah, Lumbering Falls is going to be hell for a Draw Go deck to deal with.
 

Crocodile

Member
Maro Article

Maro admits RoE didn't follow New World Order. It is also one of the best limited formats ever per anyone who actually has decent experience playing limited. I wonder if there is a correlation :p? Also says people hated Annihilator and that Level Up was too complex. People really hate fun (with the last mechanic anyway) don't they :(

Why is it bad for some players to learn that sometimes a Runeclaw Bear is a bad card in a format? That's kind of what makes every format different no? Why should you be expected to be able to do the same strategy in every format and be successful?

The Leopard sucks. Even after one landfall trigger its worse than a Steppe Lynx and has no crazy potential with fetchlands that Lynx and Geopede had. I guess that helps with the "attack all day" problem Zendikar had (though making it uncommon would have been a good help already) but it makes them trash in a lot of formats.

Good to see Enemy Manlands, didn't expect them until the next set.
 

bigkrev

Member
Stasis Snare seems insane to me- it's basically Dark Banishing, but in White. It's a cute way to deal with manlands.

Desolation Twin just makes me sad.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
White removal in this set seems really good actually.

White already looks dumb in limited because it has Gideon's Reproach and Sheer Drop at common and Stasis Snare at uncommon.
 
Making Magic - Preparing for Battle part 1
en_Yuxp4WpiVB.png

Is this the first card to provide 20 power right out of the box? As in without hoop jumping like with Dark Depths. Pretty neat, especially since you get a 10/10 creature no matter what.

Feature - Converging on Zendikar
en_cF8mCtfej7.png

Really interesting idea for a tutor card. As mentioned before, you could use this to cast cards without mana costs, notably Living End, though I'm not sure it's better than the current cascade solution.

Level One - "Creature" Lands
en_uorix78qpS.png

I like how it looks like a turtle. A bit boring due to it being very similar to Simic Keyrune, and it kind of even has the same total cost (3GU), since you need to leave Lumbering Falls untapped to attack with it. However, it does seem pretty strong.
c4rd4r7_r9j80UOmUt.jpg


Arcana - The Promos of Battle for Zendikar
en_Eh2kcthqFa.png
en_1eU3EcMxE9.png

Scythe Leopard only gets +1/+1 and it's uncommon. I can't imagine this will be anywhere near the problem that Steppe Lynx was. Stasis Snare is definitely going to be strong.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Yeah, you can play it whenever it would be legal to play.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can cast a Living End with this?

You can cast any 0-2 cost card with it, so its basically casting Living Death for its original CMC, I suppose. Any card that can cast stuff for free has the potential to be broken.
 

Firemind

Member
Maro admits RoE didn't follow New World Order. It is also one of the best limited formats ever per anyone who actually has decent experience playing limited. I wonder if there is a correlation :p? Also says people hated Annihilator and that Level Up was too complex. People really hate fun (with the last mechanic anyway) don't they :(
ROE best limited format

Players hated annihilator and level-up

Does not compute
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
ROE best limited format

Players hated annihilator and level-up

Does not compute

It just slowly kills both you and your ability to respond to it. I can see why they didn't like it from a design or play perspective.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Also and FYI for people who don't normally follow this thread: spoilers start every day at 8 a.m. PST (WOTC is in Washington State). We usually get 3-6 cards from them, and spoilers continue throughout the day from other sites like Star City Games, Twitter, etc.
 

Firemind

Member
That just means you didn't draft enough narcolepsies.

Anyway, we should just reach a consensus RAV-GPT-DIS is the best limited format of all time. OF ALL TIME. 3xINN can be second.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think Maro actually explains himself pretty well:

"The end result was the creation a Limited environment that was unlike any other. If you could figure out what was going on, there was all sorts of offbeat gameplay. But if you didn't, the Limited gameplay was filled with traps that would result in your deck disastrously not working. Putting a simple thing like a 2/2 creature for two in your deck, which normally was functional, became a mistake. The end result of all this is that the audience diverged greatly on Rise of the Eldrazi. The enfranchised Limited players loved it. It was different and quirky and rewarded skill. The less enfranchised players hated it. They didn't understand what was going on and would always lose with game states that were painfully unfun."

It's very easy to see why us "entrenched" players love ROE and newer or casual players would hate it when you look at it like that.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
It's very easy to see why us "entrenched" players love ROE and newer or casual players would hate it when you look at it like that.

Yup, the criticism makes sense, and just makes me wish we had more supplemental products for drafting or whatever that were able to explore areas like this
 
Yup, the criticism makes sense, and just makes me wish we had more supplemental products for drafting or whatever that were able to explore areas like this

The success of Conspiracy means we're guaranteed to get weird supplemental draft sets, though I'm not sure if "battlecruiser Magic" is still on the table. One would think that with their acknowledgment that enfranchised players liked it, that it would be a possibility.
 
They can easily undo AVR through various means.

I mean, they straight-up retconned the endings of Mirrodin ("every living creature is sent off the plane") and Ravnica ("the guilds are completely destroyed") because both were idiotic choices in retrospect, so I'm sure they can manage something milder for Innistrad 2.

Christ, I can only imagine what a Fallen Empires draft would be like.

Hope you don't like evasion!

Shandalar seems a lot more generic these days than Dominaria is since Dominaria currently fulfills the role of "Post Apocalyptic World" I suppose.

I'm not the biggest fan of that just since it's already kind of done. The Future Sight stuff suggested the plane was fixing itself up so I feel like "post-post-apocalyptic" is a better idea anyway.

EDIT: The wording on bring to light is weird. Does exiling it mean that I can play it whenever I like after Bring to Light resolves?

Nope, it's an immediate part of the spell's resolution.

Maro admits RoE didn't follow New World Order. It is also one of the best limited formats ever per anyone who actually has decent experience playing limited. I wonder if there is a correlation :p? Also says people hated Annihilator and that Level Up was too complex. People really hate fun (with the last mechanic anyway) don't they :(

I mean, I think this is more complicated than simplistic analysis (or, like, apparently R&D) gives it credit for. ROE was one of the best limited formats, but so was Innistrad which certainly follows NWO, so I don't think that's an innate correlation. Annihilator works well in the specific context of ROE limited and nowhere else, since in any other format it's just obnoxious. Level up similarly works well in the context of battlecruiser magic but is super fiddly and for the most part not exciting enough to make up for it. All of those are, I think, legitimate critiques to apply when looking back at it.

However, the benefit of designing a fundamentally different and unexpected format is still undervalued. I agree that the bear-trap example of what's wrong about their approach to the set. It's not some fundamental, inalienable principle of draft formats that 2/2s should be good. Having to draft around some new set of goals is what makes each format fresh and provides the opportunity for skill-testing. In this case, the basic version of ROE is not that hard to learn -- tell someone to pick from eldrazi ramp, wall tribal, spells matter, and levelers as their archetypes and everything else falls into place pretty quick.

Anyway, BFZ was never going to be the sequel to ROE specifically so I never expected it to go for battlecruiser again specifically, so I don't think that was a serious negative impact on the set. The biggest problem really just seems to be that they didn't follow their own principles and design the Eldrazi to convey their flavor through play.

The success of Conspiracy means we're guaranteed to get weird supplemental draft sets, though I'm not sure if "battlecruiser Magic" is still on the table.

One problem with trying to go back to battlecruiser magic is that it's very difficult to make it work within the normal boundaries of Magic design, and ROE already completely nailed it. I think I'd rather they do a weird draft set with some other gimmick than just make a less-good version of ROE.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Nope, it's an immediate part of the spell's resolution.
.

In that case I'm not sure why its templates that way, unless they're moving that way for "you can play for free" spells in the future. I was thinking holding it in exile was to make it vulnerable to Processors or something

Unless....oh wait, okay, because you're grabbing it from your library they want to make you shuffle up again before you have a chance to play some spell that might depend on library order
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm not the biggest fan of that just since it's already kind of done. The Future Sight stuff suggested the plane was fixing itself up so I feel like "post-post-apocalyptic" is a better idea anyway.

Technically, it would be post-post-post-post apocalyptic since there already was an apocalyptic event and recovery on Dominaria with the Sylex Blast and Ice Age.
KuGsj.gif


In that case I'm not sure why its templates that way, unless they're moving that way for "you can play for free" spells in the future. I was thinking holding it in exile was to make it vulnerable to Processors or something

Unless....oh wait, okay, because you're grabbing it from your library they want to make you shuffle up again before you have a chance to play some spell that might depend on library order

The card would say "as long as it remains in exile" if you were going to be able to do it forever. I don't think Sorceries or Instants can do that either because of memory issues with a persistent effect. The longest effect I can recall is Commune with Lava that gives you an effect until the end of your next turn.
 

Matriox

Member

Might have missed it, but I didn't see it posted, Ruinous Path is the buy-a-box promo. (sorry for side by side image, at work right now so I can't access MTG main site for link to just that shot)
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The more I see, the more I like Awaken. Its the Kicker of this set, and it doesn't need to be as high in volume because the set has all the Eldrazi stuff as well
 

duxstar

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";177845561]Lumbering Falls is so good![/QUOTE]

Soon I'll be able to go knight of the white orchid, into deathmist raptor , into archangel of tithes into ojutai !!

Seriously though the mana bases worry me greatly , Ive always seen not having the colors you need as a restriction on creating "good stuff 5 color decks" but it almost seems like a 5 color deck isn't that difficult to play.

Khans fetches , Tango lands, tri color tapped lands , and now enemy manlands.

Turn 1 play tri color tapped land , turn 2 fetch for "tango" land that produces the next 2 colors you need, 5 colors available on turn 2 and from there you can play things like Mantis Rider into Siege Rhino, Into Sarkhan the unbroken.

Dunno maybe the threat of mono red is enough to keep too many 5 color decks from popping up .
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
jp_CrUglvnPJ0.png


+1 untap up to 1 target creature and up to 1 target land

-2 reveal top 4 cards of your library. You may put up to 1 creature card or 1 land to your hand. Put the rest into graveyard.

-8 you get an emblem " whenever a creature come into battlefield under you control , you can have it fight with target creature" and put 3 8/8 blue octopus into battlefield.
 

Jaeyden

Member
The last time mana was super easy (all 10 shocklands and checklands) standard was awesome. The meta was all over the place, so many different decks to play.
 

Crocodile

Member
I'm certainly not trying to argue that you can't have good/great limited sets under NWO, Innistrad proves that. It's just that ROE is better. There's also a reason I prefer pretty much any well constructed Cube (regardless of type) to retail draft environments. I also think losing Annihilator totally sucks because a lot of these new Eldrazi just aren't scary at all. Even capping it at Annihilator 1 or 2 would have been better than we have now. I also thought Level Up was a superior "mana flood insurance" mechanic than Kicker. Lick I totally understand and respect WOTCs need to make sure as broad an audience as possible is enjoying their game but I just don't like some of these changes and rationales. The "Bears must always be good" mantra is also completely nonsensical. There are plenty of formats where 5+ drops are unplayable but a format where two drops without Level Up or other abilities are unplayable is somehow unacceptable? I get that long games favor more experience players but trying to force games in all formats to be shorter so that weak players can mise wins seems like such a........"scummy" way to broaden the audience? ("Scummy" is I'm sure not the right word but I can't think of something better right now).
 

Firemind

Member
I played Grixis once with 8 manlands. It was glorious. These are probably not going to beat Creeping Tar Pit though. I mean, Tar Pit even sees Legacy play.

Still, Jund also played like 6 manlands since it's just free value. I'm going to assume the B/G and W/B manlands are going to be heavily nerfed, but who knows.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
jp_PitAVDWBFm.png


+1 Draw a card, you lose 1 life
-3 Destroy Target Creature
-8 Whenever opponent draws a card they lose 2 life.
 

duxstar

Member
jp_CrUglvnPJ0.png


+1 untap up to 1 target creature and up to 1 target land

-2 reveal top 4 cards of your library. You may put up to 1 creature card and up to 1 land to your hand. Put the rest into graveyard.

-8 you get an emblem " whenever a creature come into battlefield under you control , you can have it fight with target creature" and put 3 8/8 blue octopus into battlefield.

That is an extremely good card. Like real real good. Doesn't protect itself when it comes out, so people will say its bad at first, but damn is that real good.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
That is an extremely good card. Like real real good. Doesn't protect itself when it comes out, so people will say its bad at first, but damn is that real good.

She does if you have a creature out. Which, in UG, if you don't have a creature out by the time you're dropping her you have bigger problems
 
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