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Magic: the Gathering - Oath o/t Gatewatch |OT| Look again, the mana is now diamonds!
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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charlequin
Banned
I don't think people are really seriously considering the scope it would take to accomplish this. When CFB "solves" a format, they put around 20 of the world's absolute best players in a room together and have them all do nothing but test that format 12+ hours a day for two weeks. It's not actually possible to hire staff that good (the pros they hire inevitably get less good as they're not in active competition) and totally impractical to dedicate that much time to each format with each set.
This is kind of my ultimate MTG endgame, but I feel like I need to learn a lot more to be able to design a halfway decent cube.
(The other thing I've considered is building a draft box out of a set I've designed myself and then trying to find out if there's some poor, unfortunate souls out there who would actually give it a shot, lol.)
WOTC knew of the interaction between Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin and new Eldrazi. You'd have to stupid not to know and Ian Duke pretty much admitted they knew (though there is no suggestion they tested it - they don't test Modern). The options they have are
A) Preemptively ban cards from new formats even if they've never been a problem before. The problem is that the player base would scream bloody muder because cards were banned without being shown to be problematic and they would have never gotten the chance to break things themselves
B) Nerf the new cards they print - add 2 CMC to all the Edlrazi out of BFZ & OGW and the Modern deck falls apart even with the lands. The issue here is the cards then become too weak for standard - so weak in general that nobody wants them and packs don't sell.
C) Be even more careful about printing cards so its harder to break them in the future. Same issue as in B where cards become unappealing and packs don't sell.
The best thing for the game is for them to print cards without freaking out about non-rotating formats and use the ban list to deal with problematic cards. Is it really the end of the world if you can't play Modern for six weeks? Shit happens. *shrug*
Resources to build Cubes online are basically legion. There are many of us here with Cubes as well - if you've got questions and time, ask away.
I don't expect them to solve the format and have all the data on what's playable and what's not beforehand. But their professed ignorance is staggering at times. I don't believe for a second they're as clueless as they claim to be. Non-Wizards-employee players took one look at the OGW spoiler and knew right away to buy up Eldrazi Temple and Eye of Ugin because the writing was on the wall.And people knew right away that Relfector Mage was bananas. Or how about Collected Company being insane. The one mostly everyone missed recently was mini Jace, so some are going to slip through, but some just make zero sense.
Either they need to get a new process on how to assess power level across Modern and Standard, or they're full of shit and know full well what these cards are capable of and are just weathering the storm and are playing the PR game.
They only test Draft, Sealed and Standard and nothing else, they've said this like 10000 times. Also there are way fewer testers in WOTC than among the pros (WOTC employees have to do other things than just test too) or the general populace. If WOTC could get the power level 100% right for EVERY card before ship date, that means the pros and the general populace would solve a format in like a week. That's a bad thing. We've had some bad formats from time to time but lets not like pretend Magic has been unplayable for years straight or something. Plus rotations are even faster now than they used to be. Shit happens. *shrug*
Also on the note of Reflector Mage, they said they pushed the card because U/W was a bad combo in draft (and its still one of the worst) so they wanted a real strong reward for drafting the color combo.
Also on the note of Reflector Mage, they said they pushed the card because U/W was a bad combo in draft (and its still one of the worst) so they wanted a real strong reward for drafting the color combo.
I know what they've said in the past. And I know the Reflector Mage details.
I'm saying their justification for missing things is either a lie, or their ignorance of such things is now, to me at least, inexcusable.
Joe Molotov
Member
May FNM promo
I'm going to guess that this means he's on Eternal Masters.
Goblin Warchief has been an FNM promo before.
divisionbyzorro
Member
1) Even though the format might suffer long-term, I think it's actually really cool when a format gets broken. It rewards the brewers and deckbuilders (at least for one tournament) and it makes for good history/legend. As long as it doesn't fester, I think it's actually a positive.
2) They can fix a lot of these problems by putting the B&R announcements at the logical point in time: exactly halfway through the release cycle. It's far more likely that a new printing is going to break a format than it is to fix it. So you should let the two alternate: this way you don't have to wait a full release cycle to fix a broken format. It also lets you assess the impact of a B&R announcement separately from the impact of new cards reaching the format.
2) They can fix a lot of these problems by putting the B&R announcements at the logical point in time: exactly halfway through the release cycle. It's far more likely that a new printing is going to break a format than it is to fix it. So you should let the two alternate: this way you don't have to wait a full release cycle to fix a broken format. It also lets you assess the impact of a B&R announcement separately from the impact of new cards reaching the format.
I think Goblin Warchief could be in SOI. He and Goblin Piledriver would have a short overlap, a lot of the good Red cards are rotating out, and the 2 best small red creatures that would be left (Zurgo and Abbot) aren't Goblins. Creatures have gotten a hell of a lot better since the time Goblin Warchief was dominant.
There are no Goblins on Innistrad; devils fill that slot instead.
That team that put together the U/R Eldrazi Deck? Only 4 people on their team of 20 played it, because the other people did not think it was good enough. 3 people on CFB did not play their Eldrazi deck, because they didn't think it was good enough, and LSV has said on his stream that they felt "good, not great" about their version of the deck going into the tournament. Everyone knew the interaction existed, but even people who "discovered" the deck did not think it was good enough to play. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a group made up of less overall talent to catch something like this.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The answer is to not print degenerate fast mana when history has shown such cards are degenerate time and time again, regardless of how long it takes for them to become degenerate.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I was looking into picking up a productive hobby for once since I a) stopped playing vidya games for the most part and b) don't have a single productive hobby. Thinking of starting to alter magic cards.
Have a million lands to burn through anyway.
Have a million lands to burn through anyway.
charlequin
Banned
They (correctly) don't change sets to keep Modern or Legacy healthy. I don't think Collected Company even really qualifies as a mistake, it's just a really good card rather than a format ruiner. Jace is actually the biggest mistake for me, the ways it's overpowered are pretty clear with playtesting so they really should have tweaked it before release.
The current timing is an artifact of an older era where formats took about twice as long to figure out and information was scarcer on the ground. I think it probably would make sense to move the date these days.
Right, the power of the deck is in the exact degree of free acceleration you get plus the amount of disruption your creature suite provides plus the degree to which the strategy is broadly resilient to sideboard tech, each of which is an easy factor to misjudge in the direction of less good.
You probably have enough experience to build a cube, the biggest thing is sleeves (if you plan on drafting it multiple times you want it sleeved to prevent marked cards), time and a playgroup/test group. Anybody that has played for about a year and not the out all their commons probably has enough cards to start.
Just think about the environment you want to play in and start building towards it. Generally you want to represent each color equally and make sure you have mana fixing equal to how Gold you're cube is.
You can test with as few as one other person (or by yourself if you are truly honest, but wouldn't recommend it). Just set up like a normal draft for Six people and burn two cards for every pick you take. It isn't perfect but should give you a quick idea if two or so different archetypes work. As the designer I would make sure that you take the hardest archetypes and leave something easy foe the other person. If they can't draft an archetype you put in there ask them why they drafted like they did.
Really playing your cube though is where a lot of building comes from. Everytime you play it ask for suggestions and keep notes. What cards are always last picked? What cards never make it into decks? Why doesn't anyone ever play Storm or whatever?
This is really simplified, but cubes work best when you have a playgroup that 'works' on it together and lets you know what they like or don't like. You will learn so much just building it and through trial and error. Also, they first few times don't be afraid to take notes with possible quick changes and extra cards to replace stuff with. We drafted two or three times a session and the first time really sucked when all I did is show up with an unoptimized pile of rubbish and nothing planned on possible changes. And use Cube Tutor it something similar to help keep track of CMC curves in the colors and such.
I really like how they do it now and would like to see them continue. Yeah Modern sucks right now, but I honestly keep hoping the power in Modern continues to rise and them printing occasional cards that cam break it.
As long as they also remove stuff from the Ban list as well, so you might be right
My beef with CoCo isn't that it's op. It's that they've gone on record stating they didn't think it would be a thing. Like, really? Did you even test it in standard?
It would make more sense to have the B&R list updated a month or six weeks after the release of a set, IMO. Right before the format is going to change naturally with the addition of new cards is a really weird place to change it by forcefully removing cards.
A Magic the Gathering where they occasionally break a format or two is a game I want to continue playing. A Magic the Gathering where they play things so safe that nothing ever "goes wrong" is a game I will quit.
The success of one card or strategy is not just based on that card in isolation. If you misevaluate the power level of a variety of decks or sideboard cards, that can change how a format shakes out. Also, if other cards are changed in development, even if you test those so they aren't broken, those changes can influnce decks and thus the metagame and can leave other cards at an advantage. It's not at all a straight forward process.
The success of one card or strategy is not just based on that card in isolation. If you misevaluate the power level of a variety of decks or sideboard cards, that can change how a format shakes out. Also, if other cards are changed in development, even if you test those so they aren't broken, those changes can influnce decks and thus the metagame and can leave other cards at an advantage. It's not at all a straight forward process.
ThLunarian
Member
Didn't they only recently start synching up set releases and B/R announcements? Like within the last 2-3 years?
It is new. I want to say they had specific dates before and this was sold as better since you didn't have to change decks more often, since banned cards were announced the same time new cards were added.
Infinite Stars
Member
I think-and this is completely unbased- that they were expecting for removal in Standard to stay at Khans block level, where Downfall, Strike, Bile Blight, Anger, etc were a considerable part of the meta game. Considering Collected Company is one of those cards that you want as one of maybe 7-8 noncreature spells, these decks would have relatively few interaction.
I mean, Dragons finished development in what, mid 2014? Considering how BFZ and Origins are powerlevelwise and we know that both had issues in development, I think that this period is a growing pain period.
Everyone horribly undervalued Jace(I was reading Saffron Olive's review of the Flip Walkers and Jace was a solid F) and it's one of those things that should have been caught in testing.
As for the current Eldrazi hell, if Wizards had Devoid as a thing during Original Zendikar this problem wouldn't exist as they'd have realized the power the Eye/Temple/Cheap Colourless Eldrazi created.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Here's what you have to realize: when they test cards, they're testing with cards that never make it to print. They change so many things throughout the testing process that they are rarely (if ever) playing the Standard that we play.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think the issue OnPoint is getting at is that the only thing you have to do with Collected Company to figure out its a Modern and Standard staple is read the card once. That's not to say its an overpowered Magic card, but it is to say that it doesn't require a deep knowledge of card interactions to know that it's a good card because the rate is so good.
And yes, I remember LSV giving CoCo a 2.0 rating, but sometimes I don't know where his head is - he gave Dig Through Time a 2.5 (Treasure Cruise a 2.0) and both of those run counter to my recollection of those spoiler season reactions.
You're kind of missing the point: nobody cares that Thought-Knot Seer or Dig Through Time were printed. They're good Standard cards and I cast both all of the time. The problem is that when cards like that break formats for months at a time it kind of sucks if you wanted to play that format. I don't really know how much data they need to figure out that Eye of Ugin is busted beyond belief or that Treasure Cruise reduced the meta to Delver vs. Pod.
DashReindeer
Lead Community Manager, Outpost Games
I'm pretty sure you're one of the people here who hates EDH/Commander, right? This is literally the reason a lot of people have drifted to Commander over the years. The EDH games I play with my friends are for the most part quite varied and unpredictable causing some really interesting interactions between cards. I get that some people want a more competitive environment than EDH offers, but all of your complaints seem to imply that you want a less competitive format.
Also, if you think the way mana is handled in Magic is a design flaw, I really hope you don't view Hearthstone's system as being the answer. That way of handling mana is so much more broken and has created a game that's far less interesting than what Magic has built over the years. Yes, some games of Magic are disasters, but deck building offsets that quite a bit. There are still going to be games where you just get completely mana screwed, but Magic is on some levels a game of chance. I do wonder if the casual/competitive gap is what makes for such frustration though. I rarely pay money to play this game.
Also, what are you looking to get for your cards? I'm getting my yearly bonus soon...
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean, from a competitive standpoint, I'm sure some players see it this way: if 20% of all Magic games aren't games, that means you win 10% of the time without doing anything. But I play Magic for fun, so all 20% of those games suck.
Am I just being salty and toothlessly whining? Probably. It's just too much of a pain to sell out of this game and it fills a lot of time. Hopefully SOI brings some of the fun back to Standard. I felt like BFZ didn't add anything fun to the Constructed environment, which kind of ruined the fun of rotation, even if OGW added some neat stuff.
Am I just being salty and toothlessly whining? Probably. It's just too much of a pain to sell out of this game and it fills a lot of time. Hopefully SOI brings some of the fun back to Standard. I felt like BFZ didn't add anything fun to the Constructed environment, which kind of ruined the fun of rotation, even if OGW added some neat stuff.
SigmasonicX
Member
Both are sets made up entirely of reprints, with the appealing parts being reprints of expensive cards. They are designed to be played in Limited drafts, so there are also a lot of less-expensive cards at lower rarities.
There have been some major leaks for Oath of the Gatewatch, Eternal Masters, and Shadows over Innistrad. Wizards cracked down on the leakers of the first, releasing a statement that many thought was too harsh, and they then dialed back on it. They are still tracking down the leakers of the latter two.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That's sort of the problem with Eternal formats though, isn't it? Eye of Ugin wasn't busted at release, and it wasn't busted for eight years after release. It only became a problem when nearly a decade later they decided they wanted to make new Eldrazi which were cheap, and I don't think either option of "we can't design that because of a card from eight years ago" and "we have to ban this card from eight years ago before anyone has a chance to play them together" was a good option
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I don't think the design restriction of "don't print land that taps for (2)" of any kind is that much. There's plenty of ways to make it so you can cast 10 drops that don't involve THAT.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay sure, so they shouldn't do it going forward. I guess if we're pinpointing the mistake to the card's original printing I see what you mean
I understand where you're coming from you an extent, but I guess I just don't mind sitting out as much as I used to. Or trolling the the field and being and playing hate decks.
When CawBlade was in standard I was about to quit. I would show up with a fun brew and it never failed I would be matched with a CawBlade player match one. Would inevitably lose and then might win match two and whatever match three and four. Sucked, especially if I got matched against another CawBlade deck that lost in the mirror. Ended up spending the week just trying to hate the first CawBlade out and not really having fun. Then they finally banned SFM and Jace and I could play for fun again.
That three months sucked, but after the ban I had fun again. I even like playing with Jace now in Legacy, but if you asked me back then, would have told you Jace, SFM and Batterskull were the worst cards ever printed and that WotC the dumbest bunch of [expletive deleted]. Still don't know how you could look at SFM (as you are putting two in an event deck) and Batterskull and not see that happening.
They shouldn't restrict design like that. I mean, they could slow it down with stupid abilities like "T: Add 1. If you have four basics in play add 2 instead."
I guess for me though, I like seeing cards printed that are powerful and can affect Eternal formats also. Hard to keep people interested for so long, but them printing stuff like this and actually changing Legacy is good, IMO. Much more exciting then seeing Slash Panther be playable, though on some level that is cool too.
When CawBlade was in standard I was about to quit. I would show up with a fun brew and it never failed I would be matched with a CawBlade player match one. Would inevitably lose and then might win match two and whatever match three and four. Sucked, especially if I got matched against another CawBlade deck that lost in the mirror. Ended up spending the week just trying to hate the first CawBlade out and not really having fun. Then they finally banned SFM and Jace and I could play for fun again.
That three months sucked, but after the ban I had fun again. I even like playing with Jace now in Legacy, but if you asked me back then, would have told you Jace, SFM and Batterskull were the worst cards ever printed and that WotC the dumbest bunch of [expletive deleted]. Still don't know how you could look at SFM (as you are putting two in an event deck) and Batterskull and not see that happening.
That restriction as is means Filter lands can't be printed and they aren't bad. I know you mean free mana, but still.
They shouldn't restrict design like that. I mean, they could slow it down with stupid abilities like "T: Add 1. If you have four basics in play add 2 instead."
I guess for me though, I like seeing cards printed that are powerful and can affect Eternal formats also. Hard to keep people interested for so long, but them printing stuff like this and actually changing Legacy is good, IMO. Much more exciting then seeing Slash Panther be playable, though on some level that is cool too.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The only deck I have fun with in Standard right now is my B/W Eldrana deck, but I don't have the kind of win percentage with it I'd like. I mean, I guess I top 8'd game day (=V) with it.
phazedplasma
Member
Standard is so boring to me Im playing modern tonight
whats wrong with me
whats wrong with me
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You're reading that wrong - the idea is not to print Ancient Tombs, not to ban Filterlands that net only 1 mana, or even bouncelands really (since outside of shenanigans, they don't accelerate).
This is what my friend did after he had his child. He has put together a Scars of Mirrodin cube and an Innistrad cube and is working on a Theros one (his favorite draft formats from when he played most). Every so often we'll hit up his place, order some pizzas, and play all night, it's awesome.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'd love to build an Innistrad cube if I didn't think it would be a huge money sink (more than cubes normally are)
I like my friend's Theros cube a lot actually. It feels sort of...classical? In a very nebulous, vibey touchy feely way
Magic's land/mana system is the best way to do it. Look at games like World of Warcraft or even Hearthstone. I'd much prefer losing to mana screw every now and then than deal with terrible balance.
That said, Cube is the best format in the game. Everybody should have a Cube in their usual playgroup. I am more than happy to help anyone build a Cube.
That said, Cube is the best format in the game. Everybody should have a Cube in their usual playgroup. I am more than happy to help anyone build a Cube.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Maybe you need an Antiquities/Mirrodin block/Scars block cube =V
shrapnelmagnet
Member
How much do you think Painlands (Adarkar Wastes) fall when Eldrazi gets kicked down? Or will it require the Colourless Mana to rotate out of Standard?
Royal_Flush
Member
But Painlands rotate before colorless mana?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
the wow TCG used quests and you could decid to play any card as a quest face down if you want to once per turn.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They will be 2 dollar cards same as they were before. The allied painlands (Adarkar Wastes, Sulphorous Spring, Karplusian Forest, Brushland, Underground River) aren't in standard at all.
the wow tcg was pretty dope.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
Yeah, I posted kinda hastily, sorry.
I guess I was more curious about the impact of a weakened / ousted Eldrazi deck in Modern but wanted to acknowledge that the ones in Standard may be relevant for a while, still.
EDIT: NEVERMIND. I suck at using the site. They're buying them for $3.
charlequin
Banned
Well, the last time they did it was... well, it was Shrine of the Forsaken Gods but that's hardly an early ramp issue, and the last time they did it before that was WWK/ROE with the lands in question, so at least they haven't visibly failed to learn their lesson there.
I have a pretty strong desire to try it. I wonder if its expensive now that they dont make it anymore.
As far as mana goes, magics will always be fucked. Its a small orice to pay tho for an incredibly deep system that works most of the time. The one thing i want hearthstone to do is build on its mana system. Right now, its mechanics are as shallow as removing and adding mana through cards. I think they could come up with some twists to gibe it some of that depth magic has and i hope they do bc its my favorite part of magic, and sometimes the part that annoys me the most but what do ya do
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Speaking of other TCGs I love the Netrunner card game but I just can't play it without a good multiplayer mode as just the reality of game nights these days. There's very little room for a game that only supports 2 players
Hell, I have the same problem with mahjong as well because we almost always have more than four people
Game nights are hard
Hell, I have the same problem with mahjong as well because we almost always have more than four people
Game nights are hard
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