Support NeoGAF

[SigmasonicX]

Yeah the guy is trying to explain to him how to win more often and he's like "I can't do that because winning is really important to me and you don't get that."

You read the first page thinking it was the newest one?

Anyway, today's Daily Update contains the Intro Pack lists. And this note.

If we're being honest, this is pretty much all people have been talking about in Magic's corner of the internet—the store proxy policy that has been inundating the Reddit forums for the past 36 or so hours.

Look for more on this soon on DailyMTG.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Maybe I'm just playing the wrong guys but I don't get when I keep hearing statements like "The fact is that the RG deck doesn't have many threats—but the threats they do have are “maximum effect.” So, removing their ability to cast their over-the-top win conditions [with Infinite Obliteration] basically turns their deck into a big pile of ramp spells and little else."

I don't know what decks these people are playing but I just win through Obliteration all the time. You just play around it by diversifying your threats, e.g. Ugin. Or Atarka. Or Oblivion Sower. Or Void Winnower. Or Gaea's Revenge. Or Hangarback in a pinch. It's only going to get worse when you can tutor for more threats with World Breaker and Kozilek. I don't keep 4 Ulamog in the game in game 2 against black decks...

Has anyone actually asked WOTC about the Event Decks and Clash Packs?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Also, I'm pretty sure Thought-Knot Seer is a card you guys think is cool right now, but mark my words, y'all will be howling for it to rotate out in no time at all. Matter Reshaper into Thought-Knot into Reality Smasher is going to be the bullshit you will be cursing WOTC for a year from now when the new sets of cards aren't able to replace it.

 

[kirblar]

Also, I'm pretty sure Thought-Knot Seer is a card you guys think is cool right now, but you'll be howling for it to rotate in no time at all.

This is every high power card.

 

[WanderingWind]

What're you looking to get for them? I don't have a set currently and I'm intrigued.

I was hoping for a straight trade for a playset in English.

 

[Jhriad]

And this note.

Probably just going to reiterate the same shit that Helene said just in a longer form.

I was hoping for a straight trade for a playset in English.

Ah,okay. Wish I had a set for ya. You might try the weekly reddit trading thread to see if anyone is interested.

 

[Matriox]

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/146220

Ur Tempo? Aggro control? Idk, deck seems sweet though.

 

[ultron87]

So is the 2HG Sealed strategy just assuming every game is going to last forever so play every big expensive thing (within reason)?

 

[ThLunarian]

So is the 2HG Sealed strategy just assuming every game is going to last forever so play every big expensive thing (within reason)?

Evasion, evasion, evasion.

Also remember that your rounds are only 1 game. Play 18 land minimum. Play artifact and enchantment destruction and counterspells main deck.

It can be incredibly tricky to know when to burn removal on an early threat and when to save the removal because you think you can stabilize without it.

Every turn is way swingier than in a normal Magic game. Your opponents can go from "dead with no outs" to "insurmountable lead" in the blink of an eye.

Good luck

 

[aidan]

Creatures "train" with the equipment

How is that more fun?

What about a variation on Prowess?

Armament 1 (At the beginning of your upkeep, if this creature is equipped it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)​

Flavourwise this indicates a weapons-master who is more deadly with any sort of equipment than their less skilled allies.

 

[y2dvd]

4 Matter Reshaper
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Oblivion Sower
2 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

4 Explosive Vegetation
3 Map the Wastes
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Warping Wail
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

9 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Waste
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
4 Wooded Foothills

SB
1 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Kozilek
2 Hallowed Moonlight
3 Rending Volley
4 Kozelik's Return
1 Void Winnower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Made some slight adjustments. The more I think about Thought-Knot, the more I think it is fine mb. Switched Displacer out for them.

Brought Kozilek down to a 1-of. I never mind seeing multiple copies if Ulamog that I can cast back to back. Kozilek's value diminishes pretty quickly with multiple copies tho. Plus, 5 copies of 10cmc is excessive. Some deck list don't even run the full set of Ulamogs prior to Oaths. 3 Ulamogs and 1 Kozilek sounds right to me. Left another Kozilek in the sb for grindier matches.

Removed Oaths of Nissa for Warping Wail. Warping Wail is just too versital.

Threw in a Waste in there. May be necessary to search for if I can't draw Santum, Shrine, or Haven.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think the biggest problem with ramp is going to be dealing with opposing Thought-Knots. The deck doesn't really have that many ways to deal with them and Thoughtseize effects are the best cards against the deck, not to mention a relative lack of means of even getting a card back.

 

[Neoweee]

What about a variation on Prowess?

Armament 1 (At the beginning of your upkeep, if this creature is equipped it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)​

Flavourwise this indicates a weapons-master who is more deadly with any sort of equipment than their less skilled allies.

It works better as an "at the start of combat..." trigger.

 

[kirblar]

That list is going to get blown up in the mirror.

 

[bigkrev]

So is the 2HG Sealed strategy just assuming every game is going to last forever so play every big expensive thing (within reason)?

Don't keep shakey hands. It's a 1 game match, not a best of 3.

 

[aidan]

It works better as an "at the start of combat..." trigger.

Right, to give the opportunity to equip or move equipment. So:

Armament 1 (At the beginning of combat, if this creature is equipped it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)​

 

[LaserBuddha]

That is boring as hell and just makes it a bad version of various Leonin/Kor creatures that get bonuses for being equipped. At least make it +1/+1 for each equipment attached to it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's about time for everyone to vomit up their terrible brews right? Because I got a ton of 'em!

Deck: UBC Eldrazi

//Creatures
4 Fathom Feeder
4 Bearer of Silence
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

//Artifact
4 Ghostfire Blade

//Spells
3 Titan's Presence
2 Warping Wail
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Duress
1 Dispel
1 Transgress the Mind
1 Murderous Cut

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sunken Hollow
1 Ruins of Oran-Rief
2 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
3 Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
1 Mirrorpool
2 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Swamp
2 Island

//Sideboard
1 Endbringer
2 Duress
1 Transgress the Mind
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Virulent Plague
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Display deck statistics

You might ask yourself, "Angry Grimace, what's the point of blue in the deck" and the answer is "IDK I like Fathom Feeder."

 

[Crocodile]

Ok it seems WOTC got its foot out of its mouth about Proxies and issued a statement that basically reflects their previous stance - unsanctioned events with proxies are fine and proxies =/= counterfeits (which are obviously super bad). They admit that many people on their payroll said wrong/dumb things on the subject (*cough* Trick *cough*) and they apologize since it caused confusion.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Alison was good at her job. Trick is utter shit at being her follow up.

 

[Daedardus]

Ok it seems WOTC got its foot out of its mouth about Proxies and issued a statement that basically reflects their previous stance - unsanctioned events with proxies are fine and proxies =/= counterfeits (which are obviously super bad). They admit that many people on their payroll said wrong/dumb things on the subject (*cough* Trick *cough*) and they apologize since it caused confusion.

This seems like a fair and thought out response, good that they reacted to this as quickly as they could before it got bad. Glad they aren't going out on a witch hunt for playtesting at your LGS.

 

[kirblar]

Alison was good at her job. Trick is utter shit at being her follow up.

The difference between Elaine and Trick on this stuff is unreal.

 

[ultron87]

Pretty good response. It ignores unsanctioned proxy tournaments, which is basically the closest they can probably get to going "wink wink".

Glad to see it also admits their communication has been shit lately.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Someone at Wizards responsible for customer relations must have returned from his or her winter vacation of a couple months and been like

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm just tired of Wizard Scandals and having to hear what a guy named "Trick" thinks about basically anything.

 

[ultron87]

It must be a bit weird for them to be tacitly admitting that if you're playing casual Magic there's no reason to actually buy cards.

 

[pigeon]

Right, to give the opportunity to equip or move equipment. So:

Armament 1 (At the beginning of combat, if this creature is equipped it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)​

Again, this is just a more confusing version of "while this creature is equipped." Why not just use the existing technology? How does this produce better gameplay experiences?

 

[Daedardus]

It must be a bit weird for them to be tacitly admitting that if you're playing casual Magic there's no reason to actually buy cards.

How would they ever stop you from doing that? You can also make your own Monopoly board, drill your own Connect 4... but that doesn't mean a large amount of people will opt for the convenience and quality of the actual thing.

 

[The Adder]

Right, to give the opportunity to equip or move equipment. So:

Armament 1 (At the beginning of combat, if this creature is equipped it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)​

Working from the original

Armament 1 (At the beginning of your turn, if this creature is equipped and no +1/+1 counter were put on it last turn, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature)​

 

[SigmasonicX]

A good introduction to Two-Headed Giant

As for armament, perhaps making it an ability word would better reflect the original intentions with balance.
Armament -- If this creature is equipped, it has +2/+2.
Armament -- If this creature is equipped, it has flying.
etc.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Again, this is just a more confusing version of "while this creature is equipped." Why not just use the existing technology? How does this produce better gameplay experiences?

It would only apply after main phase 1 alternatively Whenever CARDNAME attacks or blocks and is equipped it gets +1/+1 until end of combat/turn whatever is preferred because of damage retention would work too. Works worse with Quickdraw though.

How about "Whenever CARDNAME becomes equipped and has no +1/+1 counter on it you may put a +1/+1 counter on it." Would work great with Quickdraw.

 

[pigeon]

It would only apply after main phase 1 alternatively Whenever CARDNAME attacks or blocks and is equipped it gets +1/+1 until end of combat/turn whatever is preferred because of damage retention would work too

I understand that it is different in some ways. The question is why is it better from a game design perspective? It's more complicated, has weird side effects, and requires more bookkeeping. How does it improve gameplay sufficiently to justify the disadvantages? Like, that is the purpose of game design, to make fun game experiences. So what are the fun game experiences that this enables that the simpler version doesn't?

 

[SigmasonicX]

If anything, this feedback seems to show that people generally prefer the first version of armament (+1/+1 counter on upkeep if equipped). There's no need to be concerned about power level until you start testing, and there are multiple solutions if it's too powerful, including having an upkeep cost for the ability.

 

[y2dvd]

That list is going to get blown up in the mirror.

Why?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I understand that it is different in some ways. The question is why is it better from a game design perspective? It's more complicated, has weird side effects, and requires more bookkeeping. How does it improve gameplay sufficiently to justify the disadvantages? Like, that is the purpose of game design, to make fun game experiences. So what are the fun game experiences that this enables that the simpler version doesn't?

As it exists already there's 2 ways to interact with it, remove the creature or remove the equipment and only if it's a threat.

If armament keeps growing creatures the threat increases and might put the creature out of range of removal so the opponent will be forced to interact with it.

If armament is only active during and after the combat phase the opponent can interact with the creature prior to these phases.

Or on triggering or whatever. More options for interaction are imo good and fun so long as they aren't too complicated, which they shouldn't be upon further refinement.

 

[Haines]

Looking for a bit of SEALED event advice.

So im learning more and more that sealed plays out completely different from draft. Which i understand is essentially from most decks being mishmashes of what cards they are stuck with, and thus being a lot slower, and lower power til maybe a top end bomb.

My question is this. How does deckbuilding change and card value change.

For instance. In a blue oath review, lsv says negate is 1.0 but he would main deck it in sealed. Is this just because you could habe more times where mana is free to counter a spell bc its slower?

What changes in sealed for deckbuilding for you guys? Almost all reviews are based on draft, so you get a mindset for that, but ive heard LR essinatially say green is unplayable, but totally playable on sealed nc you know what green cards you have.

Maybe there are good articles on the difference and its just a matter of looking them up.

 

[kirblar]

Why?

You ever play Odyssey Block Constructed? (Aka Mono-Black Control mirrors: the format)

This matchup feels very similar- it's all about resource denial. You will lose that war w/ 0 World Breakers.

Also, I think Matter Reshaper's actively bad here?

 

[Angry Grimace]

You ever play Odyssey Block Constructed? (Aka Mono-Black Control mirrors: the format)

This matchup feels very similar- it's all about resource denial. You will lose that war w/ 0 World Breakers.

Also, I think Matter Reshaper's actively bad here?

I think its acceptable since land counts in the death trigger - it can chump a big attack and then ramp you. I wouldn't personally run it, but its not a really bad choice, I think.

 

[Ashodin]

You guys discussing my mechanic, <3!

Also thinking of giving abilities to creatures that are equipped (or stronger versions of them).

Ex

T: CARDNAME deals 1 to target creature. If it's equipped, deal 3 instead.

 

[Angry Grimace]

There's no reason for that ability to be keyworded as far as I can tell - keywords only need to exist if they have some kind of rules function where a word needs a specific meaning and rules function. The reason they don't keyword abilities like that is that it adds to rules bloat. If WOTC were to design a mechanic like that, I think they would likely just make it an ability word where "being equipped matters" but the actual function can vary (even if most of the time it doesn't, like Cohort or Rally). For example, the ability you are describing could be:

T: ~ deals 1 damage to target creature.
Armament &#8212; If ~ is equipped, it deals 3 damage to target creature instead.

That kind of "equipment matters" function isn't ground breaking by any means, but very few abilities in the game are - a ton of them are just kicker with different words.

 

[Ashodin]

Oh no no, this is just icing on creatures. Not a replacement for armament. I like the +1/+1 counters because it feels the creature is getting adept with the weapons or armor.

 

[aidan]

Oh no no, this is just icing on creatures. Not a replacement for armament. I like the +1/+1 counters because it feels the creature is getting adept with the weapons or armor.

I think AG is advocating for expanding the possibilities tied to Armament. So an equipped creature could get +2/+0 until end of turn, get a +1/+1 counter, gain first strike, etc. Similar to the way Constellation works.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Oh no no, this is just icing on creatures. Not a replacement for armament. I like the +1/+1 counters because it feels the creature is getting adept with the weapons or armor.

There's still no reason why it should be a keyword unless there's something else about the set that cares about the keyword and having it as a keyword actually limits your design space in terms of caring about equipment significantly. Awaken, for example, is a keyword because there's at least one creature that actually cares about Awaken (Halimar Tidecaller) as a specific keyword.

I think AG is advocating for expanding the possibilities tied to Armament. So an equipped creature could get +2/+0 until end of turn, get a +1/+1 counter, gain first strike, etc. Similar to the way Constellation works.

Correct: to be blunt, I don't think the ability is particularly interesting or powerful as written, and it has quite a few clunky rules issues. Equipment aren't *that* far off from auras: they have to do something more interesting to be playable than give you an extra +X/+X. It's reminds of a form of Prowess that isn't nearly as good.

 

[Jhriad]

For instance. In a blue oath review, lsv says negate is 1.0 but he would main deck it in sealed. Is this just because you could habe more times where mana is free to counter a spell bc its slower?

What changes in sealed for deckbuilding for you guys? Almost all reviews are based on draft, so you get a mindset for that, but ive heard LR essinatially say green is unplayable, but totally playable on sealed nc you know what green cards you have.

Maybe there are good articles on the difference and its just a matter of looking them up.

I'd maindeck Negate in sealed because a) it answers bomb-ish non-creature spells rather well and b) when your deck is even clunkier than a draft deck would be it's more important to be able to protect your important pieces from removal.

The only real changes I make for Sealed is that I'm more willing to play edge case creatures. If it's borderline on the vanilla test, it's probably going to be better in sealed than it would be in draft so keep that in mind when deckbuilding. Depending on format & card pool you're not going to be able to consistently build a deck with a lot of synergy so it's more of a "Good Stuff and Good Enough" approach.

 

[Ashodin]

There's still no reason why it should be a keyword unless there's something else about the set that cares about the keyword and having it as a keyword actually limits your design space in terms of caring about equipment significantly. Awaken, for example, is a keyword because there's at least one creature that actually cares about Awaken (Halimar Tidecaller) as a specific keyword.

Ahh I see. Yes there are other cards that care about armament.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Black is so good in OGW draft. Lots of removal, high-quality creatures with toughness higher than red gets most removal for, all at common.

I don't even try, but just picking the best cards in every pack I always wind up Bx.

Also, special shout-outs to this guy at uncommon:

Such a good combo with your Translators and all the colorless <> generators.

I also like how much fixing there is. It's pretty easy to splash a couple cards while also getting enough <> sources. So far the format is proving more fun than 3x BFZ.

 

[red13th]

Wait so they backtracked on the whole "proxies are counterfeit cards" Trick Garret announcement?

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's kind of sad panda that there are 5 cards in this set that you can get as limited rares that care about Planeswalkers.

 

[kirblar]

It's kind of sad panda that there are 5 cards in this set that you can get as limited rares that care about Planeswalkers.

Only one is useless without them.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Only one is useless without them.

It's still a feelbad to open your pre-release pack and get Oath of Chandra or something as your pre-release foil. The actual effect that they do in limited are basically what you'd expect from a common. Not to mention I suppose you could get foil Hedron Alignment.

Also, why is the Prerelease foil of Ulamog (and apparently Kozilek) worth so much? Usually the prereleases are worth less than pack foils.