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[Crocodile]

This is a horrible argument for a lot of reasons, primarily that when someone topdecks a good card, unless they explicitly tell you (or their hand was empty and they immediately cast it), it’s basically hidden from the other player. Moreover, Magic is mostly played by people who play it for fun, not Brian Kibler. Does Aaron Forsythe (head developer, standing right behind Kibler) look like he's thinking "wow what a great mechanic!" Hell does Brian look "composed"? Really? Does LSV? No, because Miracle is bullshit. Opponents topdecking shit is infuriating to begin with, which is fine because its hidden - mechanics that reward your opponent for topdecking shit beyond the card being good in and of itself is horrible game design.

Miracles
-Are polarizing but generate a lot of excitement and made for some memetic moments
-Likely helped sell Avacyn Restored - a set that sold really well
-Contributed to the creation of new decks (see Legacy)
-Didn't break any format in half

Miracles are not what I'd call a "good" mechanic but I have no idea if they would comeback or not but I doubt Forsythe is lost sleep over it

Avacyn Restored had a lot of cool cards. Restoration Angel, Grislebrand, Avacyn, the Powerpuff Girls, Cavern of Souls, Cloudshift, Silverblade Paladin, Vexing Devil, Deadeye Navigator, Misthollow Griffin, Desolate Lighthouse, Tamiyo, etc.

It was just a really bad limited format.

I'll agree with this.

 

[WanderingWind]

Avacyn Restored had a lot of cool cards. Restoration Angel, Grislebrand, Avacyn, the Powerpuff Girls, Cavern of Souls, Cloudshift, Silverblade Paladin, Vexing Devil, Deadeye Navigator, Misthollow Griffin, Desolate Lighthouse, Tamiyo, etc.

It was just a really bad limited format.

Yup. But for constructed and casual appeal, it was amazing.

 

[Hero]

Yup. But for constructed and casual appeal, it was amazing.

Right and it's perfectly acceptable that different sets have different goals to accomplish for different demographics.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It ruined limited, but Mist Raven is still a kickass card. I'm also a huge fan of Ghostly Flicker. And Conjurer's Closet.

Yeah, I agree. As a set of cards, Avacyn Restored was cool. It was just absolute shit for draft.

Oh, except for Miracles. Those can fuck right off.

 

[Jhriad]

Dude. It's Grimace. He is tilting so hard at Magic right now

I'm not sure I'd say that's a recent development.

 

[Crocodile]

Right and it's perfectly acceptable that different sets have different goals to accomplish for different demographics.

If the axes are "Constructed Appeal", "Casual Appeal" and "Limited Appeal", I agree that not every set has to be amazing at all three. Being fucking TRASH at any one of them is not something I'd call acceptable though. It means someone(s) fucked up bad. WOTC prides it self on all standard booster products having something for all players. You can't just straight up fail to deliver along one axis.

 

[WanderingWind]

BFZ failed on every level. Then Oath helped even out its suck, but oops, broke modern to a level not yet seen in the format. We want to talk about failures? The BFZ block is definitely the biggest since I came back during Scars/Zen timeframe.

As much as I love having a new T1 deck in Modern, it's not much fun having it be the only T1 deck. BFZ is a dumpster fire that other dumpster fires strive to be. Compared to it, AVR is Innistrad.

 

[OnPoint]

BFZ failed on every level. Then Oath helped even out its suck, but oops, broke modern to a level not yet seen in the format. We want to talk about failures? The BFZ block is definitely the biggest since I came back during Scars/Zen timeframe.

As much as I love having a new T1 deck in Modern, it's not much fun having it be the only T1 deck. BFZ is a dumpster fire that other dumpster fires strive to be. Compared to it, AVR is Innistrad.

This is what happens when they change gears and don't have the proper amount of time to make sure everything is OK. It's like when they change cards in development and fail to properly test them, only on a much larger scale with farther reaching implications. Luckily, the switch from 3 sets to 2 sets per block should only happen once, and this type of situation will never happen again. Fingers crossed.

 

[Giant Panda]

This is what happens when they change gears and don't have the proper amount of time to make sure everything is OK. It's like when they change cards in development and fail to properly test them, only on a much larger scale with farther reaching implications. Luckily, the switch from 3 sets to 2 sets per block should only happen once, and this type of situation will never happen again. Fingers crossed.

I still think it could have been better even in their situation. Just from viewing the spoiler I had some suspicions about the set, and after only playing with it a bit my suspicions were confirmed. I think the set would have been acceptable if they had just emphasized ingest & process a bit more, and had beefed up the power level of some cards. It seemed so weird to me how Gideon, Drana, Ulamog, basically the mythics in general were good, and then most of the rares and lower cards were bad.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I actually really like drafting OOB.

 

[y2dvd]

Went 2-1 last night with WR aggro, losing to WG aggro in the finals. Support continues to show how good it really is. He also had a cool interaction with the 1/2 Cohort that let's you look at the top 4 card for an equipment, the claw that let's you put an ally on the field attacking, and Kor Entangler. All my threats are tapped.

Passed up some money cards to try and draft properly. Sometimes it doesn't pay off and I get nothing for the effort. Feels bad man. This time though, my prize packs had a Kozilek and a Thought Knot so I'm happy!

 

[Lucario]

I actually really like drafting OOB.

OOB is a great format. It's really difficult to balance limited in a way that makes both goodstuff and synergistic decks playable, but they definitely pulled it off. So many archtypes are viable.

Ruining modern for a few months was an unfortunate side effect to the new eldrazi, though.

 

[OnPoint]

I still think it could have been better even in their situation. Just from viewing the spoiler I had some suspicions about the set, and after only playing with it a bit my suspicions were confirmed. I think the set would have been acceptable if they had just emphasized ingest & process a bit more, and had beefed up the power level of some cards. It seemed so weird to me how Gideon, Drana, Ulamog, basically the mythics in general were good, and then most of the rares and lower cards were bad.

Oh yeah, they easily could have made things better in a number of ways. It really felt like they got a lot of the mechanics and the introducing of them backwards.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I know who Aaron Forsythe is, I've been playing Magic for way longer than you. I also disagree with the notion that you never know when someone top decks a good card because there are lines of play in most game states where you have to play optimally and assume the opponent doesn't have something and if they're skilled they would almost in all certainty play the card if they had it.

Brian at worst is annoyed or frustrated but he's not tilted and I have never seen someone get so pissed at a one time mechanic. I know angry is in your name but you sound like you have so many issues with the game lately I'm not sure why you continue playing. Do you expect to win every game you play? Do you not expect variance in a card game?

I started playing in 1994 so yeah I find that unlikely and people sandbag cards all of the time. I honestly don't know how you think that miracles.gif, a gif that exists to show that miracles is BS, is in fact a gif that shows that Miracles is pretty cool.

It's the same reason cascade is a horrible mechanic.

 

[The Technomancer]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the magical war thread

 

[pigeon]

I've been brainstorming a variant that has a separate deck of lands from the actual spell cards. Players would then have the choice to draw from the land deck or the spell deck whenever they have the ability to draw. There would have to be a minimum of 20 lands or something to retain some variance in which lands you draw.

On the positive side, this would get rid of mana screw and mana flood as you could precisely control the number of lands that you had access to. Additionally, since you still wouldn't know exactly which lands you drew, color screw would still exist, which I consider a good check on silly good-stuff decks. Players would have to use up more of their draws on the land deck to search for their colors in multi-color decks.

On the negative side, there are a lot of Magic cards that rely on the lands and spells being in the same deck, so they would either have to be banned or have their functionality changed. Even the cards that work with lands split out could have balance problems as the cards that interact with the library or lands have all been balanced around the current set up.

This is a cool idea, a good starting point for thinking about the land problem. As Technomancer posted, I think my instinct is that it takes too much variance out of the game.

A very simplified dumb model for Magic is that, at any given time, you're either looking for land or looking for spells, with the former being dominant early and the latter being dominant late, and so every topdeck has an X% chance of being dead based on your land percentage and what phase you're in. So that's the gas and brake pedal of the game and a big part of determining the ongoing tempo. Splitting land and spells entirely probably makes it too easy to get the exact tempo you want. The game can probably be designed to work around that, but it probably means a lot of rebalancing, because it doesn't just change tempo evenly, it will significantly improve some strategies and hurt others.

I think the "right" solution is more specifically targeted towards making sure your first two or three turns aren't dead time. Those are the games that I think really generate the most bad feeling and are also the most consistently unwinnable. Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe, after all.

 

[ironmang]

Why do people online keep passing me these late Stoneforge Masterworks? It's pretty good in Allies and insane in Eldrazi, especially Gx Eldrazi.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Based on Hearthstone's rule that the player who starts second starts with an artifact that can be sacrificed for one mana, perhaps all players could start with an emblem with the text, "Sacrifice this emblem: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Shuffle your library. You can't play lands this turn. Activate only as a sorcery and only if you played no lands this turn." Not going the mana route as to prevent it from being used to win more quickly in infect decks and such. I feel like it going to the battlefield tapped would better discourage players from keeping aggro hands with no lands, since if it went to the hand, you could play it untapped.

 

[hermit7]

Based on Hearthstone's rule that the player who starts second starts with an artifact that can be sacrificed for one mana, perhaps all players could start with an emblem with the text, "Sacrifice this emblem: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Shuffle your library. You can't play lands this turn. Activate only as a sorcery and only if you played no lands this turn." Not going the mana route as to prevent it from being used to win more quickly in infect decks and such. I feel like it going to the battlefield tapped would better discourage players from keeping aggro hands with no lands, since if it went to the hand, you could play it untapped.

Maybe have each player search for 2 lands prior to shuffling and then drawing 5. Then keep standard mull rules. Then the two lands go into the starting hand.

Has some variation but at least allows you to play.

 

[aidan]

Wouldn't more consistent land draws/tutoring at the beginning of the game mean that the power level on gold cards would have to come waaaay down?

 

[Crocodile]

Messing with the mana system has such huge implications for all cards already made and all cards made moving forward that I don't think its something you want to touch at this point. It's something best left to another game.

BFZ failed on every level. Then Oath helped even out its suck, but oops, broke modern to a level not yet seen in the format. We want to talk about failures? The BFZ block is definitely the biggest since I came back during Scars/Zen timeframe.

As much as I love having a new T1 deck in Modern, it's not much fun having it be the only T1 deck. BFZ is a dumpster fire that other dumpster fires strive to be. Compared to it, AVR is Innistrad.

Me: Thing A was bad!
You: Well Thing B was worse!

Ok? That doesn't make Thing A less bad. Or have I misunderstood your point

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

OOB is a great format. It's really difficult to balance limited in a way that makes both goodstuff and synergistic decks playable, but they definitely pulled it off. So many archtypes are viable.

Ruining modern for a few months was an unfortunate side effect to the new eldrazi, though.

Yeah currently playing grixis Eldrazi, actually quite content with my deck but still lost against UWc of all things. Just didn't draw any removal against the unblockable guy that draws cards.

 

[A Serious Man]

Based on Hearthstone's rule that the player who starts second starts with an artifact that can be sacrificed for one mana, perhaps all players could start with an emblem with the text, "Sacrifice this emblem: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Shuffle your library. You can't play lands this turn. Activate only as a sorcery and only if you played no lands this turn." Not going the mana route as to prevent it from being used to win more quickly in infect decks and such. I feel like it going to the battlefield tapped would better discourage players from keeping aggro hands with no lands, since if it went to the hand, you could play it untapped.

Introducing even more shuffling makes this a no-go right off the bat. Free mana-fixing, deck-thinning and guaranteeing a better curve out also makes this significantly more powerful than Hearthstone's system. Control decks would probably chose to draw every time.

 

[Hero]

I started playing in 1994 so yeah I find that unlikely and people sandbag cards all of the time. I honestly don't know how you think that miracles.gif, a gif that exists to show that miracles is BS, is in fact a gif that shows that Miracles is pretty cool.

It's the same reason cascade is a horrible mechanic.

So wait, you've been playing since 1994 and are still complaining about land screw? Been playing since then as well. I forget when I accepted land screw as part of playing a randomized card game but it probably was before 2000.

Cascade is horrible because free spells are always broken.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Decide to do another online sealed PPTQ.

First round opponent has Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, Reality Smasher and Linvala.

 

[Yeef]

I still think it could have been better even in their situation. Just from viewing the spoiler I had some suspicions about the set, and after only playing with it a bit my suspicions were confirmed. I think the set would have been acceptable if they had just emphasized ingest & process a bit more, and had beefed up the power level of some cards. It seemed so weird to me how Gideon, Drana, Ulamog, basically the mythics in general were good, and then most of the rares and lower cards were bad.

This was explained during BFZ's release window; originally Standard was still going to be 2 years even after the 2-set block change. Since they didn't have the core set they needed to keep the complexity of standard down, which meant making simpler rares. Late in the process, they realized that it was causing issues and shortened Standard to 18 months, which allows for more complexity at the individual card level.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Went 2-1 and opened a TKS in my prize pack.

Might keep this one for Kozilek EDH. Woah just noticed, we need snow covered wastes. Khaldheim please.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

Ugh, we're in this weird deadzone again with GatheringMagic and ChannelFireball and their draft videos. It was worse with BFZ, though, I guess.

They seem to stockpile the draft videos for later in the format and as time goes on, I really don't care as much (especially when spoilers and shit starts happening).

 

[G.ZZZ]

One possibility as an alternative for the "coin" is this rule:

both player draw a card in their first turn.
The player going second may start the game playing a land from their hand on the battlefield tapped.

It doesn't involve additional shuffling and it's relatively simple and straightforward, but it may make going second too good. It could be tried in more casual formats to see how much it actually skew winrates. This essentially make the 2nd be what now would be the first player, but his first land enter the battlefield tapped.

Or an even easier way:

the first land of the game enter the battlefield tapped.

Which is essentially the same as the change proposed before as far as i can see.

 

[Angry Grimace]

So wait, you've been playing since 1994 and are still complaining about land screw? Been playing since then as well. I forget when I accepted land screw as part of playing a randomized card game but it probably was before 2000.

Cascade is horrible because free spells are always broken.

Something that sucks doesn't stop sucking via the passage of time. 20% of games being non-games is still bad; hence the number of people in this thread, right now, discussing alternatives to the way it works now. I have no idea why you're trying to defend Miracles via reference to completely separate, irrelevant arguments about the game, much less trying to pull the seniority card. What does that have to do with whether "topdecks matter" are good mechanics? Cool, you don't care about any of the issues with the game's resource system. Now tell me again why that has anything to do with Miracles?

The issue is one of good game design - when you do have knowledge of what your opponent is top-decking, them doing so is tilting. When the game explicitly encourages and rewards it, its extra tilting and I don't think the design space is worth the aggravation. There are lots of mechanics that could exist, but don't because they're frustrating - its the same reason why Fateseal isn't something they would revisit and the same reason why prison decks rarely exist in Standard. Topdecking a good card should mostly be rewarded by the card being good. I don't much care for Jesse Mason's reviews, but he sums it up pretty well:

"Usually, when hatred of Avacyn Restored arises as a conversation topic, miracles are the mechanic that people single out. However, my brain is just so overflowing with dislike that they usually don’t scrape the top ten list. I do acknowledge others’ frustration at them, though, and I think it’s bad design to play up what’s generally a frustrating moment in a game. That is: the game is neck and neck, your opponent draws something, bam, the game ends. The loser grunts angrily and eyebrows-down-walks away. The mechanic of miracle changes this to: “I drew this card THIS TURN! I WASN’T planning it at all! I got it from PURE LUCK, and I get a DISCOUNT ON THE SPELL because I JUST DREW IT! This card! The spell that won the game.” It’s the most aggressive rub-in possible, and the mechanic mandates it."

 

[noquarter]

How about after getting your initial hand you can choose to get a basic land from your deck and add it to your hand. If you do you show your opponent your hand and they choose a nonland card to put on top of your library then shuffle your library.

Probably makes the penalty too severe for choosing to get a basic, but also gives you the option.

Suppose it could also be that you remove up to three land cards from your hand then your opponent randomly chooses a card to put on top. Revealing land usually only affects the first game, doesn't give up to much information, but also allows you to get a better starting hand.

 

[jph139]

I like Miracle a lot, but I also like high variance games. That's why I prefer limited and EDH to most constructed formats - the more consistent the game is, the less engaging I find it. (For similar reasons I really dislike tutors in EDH - it diminishes one of the biggest draws to me as a format.)

But I'm a super cheap, casual, weekend player. I'm not willing to spend more than $5 on a card, I'm not drafting twice a week, and I'm not strongly invested in the outcome of my games. If I was putting down over a grand on a stack of cardboard I'd probably change my tune.

I think that a vast majority of players are in my boat, though - they'd be fine with winning or losing, as long as it's flashy and memorable.

 

[ironmang]

I think a free mulligan would do the best to eliminate non-games while still keeping the game work the same. Or even you get an extra scry for each extra card you lose to mulligans. Like scry 2 for a mull to 5.

Really though as much as it sucks to mulligan to 4 and get crushed or topdeck nothing but lands, variance is a big appeal of the game. The idea that you can beat anybody, even the best in the world, makes going into a tournament or even fnm as a new player a lot less intimidating. Nothing like say CSGO where I feel I'm in the top 5% easily yet no way in hell would I ever be able to compete with the best in the world.

 

[Firemind]

20% of games being non-games is still bad

This seems overly pessimistic? Unless you also mean games where both players have the lands to play spells but one gets overrun by the other.

 

[Crocodile]

A new Shadows over Innistrad card got spoiled:

Clip Wings
1G
Instant
Each Opponent sacrifices a creature with flying

Source

 

[G.ZZZ]

A new Shadows over Innistrad card got spoiled:

Clip Wings
1G
Each Opponent sacrifices a creature with flying

This as an instant is a mono green answer to emrakul. Which is cute but super narrow

 

[Ashodin]

A new Shadows over Innistrad card got spoiled:

Clip Wings
1G
Each Opponent sacrifices a creature with flying

Source

Ooh that flavor text. Also s-s-s-s-s-s-s-sideboard!

We're going to have another conspiracy title update tomorrow aren't we

 

[SigmasonicX]

A new Shadows over Innistrad card got spoiled:

Clip Wings
1G
Instant
Each Opponent sacrifices a creature with flying

Source

Odd that it's so huge. It seems like one of those big cards they use during PAX and other conventions, but are there any coming up? In any case, crazy angels confirmed.

 

[OnPoint]

Dat flavor text on Clip Wings.

It's a grim duty to save the world from those created to protect it.

I still want to believe Nahiri was turned into Avacyn and Emrakul passing by set her free.

 

[Ashodin]

Dat flavor text on Clip Wings.

It's a grim duty to save the world from those created to protect it.

I still want to believe Nahiri was turned into Avacyn and Emrakul passing by set her free.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Angry Grimace]

This seems overly pessimistic? Unless you also mean games where both players have the lands to play spells but one gets overrun by the other.

I just mean any games in which someone does not get land and the game is basically a no-contest. It's a problem, at least enough of one that lots of games have been invented that try to just be Magic without that.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It's a green edict that's quite the expansion to greens colour pie.

It still can't kill Sigarda lol

That's actually hilarious

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's a green edict that's quite the expansion to greens colour pie.

It still can't kill Sigarda lol

It does kill Ojutai though.

 

[OnPoint]

I wonder if this means we'll get the black angel in the two-color angel cycle, too, or if it'll just be a two-color Avacyn haha

 

[Ashodin]

dude I bet Nahiri modifies Avacyn once she finds out he modeled it after her. She goes ham and Nahiri gets revenge on Sorin for letting Zendikar get fucked up. Good old fashioned revenge.

 

[Firemind]

Ooh that flavor text. Also s-s-s-s-s-s-s-sideboard!

We're going to have another conspiracy title update tomorrow aren't we

dat horrible cg art

 

[charlequin]

I think a free mulligan would do the best to eliminate non-games while still keeping the game work the same. Or even you get an extra scry for each extra card you lose to mulligans. Like scry 2 for a mull to 5.

Really though as much as it sucks to mulligan to 4 and get crushed or topdeck nothing but lands, variance is a big appeal of the game. The idea that you can beat anybody, even the best in the world, makes going into a tournament or even fnm as a new player a lot less intimidating. Nothing like say CSGO where I feel I'm in the top 5% easily yet no way in hell would I ever be able to compete with the best in the world.

Odd that it's so huge. It seems like one of those big cards they use during PAX and other conventions, but are there any coming up? In any case, crazy angels confirmed.

Historically for the fall sets (which were the only starts of blocks) they always did a big blowout intro with oversized cards, because PAX was the right time in the calendar. I can't imagine their marketing team would let the second (theoretically equal in stature) block in a year get less of an intro. PAX East isn't early enough this year, though, so they'd have to do it somewhere else. Also, Blake Rasmussen hinted at "something" that sounded like it could be a reveal event. I'd guess something at one of the US GPs on the next two weekends, because mothership previews are gonna start on the 14th.

I still want to believe Nahiri was turned into Avacyn and Emrakul passing by set her free.

 

[OnPoint]

But it's so fun to imagine scenarios where it works. C'mon!

• The great planeswalker de-powering happens and Sorin realizes Nahiri is now mortal
• Sorin also has to do something to save Innistrad
• He concots some weird plan where Nahiri creates a hedron for whatever and he traps her inside
• This keeps her in suspended animation but also acts as a conduit that channels her power to create Avacyn
• This lasts for thousands of years or whatever
• Events of Innistrad happen
• Emrakul cruising through the multiverse commits a madness driveby on the plane, and shatters the Hedron housing Nahiri
• Turns out she was conscious the whole time. Oops!
• She mad.

Take THAT official fiction!

 

[Giant Panda]

But it's so fun to imagine scenarios where it works. C'mon!

• The great planeswalker de-powering happens and Sorin realizes Nahiri is now mortal
• Sorin also has to do something to save Innistrad
• He concots some weird plan where Nahiri creates a hedron for whatever and he traps her inside
• This keeps her in suspended animation but also acts as a conduit that channels her power to create Avacyn
• This lasts for thousands of years or whatever
• Events of Innistrad happen
• Emrakul cruising through the multiverse commits a madness driveby on the plane, and shatters the Hedron housing Nahiri
• Turns out she was conscious the whole time. Oops!
• She mad.

Take THAT official fiction!

Still better than the Nissa stories.

 

[blindrocket]

I bought a random pack today, pulled Chandra, Flamecaller. Not too bad a pull.

Her 0 ability seems like it could be good with Madness coming up.