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[Supast4r]

Huh! Learn something every day.



Every time we have Flashback or a Flashback-esque mechanic it's the same routine: people looking at Flashback costs as if they're normal CMCs (and not zero-card-cost bonus effects you get after already getting a whole spell) and deciding that they're bad, probably. Then we spend six months actually playing with the cards and everyone suddenly remembers that Flashback Is Good Actually.



It's well established that Maro knows less about competitive balance than literally any poster in this thread and we're not exactly winning team constructed GPs in here.



Yeah, the issue with general-purpose land destruction is that even not very good LD hoses unoptimized decks super badly, but actually making it a competitive strategy involves giving people enough redundancy that they can consistently lock other decks out of playing altogether. Land lockdown is a tempo strategy so it's much easier to make good without having to be oppressive.

Again Mark has actually designed cards while no one in here has. It's very easy to see how something could be better in hindsight rather than when you are designing a set. Especially when standard rotation changes while you are developing a set.

 

[bigkrev]

*Entertainment Weekly* is getting spoilers?

Desert appeared in Magic's first expansion, Arabian Nights. The card saw some play in tournaments, but was greatly hampered by the fact that so many of the early decks were completely (or almost completely) creatureless. We actually had Desert in early design files but it proved to be a little too powerful to bring back.

I can think of no more damning a statement about threats vs answers that they think Desert is too strong for the modern Standard

 

[Lucario]

*Entertainment Weekly* is getting spoilers?



I can think of no more damning a statement about threats vs answers that they think Desert is too strong for the modern Standard

Gonna be cautiously optimistic and hope they mean it promotes midrange too much by killing off aggro decks - which it kind of does.

Still, even aggressive threats have two or three toughness now. I'm really not quite sure what they were worried about it killing - seems much worse today than it was during Time Spiral.

 

[red13th]

I can think of no more damning a statement about threats vs answers that they think Desert is too strong for the modern Standard

Yeah that caught me by surprise too.
They have a really warped sense of "too strong for Standard" if Gideon is okay, infinite combos are okay but Desert is too much.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Some cards:


That Serpent looks REALLY good.

Rakdos gonna love that desert in EDH. With a signet the colourless doesn't even matter

 

[ultron87]

White Weenie has enough problems already. Don't make em slog through Desert too.

 

[Maledict]

Again Mark has actually designed cards while no one in here has. It's very easy to see how something could be better in hindsight rather than when you are designing a set. Especially when standard rotation changes while you are developing a set.

I haven't for Magic, but I have for other store sold ccgs, does that count? ;-)

And it's not being mean to Maro. He himself has said many times he is flat out bad at development. He costs things wrong and he doesn't understand how to balance formats - again, his own words. Just listen to his pod casts, Maro plays the game very differently than most people here do.

 

[Santiako]

I don't think Desert is too good for standard, but it would be very warping, making all x/1s basically unplayable since there's no cost in running the land in your deck unless you are playing 3+ colours.

 

[red13th]

I don't think Desert is too good for standard, but it would be very warping, making all x/1s basically unplayable since there's no cost in running the land in your deck unless you are playing 3+ colours.

Yeah, maybe. I'll wait and see post-Amonkhet but two decks already push every other deck out of standard viability anyway. Having such a dreadful format makes almost every discussion moot.

 

[Santiako]

Nissa's gone blue! And the card seems ridiculously strong!

 

[bigkrev]

Ah, Nissa and Urza, the 2 Simic Planeswalkers

 

[Violet_0]

the cat is gonna go and there's a good chance Gideon or the heart are going to be banned as well. I think WotC is becoming more liberal with banning problematic cards in standard instead of "letting the meta sort it out itself"

I see potential for a really cool cycling deck in the near future, though it'd probably be slow against mardu vehicles right now

e: yo that's a money card. And flying lands, oh my

 

[Santiako]

Can't imagine zombies not being a thing now!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

wtf is that nissa. They moved onto an X PW much sooner than expected. PWs with ETBs might not be that far off after all.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

That Nissa looks great.

 

[The Technomancer]

Nissa's gone blue! And the card seems ridiculously strong!

I think I'm in love

 

[Santiako]

At least all the planeswalkers in this set (even if they are just Gatewatch) have interesting designs.

 

[DrArchon]

Wow, that Nissa is jank. Totally random whether or not she impacts the board unless you spend 8 mana or pray she doesn't get hit while you're scrying.

I mean, it's interesting, I'll give it that, but I don't see her being any good.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

that's 3 UG PWs in standard now.

I wonder if they made her blue because of rotation changes and having 3 of her in at the same time.?


Art is ass once again.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Nissa is like the least sensical of the Gatewatch to be multicolored.

 

[ultron87]

Missing on the 0 is a disaster. That's what the scry is for of course, but that also super nerfs the scry since you have to leave both on top if you want to set her up on the next turn.

 

[Toxi]

Ah, Nissa and Urza, the 2 Simic Planeswalkers

If there is any color Urza is not, it is Green.

 

[bigkrev]

BTW, the book "So Do You Wear A Cape" is out today in Paperback, called "Generation Decks"
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1781084904/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Its a pretty good history of Magic, focusing a lot on Peter Adkinsson and the forming of Wizards of the Coast

If there is any color Urza is not, it is Green.

I know

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/158318222308/i-thought-urza-was-uwr-the-black-part-i-can

 

[The Technomancer]

Missing on the 0 is a disaster. That's what the scry is for of course, but that also super nerfs the scry since you have to leave both on top if you want to set her up on the next turn.

I mean you shouldn't be using her Scry to set her up you should be arranging your deck other ways

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If there is any color Urza is not, it is Green.

that's the point.

Nissa is like the least sensical of the Gatewatch to be multicolored.

And yeah. She's the most mono coloured of them.

 

[Santiako]

Nissa is like the least sensical of the Gatewatch to be multicolored.

Yeah, I would've guessed a RW Gideon/Chandra, UW/UB Jace or WB/UB/RB Liliana before this one.

 

[Toxi]

I know

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/158318222308/i-thought-urza-was-uwr-the-black-part-i-can

Argh

 

[Xis]

that's 3 UG PWs in standard now.

There are *four* Nissa's in standard now.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Missing on the 0 is a disaster. That's what the scry is for of course, but that also super nerfs the scry since you have to leave both on top if you want to set her up on the next turn.

The chance of missing on the 0 is super low unless you're playing with the card wrong. You should not be blind flipping. This is a Planeswalker that's hard to evaluate because its in space we've never seen. Even then, a repeatable source of free Scry 2 plus free shit isn't something sniff at as a general proposition.

 

[Ozigizo]

Huh. I'm kind of digging that Nissa design. No protection, but you could totally drop her at X=1 and use the +2.

 

[OnPoint]

From a flavor perspective I hate that Nissa. They have no idea what they're doing with her, do they?

I'm pretty meh on it from a gameplay perspective as well.

 

[Violet_0]

if nothing else she's also an easy-to-activate 10 damage finisher

 

[The Technomancer]

From a flavor perspective I hate that Nissa. They have no idea what they're doing with her, do they?

Probably a similar justification for the blue in Temur, i.e a sort of spiritual heightened consciousness and philosophy of learning. Which...also isn't Nissa, at all, but is I think the correct way to expand UG into being more than just mad scientists.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

1) Nissa being blue is a perfect example of how fucking stupid it is to shoehorn the Jacetice League into all of the planeswalker slots.

2) Nissa's design is super interesting in formats that aren't this particular standard environment. She would have been great in "Topdeck Standard" with cards like Courser of Kruphix, and she's great for cubes.

 

[A Serious Man]

Down on that Nissa. She's flexible though, so who knows.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

There are *four* Nissa's in standard now.

that's the reason they made her mutlicolour probably but it's just weird how out of whack the PWs are in multiple colours.
Not counting PW deck pack ins. There's 1 GW, 1GR, 2GU, 1RW, 1UW, 1UB, 1UR, 1WB and 1GWU. Making for 6Us, 5Gs, 3Rs, 3Ws and only 2Bs

 

[Metroidvania]

Why on Earth did Nissa go blue?

I'm assuming there's some story reason she's taking things from (either Jace, or being affected by the plane in a not dissimilar way to Gideon on some level), but it feels really, really odd for the Gatewatch members to start leaving their mono-colored status.

She is pretty (potentially) powerful though, anything with putting stuff in 'for free' generally is, and blue/green gives you access to counterspells and decent body protection if need be while you set up.

 

[The Technomancer]

I can see green/white Nissa and I can see green/red Nissa frankly, but I have no idea what UG Nissa as a character could possibly look like

 

[DrArchon]

1) Nissa being blue is a perfect example of how fucking stupid it is to shoehorn the Jacetice League into all of the planeswalker slots.

2) Nissa's design is super interesting in formats that aren't this particular standard environment. She would have been great in "Topdeck Standard" with cards like Courser of Kruphix, and she's great for cubes.

Well we are getting this guy:

He's not exactly on the same power level as courser, but I'd be happy to play both of them together.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Wow, that Nissa is jank. Totally random whether or not she impacts the board unless you spend 8 mana or pray she doesn't get hit while you're scrying.

I mean, it's interesting, I'll give it that, but I don't see her being any good.

It costs 3 mana as a baseline.

Why on Earth did Nissa go blue?

I'm assuming there's some story reason she's taking things from (either Jace, or being affected by the plane in a not dissimilar way to Gideon on some level), but it feels really, really odd for the Gatewatch members to start leaving their mono-colored status.

She is pretty (potentially) powerful though, anything with putting stuff in 'for free' generally is, and blue/green gives you access to counterspells and decent body protection if need be while you set up.

Girls love Jace
Guys want to be Jace

that's the reason they made her mutlicolour probably but it's just weird how out of whack the PWs are in multiple colours.
Not counting PW deck pack ins. There's 1 GW, 1GR, 2GU, 1RW, 1UW, 1UB, 1UR, 1WB and 1GWU. Making for 6Us, 5Gs, 3Rs, 3Ws and only 2Bs

They can just make a new character. Or import Kiora. I think the big idea was to go out of their way to make sure she isn't BG anymore, since they have 2 other walkers doing that job.

 

[Santiako]

Rhonas the Indomitable 2G
Legendary Creature - God
Deathtouch, indestructable
Can't attack or block unless you control another creature with 4 or more power.
2G: Another target creature gets +2+0 and trample until the end of turn.
5/5

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It costs 3 mana as a baseline.

Dies to shock

Rhonas the Indomitable 2G
Legendary Creature - God
Deathtouch, indestructable
Can't attack or block unless you control another creature with 4 or more power.
2G: Another target creature gets +2+0 and trample until the end of turn.
5/5

Heart of Kiran alone enables it lol.

 

[Supast4r]

1) Nissa being blue is a perfect example of how fucking stupid it is to shoehorn the Jacetice League into all of the planeswalker slots.

2) Nissa's design is super interesting in formats that aren't this particular standard environment. She would have been great in "Topdeck Standard" with cards like Courser of Kruphix, and she's great for cubes.

Nissa works VERY WELL with Visier of the Menagerie so it already has something that works well with it. Nissa looks crazy good in standard since she: fits into any grindy deck, can protect herself depending on how much mana you want to invest, she hits land drops for control, hits small creatures for midrange, etc. Such a good swiss army knife type card. I don't know why this is a Nissa though. She could have been a completely new planeswalker with a different ult and no one would have noticed.

 

[The Technomancer]

Rhonas the Indomitable 2G
Legendary Creature - God
Deathtouch, indestructable
Can't attack or block unless you control another creature with 4 or more power.
2G: Another target creature gets +2+0 and trample until the end of turn.
5/5

Love the body, love the active, deathtouch is ehhhh

 

[traveler]

edit: beaten

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They can just make a new character. Or import Kiora. I think the big idea was to go out of their way to make sure she isn't BG anymore, since they have 2 other walkers doing that job.

They could if they didn't have to jam the Jacetice league into very set.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Dies to shock

Heart of Kiran alone enables it lol.

...It does not ever die to Shock. Unless you're dumb enough to play it on 1 or 2 Loyalty counters and then blind flip.

 

[Santiako]

Love the body, love the active, deathtouch is ehhhh

Deathtouch in big bodies always seems pointless.

 

[Firemind]

When will we see Jace in red?

 

[The Technomancer]

They could if they didn't have to jam the Jacetice league into very set.

Mark's already said they're pulling back on this going forward, Amonkhet was too far along before they got the feedback that it was too much