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[OnPoint]

Iirc Ajani has never been Naya allign. Yeah, he was raised there, but his Red Streak was his anger at Bolas over the death of his brother. It's been mentioned by Wizards that he's mellowed out.

A Naya Ajani would have gone with the Gatewatch to Amonkhet and would be completely against his development, since he's been taming his Red(and arguably helping others tame it). In other words, Ajani is the best chance of curing Nahiri's madness that she left Innistrad under.

I am aware of how he's been written. He was White, White-Red, then White-Green. I get that he's mellowed out in the narrative, but it would have been cool to see him fulfill what many guessed his path would be and have him go full Naya.

Ah well. Yet another planeswalker for them to add to the roster and not touch for 5-10 years.

 

[Santiako]

Ajani will sacrifice himself to stop Bolas from roflstomping the Gatewatch. Then goes to the underworld to find Elspeth.

He's not in the block. We saw him in the boosters for the then named Conquest of Power (second set of Atlazan Ixalan block).

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Ajani will sacrifice himself to stop Bolas from roflstomping the Gatewatch. Then goes to the underworld to find Elspeth.

Wouldn't he need to die on Theros for that to work?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

That just makes it sound like it's bad to be red, a Naya Ajani would embrace his heritage and the lessons he's learned.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

That just makes it sound like it's bad to be red, a Naya Ajani would embrace his heritage and the lessons he's learned.

Which is especially funny with how they've been (rightfully) pushing that red is about emotion in general, rather than rage.

 

[Infinite Stars]

That just makes it sound like it's bad to be red, a Naya Ajani would embrace his heritage and the lessons he's learned.

Except Red is very much about living in the short term. Red generally doesn't care about the long term consequences, instead preferring to focus on the now. That's generally one of it's issues with Green. Red Ajaniwas driven by the death of his brother. Him having learned from that is Green, not Red. He literally advises Chandra to not let Vengeance guide her during Kaladesh's story

Naya Ajani would embrace his heritage(and likely form a greater bond with the Gatewatch), but I doubt we'd get him if Samut sparks.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

See that's a bad characterisation for a colour because it says red people are dumb.
Artifice being in red is important because of notions like those, as none of what you said applies to it.

Red Green was the best in Theros, Red in theros was great in particular.

 

[DrArchon]

With regards to new planeswalkers, even though it's obviously going to be Samut sparking out in HoD, I'm still going to be disappointed that we're getting yet another human planeswalker. I understand that humans/humanoid creatures are obviously more marketable, but there are so many cool races in Magic and very few of them have been represented as a planeswalker.

Why couldn't we have gotten a Jackal-folk planeswalker? Or a Naga planeswalker?

 

[Firemind]

Wouldn't he need to die on Theros for that to work?

Plot twist: Amonkhet is in Theros.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Plot twist: Amonkhet is in Theros.

The fake split Elspeth card was actually real all along.

 

[Infinite Stars]

See that's a bad characterisation for a colour because it says red people are dumb.
Artifice being in red is important because of notions like those, as none of what you said applies to it.

Living the short term is not Dumb by default. I'm not saying seconds, hell Feldon even symbolizes this. He's driven by emotion but his emotion leads him to an ultimately short term goal of keeping his wife around as a robot.

I mean, Pia Nalaar isn't dumb, but her ultimate goal of a revolution against the Consulate is addressing a short term problem (Unfair actions of the Consulate within the span of her life). Red is Daretti and he's definitely not dumb. Red is Koth, he's not dumb, but all of these characters share the idea of dealing with a relatively short term issue.

Red is the color that sees a short term problem and aims to fix it. Red is the color I'd put most Revolutions under, while UW are the colors that think about the big long term issues. Red cares that their family is starving right now, UW ponders about things like rising sea levels.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Living the short term is not Dumb by default. I'm not saying seconds, hell Feldon even symbolizes this. He's driven by emotion but his emotion leads him to an ultimately short term goal of keeping his wife around as a robot.

I mean, Pia Nalaar isn't dumb, but her ultimate goal of a revolution against the Consulate is addressing a short term problem (Unfair actions of the Consulate within the span of her life). Red is Daretti and he's definitely not dumb. Red is Koth, he's not dumb, but all of these characters share the idea of dealing with a relatively short term issue.

Red is the color that sees a short term problem and aims to fix it. Red is the color I'd put most Revolutions under, while UW are the colors that think about the big long term issues. Red cares that their family is starving right now, UW ponders about things like rising sea levels.

Not caring about long term consequences is dumb. Red still builds clans and other kinds of social gatherings, those can't continue existing w/ just short term planning.

And you're making my point with this, Artifice is seemingly the only area where red is allowed to be more than dumb. Ajani has to stop Chandra from being stupid to get vengeance, he stopped being red because he got over his anger.
Koth was stupid red, he recruited venser by molding his helmet over his face. Koth is still fighting on Mirrodin, I would hardly call this a short term issue.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Not caring about long term consequences is dumb. Red still builds clans and other kinds of social gatherings, those can't continue existing w/ just short term planning.

And you're making my point with this, Artifice is seemingly the only area where red is allowed to be more than dumb. Ajani has to stop Chandra from being stupid to get vengeance, he stopped being red because he got over his anger.
Koth was stupid red, he recruited venser by molding his helmet over his face. Koth is still fighting on Mirrodin, I would hardly call this a short term issue.

Koth is letting his personal ties to Mirrodin's overlook the fact that Mirrodin is 99% lost short of a miracle. That's not dumb, that's stubborn. Dumb would be him running around yelling who he is to the Phyrexians who want nothing more then to escape from New Phyrexia.

Wizards paints Red as Anger because it's a card game and it's generally difficult to portray love on a magic card.

Short term planning is only as short as when you think when it's taken to the Extreme. The American Revolution and early government was a red event that lasted for 5-10 years but it still was an ultimately short term idea driven by an idea of freedom.

Red is dumb when it acts literally in the moment. Blue is dumb when it becomes so obsessed with what could be that it ignores the present. White is dumb when it obeys the letter and not the spirit of the law. Green is dumb when it misses the forest for the trees (Literally). Black is dumb when it lets greed rule. Dumb is not exclusively Red, and it's still only a small part of their pie(in theory). Wizard's just can't portray humor that well on cards.

 

[OnPoint]

Wizards paints Red as Anger because it's a card game and it's generally difficult to portray love on a magic card.

It's not that it's difficult. It's that they've already reached perfection

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Koth is letting his personal ties to Mirrodin's overlook the fact that Mirrodin is 99% lost short of a miracle. That's not dumb, that's stubborn. Dumb would be him running around yelling who he is to the Phyrexians who want nothing more then to escape from New Phyrexia.

Wizards paints Red as Anger because it's a card game and it's generally difficult to portray love on a magic card.

Short term planning is only as short as when you think when it's taken to the Extreme. The American Revolution and early government was a red event that lasted for 5-10 years but it still was an ultimately short term idea driven by an idea of freedom.

Red is dumb when it acts literally in the moment. Blue is dumb when it becomes so obsessed with what could be that it ignores the present. White is dumb when it obeys the letter and not the spirit of the law. Green is dumb when it misses the forest for the trees (Literally). Black is dumb when it lets greed rule. Dumb is not exclusively Red, and it's still only a small part of their pie(in theory). Wizard's just can't portray humor that well on cards.

While that's true, red is the only one seemingly stuck in 'dumb' mode. Also, as we've seen from cards like Cathartic Reunion, they can show the other sides of red (quite well!) they just didn't for a while and 'dumb red' stuck.

 

[charlequin]

I do find it interesting that Samut is likely going to spark and be a Naya 'walker, and directly oppose Bolas where as they could have just had Ajani be Naya and oppose Bolas already. I get that he's GW now, but I thought they were trying to cut back on the amount of new planeswalkers they were running out there is all.

They did cut back, they're only doing an average of one new PW per block.

 

[OnPoint]

They did cut back, they're only doing an average of one new PW per block.

I guess it makes sense with Ajani's path diverging from where I thought it was going to go.

That said? Good. Now let's start dusting off some of those in the roster and having them play parts.

 

[Infinite Stars]

It's not that it's difficult. It's that they've already reached perfection

I keep forgetting Enthralling Victor is a card, but I love the art so much.

While that's true, red is the only one seemingly stuck in 'dumb' mode. Also, as we've seen from cards like Cathartic Reunion, they can show the other sides of red (quite well!) they just didn't for a while and 'dumb red' stuck.

Yeah, that's an issue. Red is lumped in with Dumb because Blue is lumped in with smart and they've got to be opposites so dumb red it is.

If they could just move away from dumb red as the default baseline that'd be great. I mean, Goblin Guide's flavor text feels like an indictment of "Red is dumb" and I wish we'd get more Guides/Purphoros/Feldon/Pias in Red then dumb brutes.

 

[platypotamus]

I kind of love it when Magic trips over itself like this.

http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/160487215239/weird-card-interaction-alert-kalitas-anointed

Some additional hilarious interactions from the comments on Reddit. If you have Kalitas and Anointed Procession on the battlefield, and you kill an opponent's creature with different spells, you get different results:

• Fatal Push gives you two zombies.
• Grasp of Darkness gives you one zombie.
• Killing an artifact creature with K-Command's "destroy target artifact mode" gives you two zombies.
• Killing an artifact creature with K-Command's "deal two damage" mode gives you one zombie.

I guess I don't understand the difference between a replacement effect and a triggered ability? Kalitas' thing is a triggered ability triggered off a non token creature an opponent controls getting dead, isn't it?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Koth is letting his personal ties to Mirrodin's overlook the fact that Mirrodin is 99% lost short of a miracle. That's not dumb, that's stubborn. Dumb would be him running around yelling who he is to the Phyrexians who want nothing more then to escape from New Phyrexia.

Wizards paints Red as Anger because it's a card game and it's generally difficult to portray love on a magic card.

Short term planning is only as short as when you think when it's taken to the Extreme. The American Revolution and early government was a red event that lasted for 5-10 years but it still was an ultimately short term idea driven by an idea of freedom.

Red is dumb when it acts literally in the moment. Blue is dumb when it becomes so obsessed with what could be that it ignores the present. White is dumb when it obeys the letter and not the spirit of the law. Green is dumb when it misses the forest for the trees (Literally). Black is dumb when it lets greed rule. Dumb is not exclusively Red, and it's still only a small part of their pie(in theory). Wizard's just can't portray humor that well on cards.

Koth doesn't have anything else to fight for, he can't get his people off Mirrodin.

Wizards had the chance to paint red in a different light with Kaladesh but instead they had to be rebels and the dumb pilots (as in reckless) and they didn't even get a modern plant from revolt

Red is dumb on a much more regular basis.

I guess I don't understand the difference between a replacement effect and a triggered ability? Kalitas' thing is a triggered ability triggered off a non token creature an opponent controls getting dead, isn't it?

A replacement effect doesn't use the stack. The interaction between Anointed Procession and Kalitas becomes much easier to understand when you consider whether the death of a creature was caused directly by a card (i.e. "destroy") or by State-Based-Actions (lethal damage, 0 or less toughness)

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I guess I don't understand the difference between a replacement effect and a triggered ability? Kalitas' thing is a triggered ability triggered off a non token creature an opponent controls getting dead, isn't it?

You have to unravel quite a few things.

Kalitas says that instead of putting certain creatures in the graveyard, you put them in exile and create a 2/2 zombie instead.

Fatal Push says "destroy target creature," which means (ignoring indestructible creatures) "put target creature in the graveyard." Under Kalitas, Fatal Push now reads "put target creature in exile and create a 2/2 zombie creature token." Under Kalitas and Anointed Procession, Fatal Push now reads "put target creature in exile and create 2 2/2 zombie creature tokens."

Grasp of Darkness says "target creature gets -4/-4 until end of turn." When the game checks creature states, it sees a creature with 0 or less toughness and says "put the creature into the graveyard." Under Kalitas, the game now says "put the creature into exile and create a 2/2 zombie creature token." Anointed Procession does nothing here because it only rewrites "effects," and an "effect" is not the source of the creature dying - the game's engine is.

It's stupid.

Spoiler

I recognize that it's important for Magic's game engine to be internally consistent in order to maintain the vast library of cards, but the unfortunate side effect is that sometimes cards don't do what they intuitively should do.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Revolt not being in red is... just dumb.

 

[platypotamus]

A replacement effect doesn't use the stack. The interaction between Anointed Procession and Kalitas becomes much easier to understand when you consider whether the death of a creature was caused directly by a card (i.e. "destroy") or by State-Based-Actions (lethal damage, 0 or less toughness)

You have to unravel quite a few things.

Kalitas says that instead of putting certain creatures in the graveyard, you put them in exile and create a 2/2 zombie instead.

So if it didn't have the "instead" thing going on, it would be a triggered ability, but since it has that, it's a replacement effect? Like "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, deal 1 damage to that creature's controller" is a triggered ability, but "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, exile it instead" is a replacement effect? Actually, what if it didn't have the exile part, and said "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, create a 2/2 black zombie token"? Now it's a triggered ability, so I'd get 2, but because of the exile part, it's a replacement effect so I sometimes get one? This seems like these rules need cleaned up

 

[Santiako]

Revolt not being in red is... just dumb.

I think the logic there was that red were already the rebels before the proper Revolt, so they were already revolting.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So if it didn't have the "instead" thing going on, it would be a triggered ability, but since it has that, it's a replacement effect? Like "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, deal 1 damage to that creature's controller" is a triggered ability, but "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, exile it instead" is a replacement effect? Actually, what if it didn't have the exile part, and said "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, create a 2/2 black zombie token"? Now it's a triggered ability, so I'd get 2, but because of the exile part, it's a replacement effect so I sometimes get one? This seems like these rules need cleaned up

Kalitas doesn't say "whenever", he says "If a nontoken creature an opponent controls would die, instead exile that card and create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token."

The real issue is that they copied the templating from Parallel Lives instead of using the updated Primal Vigor.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

I think the logic there was that red were already the rebels before the proper Revolt, so they were already revolting.

That just means they should already have had revolt.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So if it didn't have the "instead" thing going on, it would be a triggered ability, but since it has that, it's a replacement effect? Like "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, deal 1 damage to that creature's controller" is a triggered ability, but "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, exile it instead" is a replacement effect? Actually, what if it didn't have the exile part, and said "Whenever a non token creature controlled by an opponent dies, create a 2/2 black zombie token"? Now it's a triggered ability, so I'd get 2, but because of the exile part, it's a replacement effect so I sometimes get one? This seems like these rules need cleaned up

Kalitas doesn't say whenever, he says "If a nontoken creature an opponent controls would die, instead exile that card and create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token."

That's right. Triggered abilities always start with "when," "whenever," or "at."

"If...instead" is a "replacement effect"

Spoiler

which is royally forking stupid in this case because it doesn't count as a "effect" for Anointed Procession

which you can think of as some that rewrites/redefines the way that other cards behave or the game rules operate.

 

[Zocano]

From my understanding it has to do with what is a triggered card effect from Anointed Processions point of view. The "effect" of a creature dying due to combat damage (or any damage or making of its toughness <= 0) is not a triggered card effect but a consequence of state based actions (using her words) from the actual game rules. The second case is outside of Anointed Processions scope and thus does not apply itself to Kalitas' clause.

 

[platypotamus]

That's right. Triggered abilities always start with "when," "whenever," or "at."

"If...instead" is a "replacement effect"

Spoiler

which is royally forking stupid in this case because it doesn't count as a "effect" for Anointed Procession

which you can think of as some that rewrites/redefines the way that other cards behave or the game rules operate.

I stand by my assessment that these rules could use a clean up pass. Thanks everyone for the knowledge

 

[Giant Panda]

Even with these explanations I'm not getting the difference. In both scenarios the token is only being created in the first place due to Kalitas's ability, so I personally don't see why it matters whether it was from a destroy effect or a state-based action.

 

[kirblar]

Even with these explanations I'm not getting the difference. In both scenarios the token is only being created in the first place due to Kalitas's ability, so I personally don't see why it matters whether it was from a destroy effect or a state-based action.

The issue is that they used a bad template on Parallel Lives, updated it with other cards, then decided to colorshift Parallel Lives word for word instead of giving it the appropriate template.

Errata's the best option here.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Easiest explanation is that SBA are not an effect.

609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.

So when Kalitas say make a 2/2 because that creature died from shock dealing 2 damage to it it's not the Shock that makes the token but the SBA that say "hey this creature is dead".


Anointed Procession should just be worded "If one or more tokens would be created under your control, create twice as many tokens instead".

 

[Ashodin]

Yeah it's easily explained by State Based Actions aren't an effect. Basically if something would cause the GAME RULES to make something die, it won't give the bonus token.

Or in other terms, you have to destroy the creature.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Annoited Procession is seriously hillarious with Embalming the UW Vizier flavorwise:

"Okay, so we took one dude and made two Zombies out of him.

"Wait what? We can't have two Viziers!"

"Fine, Just kill one at random."

 

[Yeef]

It's the same exact reason Rain of Gore doesn't affect lifelink. Kalitas is the only creature in the game with that ability, so odds are they just missed it. If not for being in Standard at the same time, it'd be a pretty narrow corner case.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The only other card I found that could create a similar issue is

 

[Angry Grimace]

I do find it interesting that Samut is likely going to spark and be a Naya 'walker, and directly oppose Bolas where as they could have just had Ajani be Naya and oppose Bolas already. I get that he's GW now, but I thought they were trying to cut back on the amount of new planeswalkers they were running out there is all.

I'm pretty sure he's still Naya even if he doesn't appear in Naya colors specifically. I mean, he's literally from Naya.

It's the same exact reason Rain of Gore doesn't affect lifelink. Kalitas is the only creature in the game with that ability, so odds are they just missed it. If not for being in Standard at the same time, it'd be a pretty narrow corner case.
170330011327[/IMG]

I mean, it wasn't intended to be in Standard anyways and Kalitas doesn't really see much play in Standard.

 

[Violet_0]

I do find it interesting that Samut is likely going to spark and be a Naya 'walker, and directly oppose Bolas where as they could have just had Ajani be Naya and oppose Bolas already. I get that he's GW now, but I thought they were trying to cut back on the amount of new planeswalkers they were running out there is all.

+1: A creature you control gets every keyword until end of turn.

 

[Ashodin]

The only other card I found that could create a similar issue is

yo this card is actually cool as shit in EDH. Imagine that + Notion Thief. All your cards are bears.

also Wayne England KILLED that art.

 

[Infinite Stars]

+1: A creature you control gets every keyword until end of turn.

I mean, jokes aside, I can see Samut being a non-Flip Arlin+Upside.

Like +1 Creatures you control get Vigilance and First Strike until Next Turn, -X Target creature fights another, Ultimate of Keyword Soup.

 

[Santiako]

yo this card is actually cool as shit in EDH. Imagine that + Notion Thief. All your cards are bears.

also Wayne England KILLED that art.

There's a full cycle. The red, green and blue ones saw quite a bit of play in the enchantress decks of yore.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

and the black one is ridiculously powerful in EDH (making each opponent discard) but if I'm reading this correctly it's the only other replacement effect in the game that makes a token.

 

[red13th]

yo this card is actually cool as shit in EDH. Imagine that + Notion Thief. All your cards are bears.

also Wayne England KILLED that art.

he really did, RIP

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

There's a full cycle. The red, green and blue ones saw quite a bit of play in the enchantress decks of yore.

I wish the cycle was modern legal. I'd play them with ensnaring bridge so hard.

 

[TheFlow]

what does it mean to cycle. I see a lot of cards with this.

 

[Santiako]

what does it mean to cycle. I see a lot of cards with this.

You may pay the cycling cost and discard that card to draw a card.

 

[Ashodin]

You may pay the cycling cost and discard that card to draw a card.

Basically a variant of Investigate AMIRITE

(lol)

 

[TheFlow]

You may pay the cycling cost and discard that card to draw a card.

Oh I can do that from my hand, or the card has to be played?

 

[Santiako]

Oh I can do that from my hand, or the card has to be played?

You can only discard from your hand, so it has to be on your hand.

 

[Yeef]

Oh I can do that from my hand, or the card has to be played?

It has to be from your hand and the card has to have cycling, like Above Average Sandwurm.