Delve is honestly a fine mechanic when the delve cards are degenerate. For example there is nothing wrong with the delve creatures, murderous cut, nor temporal trespass. I would like to see delve revisited again.
Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?
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divisionbyzorro
Member
And you have to let them print fun cards in Standard even if they have the potential to fuck up other formats. Treasure Cruise, for example. I'm really glad that card exists, despite what it did to Modern/Legacy/Vintage for a while there.
EDIT: You could definitely call Treasure Cruise a "mistake," but once everything settled down I think it's a great card to have access to for cubes, EDH, etc.
EDIT: You could definitely call Treasure Cruise a "mistake," but once everything settled down I think it's a great card to have access to for cubes, EDH, etc.
SigmasonicX
Member
The logic is that if they knew a card needed to be banned, they'd just ban it. Also, IIRC, they tried out having a watch list, but it didn't actually lower the number of user complaints when bans actually happened, and I imagine it caused confusion when cards on the list didn't get banned.
But they're really one step away from there being an official watchlist as it is. The banlist updates we get, regardless of whether there's a banning or not, is already discussing cards in question. Why not just compile them on an easy to read list while still providing reasons why for each selection? That way, no one can act surprised when a deck like Miracles is banned out of the format by losing one card, parking lot signs be damned. As for confusion about them maybe not getting banned after being on the watch list, you owe it to readers to update each card included for each update. So if a card is still on the watch list but not yet a violation, say that. If a card is no longer a problem, say you're removing it from the list. It's really not that hard to communicate. They just need to do it.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I feel like a watchlist makes a lot more sense for something like Modern or Legacy than it does Standard.
You aren't wrong, but I feel like if you're going to do it, you should do it for all officially supported formats.
I'm open to the idea of getting a watchlist. At the very least it'd help prevent FNM players from buying into decks a week before bans.
Some thoughts:
-Things like Simian Spirit Guide would probably end up sitting on the list for years at a time, making the watch list pointless for obviously degenerate cards. Combined with R&D's bizarre timing, it might not actually help stifle the outrage when justified bans like Top happen.
-Every new addition would be treated like a ban announcement financially, making it a "new ban list" in terms of people getting pissed off.
-Knowing WoTC, if there's any outrage whatsoever behind putting cards on the list, they're gonna postpone putting cards on it until it's too late.... making it have all the problems of a real ban list, but without actually getting rid of degenerate cards.
If done right, I like the idea. I have my doubts it would be.
Some thoughts:
-Things like Simian Spirit Guide would probably end up sitting on the list for years at a time, making the watch list pointless for obviously degenerate cards. Combined with R&D's bizarre timing, it might not actually help stifle the outrage when justified bans like Top happen.
-Every new addition would be treated like a ban announcement financially, making it a "new ban list" in terms of people getting pissed off.
-Knowing WoTC, if there's any outrage whatsoever behind putting cards on the list, they're gonna postpone putting cards on it until it's too late.... making it have all the problems of a real ban list, but without actually getting rid of degenerate cards.
If done right, I like the idea. I have my doubts it would be.
Imperfected
Member
Cost reduction and free stuff mechanics pretty much always break things, but there's an entire Magic Player Archetype who basically only play the game for those broken interactions, so you have to knowingly slip them in while trying to ameliorate the damage they can do so they're just borderline-playable instead of being dominating.
It's one of the dumbest design tightropes I've ever seen someone walk. I love it.
It's one of the dumbest design tightropes I've ever seen someone walk. I love it.
Magic Story - THE HAND THAT MOVES
From what I read on reddit it's about Nissa becoming UG from passing the Trial of Knowledge.
From what I read on reddit it's about Nissa becoming UG from passing the Trial of Knowledge.
It really is beautiful. I love how every major card game seems to be walking the same tightrope, too.
Started playing ascension after PAX, and every time the "acquire every card of X type for free" champion got flipped up early, whoever got it first won by a landslide.
There's also this:
Delve is fine as a mechanic put they always seem to paste those mechanics on the wrong cards. If you take a look at the banlist for Modern at least 70% has something to do with cost reduction, free spells or mana boost.
There are plenty of cards that gets broken because of the 40 life limit in EDH.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
Yep. Just look at the change in design between Serra Ascendant and Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim. Thank God they figured out stuff like the former was a big problem for EDH and stopped doing it. I'd bet money they never make another card that has an ability that turns on when you have 30 or more life ever again.
On the topic of cost reduction abilities, I'm impressed they seemed to get Improvise just right. I don't think any of those have broken a format like other ones have. Probably because it's literally just a worse Affinity, but still. Good on them for playing it safe with that one.
I agree that it would be a problem if cards just sat on a "watch list" for extended periods of time, because then it's meaningless. As far as I recall the rules committee in EDH usually comments on cards on the watch list during banning and restriction announcements, which is helpful to keep people informed on any potential movement on those cards.
As someone already mentioned: It does already feel like they pretty close to actually having a watch list. Every update has mentions of the trouble cards and what they think about them (for Standard anyway...), which is the kind of information I think I am looking for, and that other people want. Just stay open with up to date information on cards that are becoming issues, and a list seems like a decent way to do that.
Maybe what it comes down to is that a watch list just becomes another thing for fans to get mad about...so why do it.
I don't know. It was just something I was thinking about because of how heated it got in here about the bans over the past couple of days.
I skipped Kaladesh block so I wouldn't know. But I can certainly see that being a thing with the number of artifacts and the number of ways to make artifact tokens.
I'm just impressed it never broke standard, especially with Investigate and cards like Tireless Tracker being a thing. Maybe the cards they printed weren't worth playing over the already broken stuff. Why both setting up to Improvise out a big creature when Vehicles are a thing?
Imperfected
Member
It's hard to say if Improvise is "just right" or not due to the format being such a mess. Ideally, you would want decks like Aetherflux Reservoir Storm or similar shenanigans to be borderline-playable, which they are not, but it's unclear if that's because the mechanics are too mild or simply because the marquee decks of the format are too good.
I think it probably is, though. I think there's probably some dumb Improvise tech that's right on that Tier 2 Johnny level that just never got a chance to be because the Spikes are wilding out with Mardu Gideons and Copycats.
There's just not a big enough payoff for constructed. The three big ones (Maverick Thopterist, Herald of Anguish and Battle at the Bridge) are good but not enough to warrant a full deck built around them.
Now on draft, when you were dropping turn 3 Bastion Inventor, Enraged Giant and Sweatworks Brawler it was hard to lose.
Imperfected
Member
The card to look at for Improvise shenanigans would probably be Inspiring Statuary. The question is, would decks running Inspiring Statuary have a shot at being Tier 2 decks if Standard wasn't fucked six ways to Sunday right now?
Yeah, going over the cards on Gatherer and it looks like the overall power of most of the Improvise cards is a lot lower than you'd expect from a higher power block like Kaladesh. I mean, Whir of Invention looks like a perfect candidate for a busted card, but they gave it that triple U mana cost to make sure it wouldn't break anything.
In that regard I'll applaud WotC for playing it safe. I'd rather have a mechanic be underutilized than overpowered (shame about the rest of Standard though).
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You can in fact just win straight out with Herald of Anguish.
Imperfected
Member
Herald of Anguish isn't really a Johnny type of card, though. It's just a Timmy card that's more playable than average.
Magic Story Summary - The Hand That Moves by Ken Troophttp://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/hand-moves-2017-04-26
- Nissa senses beauty and something sinister beneath every time she looks at Amonkhet. She seeks answers from Kefnet and heads to a Kefnet temple.
- Nissa heads inside and tussles mentally with the trial of knowledge organizer. She recognizes mind magic having been near Jace a lot. The organizer gets slammed into a wall and she goes into the trial.
- Nissa has a series of unending nightmares. She quickly realizes they're controlled by her instinct and calms herself to break free.
- Doing so gives her visions of various things to come, and things that have already happened.
- She sees the eight gods become corrupted, three potentially dying or being removed from the world.
- She sees Bolas and his schemes enveloping not just Amonkhet but other worlds as well, including Dominaria.
- She sees what she interprets as Emrakul, but is just an angelic representation of her mental guard, guide her to become more than just a pawn in life.
- She sees among other things the Gatewatch losing, Bolas arriving, giant blue golems made of lazotep (the mineral that mummies are mining up) attacking Amonkhet, Amonkhet being destroyed in a planar collapse.
- Kefnet arrives and tries to snuff out Nissa for acquiring knowledge beyond what the trial normally gives out.
- Nissa almost bites it but realizes the gods are tied to and made of Leylines, so she weaves in a quick spell to tell Kefnet to leave her alone. She notes this is how Bolas must've corrupted the gods.
- Kefnet leaves her be, she passes the trial. She realizes that later her spell woven into Kefnet might be of use.
Simply Sarah
Member
Err, I'm not quite sure either of you appreciate just how broken Ad Naus is. Serra Ascendant is an admittedly icky card in EDH but Ayli doesn't do anything without life gain. Ad Naus in a reasonably tuned deck is a 5 CMC instant that basically reads "You win the game". In this sense it is much more like the banned Yawgmoth's Bargain, Gifts Ungiven, and Griselbrand. Sure, the Rules Committee is somewhat incoherent about what kind of card deserves a ban and I outright run Ad Naus but that doesn't mean it's not perhaps the single most powerful EDH card.
GregLombardi
Member
I'm actually legit surprised at the strategies available in Amonkhet, and pleasantly so:
This deck went 3-0, very much off of the back of some luck and the beetles being the best control cards ever.
This deck went 3-0, very much off of the back of some luck and the beetles being the best control cards ever.
Simply Sarah
Member
I'm actually legit surprised at the strategies available in Amonkhet, and pleasantly so:
This deck went 3-0, very much off of the back of some luck and the beetles being the best control cards ever.
I don't love the Shadowstorm Vizier in that deck since there's very little cycling but I suppose a 2 mana 1/3 flyer has its place depending on what other options you had. Beyond that the deck looks like a fairly reasonable control setup.
Imperfected
Member
Yeah, I'm not as found of that guy as the 4/2 that becomes indestructible on cycling. Even without actual cycling cards you can do a pretty scary pump-fake with the 4/2, but a 1/3 that only gets +1/+1 per cycle is a lot harder to bluff with.
GregLombardi
Member
Yeah Vizier mostly sucked and was there as a way to stay alive, a role he / she played in a key way in some games. But yeah, totally replaceable and mostly useless, good point.
Simply Sarah
Member
It's a disgusting card in Limited, especially since board stalls seem fairly common. Being able to often effectively draw 1-2 extra cards a turn makes you hard to beat.
Vehicles got all the hate and Saheeli got all the toys so I'm not surprised.
I've seen a bunch of articles that just boil down to "Look at all these neat cards that 4c Saheeli gets to use!" WotC really screwed the pooch by not banning cat when they could. Now they're going to ruin one of their biggest attempts to market their new set.
Infinite Stars
Member
But "Temur Tower"!
I'd be more sympathetic to Wizards if they hadn't missed 3 Ban periods to hit the deck because "we need more data". No, you dumb asses, you didn't even expect this, no data is going to come that will fix it.
They'll do business as usual and highlight the Amonkhet cards on streams as they come up
"Oh and there's one of Amonkhet's newest cards, Manglehorn! Oh it just got shocked and sent to the graveyard. Let's take a look at what Manglehorn was supposed to do. *explain card*"
"Ah, there's some of Amonkhet's newest cycling lands!"
"Glorybringer! This Saheeli Rai Copycat deck has it all."
etc
GregLombardi
Member
So is anyone playing the new gideon as an addition to the deck? Or is it just glorybringer that has been added?
Imperfected
Member
Don't worry, right before BfZ cycles out of Standard they'll ban the new Gideon. It's called the Reflector Mage strategy.
GregLombardi
Member
Wait, so copycat isn't being played? I'm a little confused. I do magic online a lot but I don't know how to check what's being played in Standard (which I assume just means playing standard).
No, both UR Control and Copycat are positioning against Mardu Vehicles.
SigmasonicX
Member
So a new tier 1 deck has appeared already! #wizardsredeemed
To be clear, it's basically Saheeli Rai without Saheeli Rai. And two other colors. It's just everything that can counter Mardu Vehicles. Negates, Magma Spray et al. It does decently well against 4C Saheeli, but it still just ends up losing to combo.
divisionbyzorro
Member
This is why you don't want these kinds of combos in standard.
- Build a Temur Monsters deck that's really sweet.
- Realize that Saheeli Rai is actually a great card in the deck with fun synergies.
- Realize that a white splash is basically free and you get to play Felidar Guardian.
- Suddenly you're playing 4C Copycat.
I think describing it as UR Tower without Tower is more accurate than Saheeli Rai without Saheeli Rai.
Well yeah.
This is the decklist:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/626189#online
The split Mana Leak is bad anyway, I like Commit though. Deals with a resolved Gideon, which is key. I love the lack of Anticipate as well, I hate that card.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/626189#online
The split Mana Leak is bad anyway, I like Commit though. Deals with a resolved Gideon, which is key. I love the lack of Anticipate as well, I hate that card.
It would be easier for you guys to discuss with these at hand
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