Support NeoGAF

[Crocodile]

If you have created an environment where everything is Thragtusk, you have screwed up.

Sounds like your average Rare Cube - i.e GREAT! (I assume you mean "Thragtusk" as a stand in to represent power level rather than midrange being the dominate strategy).

Spoiler

Before you get upset, yes I'm aware that Standard being at a Rare Cube power level/complexity would be very bad

 

[The Technomancer]

I mean based on what we've seen so far Amonkhet looks like a lower power utility set. That's already at least a better idea than it being yet another high power synergy set, its unlikely that this specific release is going to fuck up standard in any new or exciting ways that aren't just giving fuel to existing decks.

The real question is: can this set fix Standard, or is it just waiting until BFZ rotates out?

 

[HK-47]

Not with sorcery speed downfall and a 3 mana Gideon. It's op threats and lackluster answers. Or in some cases no answers (little late with the gy hate there wotc)

 

[Infinite Stars]

Looking on Gatherer there are actually a very awkward number of white and green minotaurs that can't be in a Naheb deck. Like, you can't put Boros Reckoner in such a deck at all.



Mana Leak can be a miserable card, so I can see why they avoid printing it.

Mana Leak can be miserable, but I'd easily have every card I ever cast be countered by a Blue Mage then have my Opponent get to bash me with Gideon/Kiran for 9 on turn 5

But it did cause issues last time. Delver was a super hated deck and that plus Snapcaster was probably a bit too good.

Delver/Snapcaster/Geist were the issues there though, not Mana Leak. Delver is a card that has created entire Legacy Strategies, there's no reason to look at that format and go "It's the card that's been fine in Standard before that's to blame" when Delver was running around.

I think the biggest problem Development has here is that they probably really do have the sword of Damocles over their heads, and they have no choice but to bet it all that Amonkhet will somehow fix it. Given what we know about the dev cycle for the set, this doesn't bode well.

Is there a version of the Whiteboard Meme for Standard right now? Like,

"This will Save Standard!"
Collected Company Rotating?
More Inventions?
Kaladesh releasing?
Standard Showdown?
Emergency Bannings of 3 Cards you can get in Standard Showdown packs?
Aether Revolt Releasing?
Pushing Temur Tower as a third deck in a two deck meta?
Emergency Bannings of 3 more cards?
Amonkhet Releasing?

I mean, it's kind of getting absurd right now.

 

[Glix]

This set should be out already!!!!

I could draft on MTGO tonight and claim its Passover related!

Edit - Bah on Pull From Tomorrow! Should let you mill dudes out like Stroke.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

See? There's an upshot for you: at least they're printing actual "Minotaur" cards instead of deciding they need a new "Tauros" tribal or something.

(Seriously, though, fuck Naga.)

Yeah fuck Naga and fuck whoever thought Minotaur was appropriate for Zedruu

I mean based on what we've seen so far Amonkhet looks like a lower power utility set. That's already at least a better idea than it being yet another high power synergy set, its unlikely that this specific release is going to fuck up standard in any new or exciting ways that aren't just giving fuel to existing decks.

The real question is: can this set fix Standard, or is it just waiting until BFZ rotates out?

Banning Gideon alone wouldn't fix standard and that's basically what BFZ rotating does.

 

[Santiako]

This looks decent enough.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

lol the uncommon is the best one yet.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

That card looks obnoxious as fuck to play against. Fuck your turn, and fuck your next turn too.

 

[aidan]

This looks decent enough.

This is clever. Forces your opponent to concede two turns worth of mana to play a threat. It's like the reverse of Hearthstone's overload mechanic.

 

[Infinite Stars]

I mean based on what we've seen so far Amonkhet looks like a lower power utility set. That's already at least a better idea than it being yet another high power synergy set, its unlikely that this specific release is going to fuck up standard in any new or exciting ways that aren't just giving fuel to existing decks.

The real question is: can this set fix Standard, or is it just waiting until BFZ rotates out?

Nothing can fix Standard until we get better Answers. It actively hurts you to interact with your opponents because all the answers are comically bad compared to the threats.

Like, Flip the famous bolt test on it's head. Not a question of "Can this survive Bolt", but "Can this kill Gideon/Vehicles/Other threats at a positive trade?" to which the answer is "Hell No"

 

[Rafy]

This looks decent enough.

Is it weird that I like this one more than the rare Aftermath cards we have seen so far? If you manage to pull this off on turn 3, and Aftermath it at 4 it's quite a blow to the enemy's available mana

 

[ThLunarian]

This looks decent enough.

This thing looks great. It's a Counterspell that flashes back as a Time Walk.

 

[Matsukaze]

Is it weird that I like this one more than the rare Aftermath cards we have seen so far? If you manage to pull this off on turn 3, and Aftermath it at 4 it's quite a blow to the enemy's available mana

I'm in the exact same boat.

Much more interested in this one.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Glad to see that they're pushing red land freezing a bit more. I thought we'd just get "freeze one land" as a rider for a bit longer.

 

[kirblar]

Nothing can fix Standard until we get better Answers. It actively hurts you to interact with your opponents because all the answers are comically bad compared to the threats.

Like, Flip the famous bolt test on it's head. Not a question of "Can this survive Bolt", but "Can this kill Gideon/Vehicles/Other threats at a positive trade?" to which the answer is "Hell No"

If the only 1 for 1 answers are counters youve screwed up ur threats.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'm not even sure you can place the blame for standard on bad answers, they are honestly not that bad. It's just that nothing can compete with the mardu curve and I'm not sure if they printed answers that were able to compete, it would be good for the rest of standard.

Is it weird that I like this one more than the rare Aftermath cards we have seen so far? If you manage to pull this off on turn 3, and Aftermath it at 4 it's quite a blow to the enemy's available mana

no. It's both the conceptually most interesting, is fairly costed and probably most constructed playable.

 

[OnPoint]

Ironic reveal given the discussion in here today.

This card seems good.

 

[DrArchon]

God, playing against multiples of these in limited is going to be a nightmare. Hell, just having someone bust out one of these on turn 3/4 is gonna make my blood boil. I'm sure of it.

 

[Tunoku]

Today has been a good day for spoilers. That card is super sweet.

 

[Infinite Stars]

If the only 1 for 1 answers are counters youve screwed up ur threats.

I'm not saying they Counters are the only 1 for 1 Answers, but all "Destroy" effects are Sorcery Speed can't hit 90% of the threats that matter. Wraths can't do shit all against Vehicles/Gideon, Ruinous Path is too slow, etc. The cards that do kill those threats still are kind of shit because they can't hit Gideon because "Herp De Derp I'm indestructible as a creature"

 

[kirblar]

I'm not saying they Counters are the only 1 for 1 Answers, but all "Destroy" effects are Sorcery Speed can't hit 90% of the threats that matter. Wraths can't do shit all against Vehicles/Gideon, Ruinous Path is too slow, etc. The cards that do kill those threats still are kind of shit because they can't hit Gideon because "Herp De Derp I'm indestructible as a creature"

This is why the issue is the threats.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Something's been bothering me for awhile, does anyone actually care for text coverage of GPs?
Apparently Cuneo won a GP.

 

[Hero]

Miscalculation is too good for standard. Jeez, you guys.

 

[Firemind]

This looks decent enough.

Couldn't be a Stone Rain huh? The word rubble doesn't even signify locking lands!

 

[kirblar]

Couldn't be a Stone Rain huh? The word rubble doesn't even signify locking lands!

In context this is far better than Stone Rain.

 

[Firemind]

This is why the issue is the threats.

But Gideon is always an indestructible big dude. Are you saying they should kill off Gideon in the story?

 

[Ashodin]

But Gideon is always an indestructible big dude. Are you saying they should kill off Gideon in the story?

I mean

 

[Supast4r]

Mana Leak is too good because in a Tempo shell it's Counterspell. If you're at a point where it's not Counterspell, you've probably already lost.

Miscalculation is nearly as good as Mana Leak in a Tempo shell before you take into account the cycling.

And in a Control shell, it's generally better! Late in the game the cycling massively benefits control decks who have tons of mana to spare.

"Nearly strictly better Mana Leak" is not a card you want to put into Standard when Mana Leak has already proven to be a nightmare.

The argument really shouldn't have to be made at this point.

If you think Mana Leak is an acceptable card for Standard, your opinion is just wrong.

Yes, there aren't enough Answer cards. But printing Answer cards and less powerful Chimeric Idols doesn't mean you have to start printing OP answer cards.

"Your opinion is just wrong." Funny because Maro himself believes that counterspell itself can come back to standard if the setting is right. The same can be said for mana leak. I will argue that leak was a nightmare because the best tempo creature in the history of magic (Delver of Secrets) was printed along side of it as well as the most busted cantrips in the history of magic. (ponder and preordain) We haven't seen leak in standard without a crazy cantrip/crazy tempo card. Given the ample police cards in the same set, (can't be countered creatures, white weenie tax creatures, glowrider effects, cavern of souls/boseju style lands) it could be reprinted.

 

[Firemind]

In context this is far better than Stone Rain.

It doesn't even tap the lands so no.

 

[Supast4r]

Couldn't be a Stone Rain huh? The word rubble doesn't even signify locking lands!

Wizards hates land destruction but gives us standard sets with busted mana bases where 4 color decks can thrive without being punished or they give us ramp sets like battle for zendikar. Really dumb that stone rain is magically "too good" after being around since the beginning of magic. I feel the same way about 1 drop mana dorks, searing spear burn cards and 4 costed sweepers. All it does is just promote midrange the gathering.

 

[kirblar]

"Your opinion is just wrong." Funny because Maro himself believes that counterspell itself can come back to standard if the setting is right. The same can be said for mana leak. I will argue that leak was a nightmare because the best tempo creature in the history of magic (Delver of Secrets) was printed along side of it as well as the most busted cantrips in the history of magic. (ponder and preordain) We haven't seen leak in standard without a crazy cantrip/crazy tempo card. Given the ample police cards in the same set, (can't be countered creatures, white weenie tax creatures, glowrider effects, cavern of souls/boseju style lands) it could be reprinted.

MaRo's not a developer and you shouldn't listen to him on that stuff.

We literally just had a U/W tempo deck running all over Standard pre-bans! Control decks aren't the issue, Tempo ones are, and they're right to be very wary of empowering them. Both the U/W rare and U/R uncommon aftermath cards are tempo-based, and they're both excellent, but neither are OPOP like Mana Leak.

 

[Supast4r]

MaRo's not a developer and you shouldn't listen to him on that stuff.

We literally just had a U/W tempo deck running all over Standard pre-bans! Control decks aren't the issue, Tempo ones are, and they're right to be very wary of empowering them. Both the U/W rare and U/R uncommon aftermath cards are tempo-based, and they're both excellent, but neither are OPOP like Mana Leak.

And that was because of super powerful creatures. Calling the UW deck a tempo deck is super generous when it's only played two tempo cards: a man-o-war creature and a counterspell/o-ring with legs. The rest of the deck played like a midrange deck with gideons/avacyn/copter. A force spike for two is just as excellent as the 3 drop mana leak that gets cheaper with artifacts. That card saw play for a few weeks until people realized that it's bad. I don't see how any of the counterspells help against mardu vechiles which is still regarded as the best deck in standard by a country mile. Rosewater has designed tons of cards and has worked in magic for over 15 years, so I believe that he is more reputable than anyone in this thread. Have we even seen mana leak without Delver of secrets/busted cantrip in the modern era of magic?

 

[Violet_0]

Wizards hates land destruction but gives us standard sets with busted mana bases where 4 color decks can thrive without being punished or they give us ramp sets like battle for zendikar. Really dumb that stone rain is magically "too good" after being around since the beginning of magic. I feel the same way about 1 drop mana dorks, searing spear burn cards and 4 costed sweepers. All it does is just promote midrange the gathering.

did they say "too good"? I'd think the actual reason why they don't want to make land destruction cards anymore is because they're just too frustrating for many players. It's the same with good counterspells

 

[SigmasonicX]

The same thought occurs to me whenever a topic like this comes up: if you think the card isn't going to be that good in Standard, why do you care about it coming back?

 

[Crocodile]

The same thought occurs to me whenever a topic like this comes up: if you think the card isn't going to be that good in Standard, why do you care about it coming back?

-Interested in seeing and experiencing the card as it interacts with a new set of cards in a new setting from before
-New frame + new art is great for collecting (and great for Cube)
-Introduces the card into Modern

 

[Firemind]

did they say "too good"? I'd think the actual reason why they don't want to make land destruction cards anymore is because they're just too frustrating for many players. It's the same with good counterspells

That's like banning players blocking other players from entering a country in a game of Risk. Or forbidding players to attack workers in StarCraft.

 

[Poodlestrike]

That's like banning players blocking other players from entering a country in a game of Risk. Or forbidding players to attack workers in StarCraft.

And if there were so few SC players that alienating the super-casual faction would put the game in serious jeopardy, they might consider such a rule

Also: Total newbie to this "serious Magic" stuff, but for Egyptian Mythology I'm in like Flynn. Y'all are proving very educational so far.

 

[SigmasonicX]

And if there were so few SC players that alienating the super-casual faction would put the game in serious jeopardy, they might consider such a rule

Also: Total newbie to this "serious Magic" stuff, but for Egyptian Mythology I'm in like Flynn. Y'all are proving very educational so far.

To be clear, despite our doomsaying about Standard, Magic isn't in that much danger of losing all its audience, and the land destruction weakening happened about 10 years ago.

In any case, my understanding about land destruction is that it was only ever good in an all-in deck that focused just on that. Cards like Stone Rain were rarely including in a deck that otherwise did different things. Land freezing seems like it's much easier to incidentally include on a spell, and thus can more easily be the part of a deck that doesn't go all-in on it.

 

[Santiako]

Very solid common. One of those cards you'll always play in your draft and sealed decks.

 

[Poodlestrike]

To be clear, despite our doomsaying about Standard, Magic isn't in that much danger of losing all its audience, and the land destruction weakening happened about 10 years ago.

In any case, my understanding about land destruction is that it was only ever good in an all-in deck that focused just on that. Cards like Stone Rain were rarely including in a deck that otherwise did different things. Land freezing seems like it's much easier to incidentally include on a spell, and thus can more easily be the part of a deck that doesn't go all-in on it.

See, my experience is entirely in a casual format (aside from a few guys in highschool nobody liked), and land destruction worked there as an extreme annoyance. Very sloppy builds, so losing a land to a Stone Rain or somesuch could really throw you off your game. I suspect it's similar for a lot of other casual players, so I could see it being really annoying. I can only imagine how obnoxious it'd be to play against an all-in deck.

 

[Infinite Stars]

I'm mainly for Miscalculation/Other cards being put in Standard for Modern's sake, because there's a shortlist of cards from Non-Standard sets that are probably good/great cards for Modern. Like, Baleful Strix, Dismiss, Sanctum Prelate, etc, all of which are locked out of Modern because they'd need to pass through Standard.

Very solid common. One of those cards you'll always play in your draft and sealed decks.

That's really strong for a Common, actually. 3 Power/Toughness for 2 Mana is strong. It's also kind of good with Eldritch Evolution with the Death effect. Going this, Evo, get Rallier, buy back this? Seems decent as a brew idea

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

See, my experience is entirely in a casual format (aside from a few guys in highschool nobody liked), and land destruction worked there as an extreme annoyance. Very sloppy builds, so losing a land to a Stone Rain or somesuch could really throw you off your game. I suspect it's similar for a lot of other casual players, so I could see it being really annoying. I can only imagine how obnoxious it'd be to play against an all-in deck.

It's annoying as fuck. Especially if you miss a land drop.

 

[HK-47]

See, my experience is entirely in a casual format (aside from a few guys in highschool nobody liked), and land destruction worked there as an extreme annoyance. Very sloppy builds, so losing a land to a Stone Rain or somesuch could really throw you off your game. I suspect it's similar for a lot of other casual players, so I could see it being really annoying. I can only imagine how obnoxious it'd be to play against an all-in deck.

No more than any other deck that keeps you from doing things. And less than some decks like lantern.

 

[Infinite Stars]

No more than any other deck that keeps you from doing things. And less than some decks like lantern.

To be fair to lantern, their lockout is a Wincon, as opposed to Ponza's Wincon being a concession.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

It's annoying as fuck. Especially if you miss a land drop.

I mostly hate when people have "incidental" land destruction. I have a friend who will 100% play 1-4 Stone Rain in any deck where he has Red. Even if it has no basis around what he's trying to do.

If the entire deck is based on it, or is counting on it, I can respect that.

I have played with and against dedicated LD decks and it's an interesting race sometimes, as you trade cards for cards and the non-LD player keeps drawing lands. I appreciate that it's not for everyone, though.

 

[Poodlestrike]

No more than any other deck that keeps you from doing things. And less than some decks like lantern.

Dunno what that is

But it feels different, even though I know it's not. Getting your lands consistently blown up is grating because not only can you not do the cool thing you've been building to for x turns, you can't do any of the other stuff in your hand because you don't have the mana! Counterspells produce a similar but lesser effect.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Dunno what that is

But it feels different, even though I know it's not. Getting your lands consistently blown up is grating because not only can you not do the cool thing you've been building to for x turns, you can't do any of the other stuff in your hand because you don't have the mana! Counterspells produce a similar but lesser effect.

Lantern Control is a Modern Deck that has been jokingly called "The worst cards in the best deck". There's no big splashy bombs ie Goyf/Creatures, instead the deck aims to lock it's Opponents out of the game by control their drawstep using Lantern of Insight/Codex Shredder/etc. Furthermore, it runs Maindeck Pithing Needles and Ensnaring Bridge to prevent creatures from swinging in/abilities that would interrupt their gameplan. The deck wins by killing their Opponent out over a bunch of turns.

It's a love or hate deck, there's no in between.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Lantern Control is a Modern Deck that has been jokingly called "The worst cards in the best deck". There's no big splashy bombs ie Goyf/Creatures, instead the deck aims to lock it's Opponents out of the game by control their drawstep using Lantern of Insight/Codex Shredder/etc. Furthermore, it runs Maindeck Pithing Needles and Ensnaring Bridge to prevent creatures from swinging in/abilities that would interrupt their gameplan. The deck wins by killing their Opponent out over a bunch of turns.

It's a love or hate deck, there's no in between.

Wow that sounds obnoxious.

I actually had something vaguely similar, though I only had two cards. Can't remember the names anymore sadly. One artifact that let you control your opponents' next turn (at the cost of sacrificing the artifact and some mana), one white creature with a 5 color cost that let me bring any artifact back from my graveyard. Only actually combo'd it once, but it was pretty hilarious watching him stew.

 

[GoutPatrol]

Lantern Control is a Modern Deck that has been jokingly called "The worst cards in the best deck". There's no big splashy bombs ie Goyf/Creatures, instead the deck aims to lock it's Opponents out of the game by control their drawstep using Lantern of Insight/Codex Shredder/etc. Furthermore, it runs Maindeck Pithing Needles and Ensnaring Bridge to prevent creatures from swinging in/abilities that would interrupt their gameplan. The deck wins by killing their Opponent out over a bunch of turns.

It's a love or hate deck, there's no in between.

I love the idea of the deck working, I just don't like playing against it that often. Just like with any Modern deck, if you have a SB plan and you can predict the meta, everything can be beaten.

This is coming from a turn who just made Mono-U Turns.