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[Angry Grimace]

That card is so underpowered compared to the busted crap blue can already do in EDH.

Hence why a conversation about a "fair" game of EDH is kind of pointless. But its still such a blatant color pie violation that it pisses me off.

 

[OnPoint]

Hence why a conversation about a "fair" game of EDH is kind of pointless. But its still such a blatant color pie violation that it pisses me off.

Right. Seems that blue is the only color that gets the violations regularly, too.

 

[WanderingWind]

Right. Seems that blue is the only color that gets the violations regularly, too.

That's the kind of thing that annoys me, too. I feel as if a mono blue aggro deck should never be possible in standard, much less pushed. Exceptions to the rules happen for a reason, but blue definitely takes from everybody else's pie to make itself better.

Geist of St. Traft and Delver still annoy me. (I still play them in Modern because I like to win, but you know).

 

[The Technomancer]

Blue is...kind of in a weird position. It feels like the majority of its "characteristic abilities" very easily break the game (to the point that they're 20 years in and they still can't entirely develop blue in a predictable manner). But if you push blue in other areas that are less characteristic but also less likely to be busted, then you're bleeding it and messing with color identity.

 

[Firemind]

That card is so underpowered compared to the busted crap blue can already do in EDH.

Yeah, I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. Giving your opponent the option to take the damage is so bad for blue decks. It doesn't even work well with some of the more aggressive blue generals like Kira.

 

[OnPoint]

Blue is...kind of in a weird position. It feels like the majority of its "characteristic abilities" very easily break the game (to the point that they're 20 years in and they still can't entirely develop blue in a predictable manner). But if you push blue in other areas that are less characteristic but also less likely to be busted, then you're bleeding it and messing with color identity.

If that's the case then they need to change the identity. If card draw and library manipulation are blue's identity, but they're inherently broken, they need to move away from that and into something else. White has changed a lot since 1993. Blue could too.

Move more toward trickery and manipulation. That's the way to do it. Something like Morph should probably be a blue ability. Illusions are a good one too. Making "knowledge" a central part of blue's identity is silly because other colors are about knowledge too. It's just that they usually come at a price in the other colors. Why should blue give up nothing for that too?

 

[WanderingWind]

I feel like just don't give blue the best creatures in the game. That'd be a killer start. Morph as a blue ability is perfect. Green needed shroud because when every color besides green has "remove target green creature" and green's entire identity is "stomp their nuts" it needed the help. Blue never needed hexproof because it has counters, bounce, flash and flying to avoid creature kill.

 

[OnPoint]

I feel like just don't give blue the best creatures in the game. That'd be a killer start. Morph as a blue ability is perfect. Green needed shroud because when every color besides green has "remove target green creature" and green's entire identity is "stomp their nuts" it needed the help. Blue never needed hexproof because it has counters, bounce, flash and flying to avoid creature kill.

Right. So blue now has access to these creature abilities:

Flying
Hexproof
Undercosted + Overpowered
Unblockable

And the spells have:

Card draw
Counter magic
Bounce abilities
Exile creatures
Tap-down

I'd say blue's identity has been solidly formed. It's just "best".

Creatures should probably be low-powered fliers that need manipulation spell help to get through. High costed fatties should probably have drawbacks of some sort or just cost a lot.

The spells are fine, but they need to cut back on the card draw, card selection, manipulation aspect.

 

[WanderingWind]

I definitely agree (and I think recent cards have backed this up) that blue doesn't need exile any longer. It already has bounce and tap down. Short of "kill that guy" blue spells do everything to remove creatures from combat already.

Yeah, giving them smaller flyers that need spell backup would be a nice balance for all the cool stuff the spells get. And if hexproof needs to stick around, I really, really don't understand why it's not solely a green ability. Maybe flavorwise hexproof as a activated ability ala Prog Sphinx or UU: ~ gets hexproof until end of turn. But as a passive ability, that shit needs to be gone from the color pie that can already tap, bounce, counter and be unblocked.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The biggest problem for me is that not only is blue just the best color, it can passably approximate the other colors too.

None of the things Blue can do to approximate other colors should be cheap, either. Tap down for multiple turns already costs very little and sometimes they decide to staple cantrips to it because hey, its blue. And yes, stopping that would make certain people whine incessantly about card advantage. Well, guess what, maybe Blue should stop being blatantly overpowered all the time. I mean, they still print virtually unrestricted bounce for 1 CMC.

 

[kirblar]

Hexproof in blue was a massive mistake. They had Shroud. It was fine.

 

[ThLunarian]

I definitely agree (and I think recent cards have backed this up) that blue doesn't need exile any longer. It already has bounce and tap down. Short of "kill that guy" blue spells do everything to remove creatures from combat already.

 

[WanderingWind]

I knew somebody was going to post Pongify or Rapid Hybridzation. Pongify was time shifted, and Rapid should absolutely have been a G/U hybrid card.

But it's fun to see us all agree on something for a change.

 

[OnPoint]

I knew somebody was going to post Pongify or Rapid Hybridzation. Pongify was time shifted, and Rapid should absolutely have been a G/U hybrid card.

But it's fun to see us all agree on something for a change.

 

[Firemind]

Well counterspell is basically kill any guy + anything else you might play that annoys me.

Also I played psionic blast in legacy that one time.

 

[WanderingWind]

I know, we were talking about how blue doesn't need this effect any more a couple of posts ago.

 

[Angry Grimace]

All of this is just evidence in the growing pile of FUCK BLUE BAN ISLANDS

 

[OnPoint]

I know, we were talking about how blue doesn't need this effect any more a couple of posts ago.

I know, but I wanted you to realize that this isn't just a time shifted (though Pongify isn't time shifted, the border is normal) card, or should-have-been dual-color mistake. It was printed in the block after Rapid Hybrid, and it's obviously part of blue's modern color pie for some reason.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Pongify, Polymorph, Curse of the Swine, Ixidron, etc...

If these effects aren't blue, I don't know where they go. I agree that they all "feel" UG, but that has less to do with the colors and more to do with Ravnica lore and how the Simic guild is portrayed. I don't think you can have an entire class of effects that only go in a color pair.

At least Prodigal Pyromancer is red now.

 

[OnPoint]

Pongify, Polymorph, Curse of the Swine, Ixidron, etc...

If these effects aren't blue, I don't know where they go. I agree that they all "feel" UG, but that has less to do with the colors and more to do with Ravnica lore and how the Simic guild is portrayed. I don't think you can have an entire class of effects that only go in a color pair.

At least Prodigal Pyromancer is red now.

Blue could have a temporary exile, lending credence to the transformation aspect of the abilities.

If it read: "Turn target creature face down. It is now a 2/2 Green Frog Lizard. If it dies, flip this card back over." it would be way, way better, and prevent blue from being mega OP with exile effects that just trade your potentially good creature for a shitty one.

 

[WanderingWind]

I mean, Damnation is considered "time shifted" or at least it's referred to as such, and it's in a normal border. Maybe I should lengthen that to "It was in the Time Spiral block, so the normal rules don't apply." But you get what I mean, regardless of semantics. And yes, I realize it is a part of blue, that's why were talking about it not needing to exist in blue any longer.

Bottom line, ban islands.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Blue could have a temporary exile, lending credence to the transformation aspect of the abilities.

If it read: "Turn target creature face down. It is now a 2/2 Green Frog Lizard. If it dies, flip this card back over." it would be way, way better, and prevent blue from being mega OP with exile effects that just trade your potentially good creature for a shitty one.

It also wouldn't work under the rules since face down creatures are 2/2 typeless by definition. But all they have to do is make it an Enchantment with Flash that says its a 2/2. If it were up to me, that effect would have an upkeep cost too.

 

[OnPoint]

I mean, Damnation is considered "time shifted" or at least it's referred to as such, and it's in a normal border. Maybe I should lengthen that to "It was in the Time Spiral block, so the normal rules don't apply." But you get what I mean, regardless of semantics. And yes, I realize it is a part of blue, that's why were talking about it not needing to exist in blue any longer.

Bottom line, ban islands.

No, Damnation is most certainly in a color-shifted border.

Vs

Note the solid dark grey text boxes, which are on a lot of color shifted cards. Also the different background pattern. I can see how you'd miss that, they look remarkably similar.

But honestly yeah, we definitely are on the same page.

It also wouldn't work under the rules since face down creatures are 2/2 typeless by definition. But all they have to do is make it an Enchantment with Flash that says its a 2/2. If it were up to me, that effect would have an upkeep cost too.

I like how you think. Upkeep costs should definitely be in blue.

 

[Matriox]

Right. So blue now has access to these creature abilities:

Flying
Hexproof
Undercosted + Overpowered
Unblockable

And the spells have:

Card draw
Counter magic
Bounce abilities
Exile creatures
Tap-down

I'd say blue's identity has been solidly formed. It's just "best".

Creatures should probably be low-powered fliers that need manipulation spell help to get through. High costed fatties should probably have drawbacks of some sort or just cost a lot.

The spells are fine, but they need to cut back on the card draw, card selection, manipulation aspect.

They also get extra turns, which doesn't help their argument lol.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Blue could have a temporary exile, lending credence to the transformation aspect of the abilities.

If it read: "Turn target creature face down. It is now a 2/2 Green Frog Lizard. If it dies, flip this card back over." it would be way, way better, and prevent blue from being mega OP with exile effects that just trade your potentially good creature for a shitty one.

Yeah, the transformation effects aren't what make blue good. They're only barely playable (if it wasn't for Tidebinder Mage already being played because of blue devotion, I don't think Rapid Hybridization would have seen any real play during it's time in Standard).

I get that blue feels frustrating at times, but this isn't the effect to go after.

 

[Yeef]

Hence why a conversation about a "fair" game of EDH is kind of pointless. But its still such a blatant color pie violation that it pisses me off.

There's no color pie violation on the Kraken. The card draw ability has been in Blue for awhile, even though it's not used that often.

I do feel like it's undercosted though, but then, I don't play much EDH.

 

[OnPoint]

There's no color pie violation on the Kraken. The card draw ability has been in Blue for awhile, even though it's not used that often.

I do feel like it's undercosted though, but then, I don't play much EDH.

It's a 5/5 with an ability for five mana. That's green's arena. 5/5 krakens are supposed to have drawbacks.

It's also one of the better, if not the best lieutenant.

 

[WanderingWind]

I would okay with that particular effect being a UG one for life, tbh. Temporary, activated exile effects alone feel blue, with things like Aetherling being exceptionally mono blue, but that should be limited to how its used on that card.

 

[Crocodile]

Blue regularly gets large sea monsters at common (sometimes with a minor drawback) in regular sets. Heck we had Benthic Giant in Theros at common and it isn't that much worse than this card which is a RARE in supplemental product. This is where people are "drawing the line"? Man you people love to whine. I feel like people forgot then when creatures in Magic got better creatures in ALL colors got better (and they had to for the sake of limited and constructed).

The biggest problem for me is that not only is blue just the best color, it can passably approximate the other colors too.

None of the things Blue can do to approximate other colors should be cheap, either. Tap down for multiple turns already costs very little and sometimes they decide to staple cantrips to it because hey, its blue. And yes, stopping that would make certain people whine incessantly about card advantage. Well, guess what, maybe Blue should stop being blatantly overpowered all the time. I mean, they still print virtually unrestricted bounce for 1 CMC.

Are you seriously whining about about Crippling Chill and Icy Blast? LOL Yeah those cards are are tearing competitive and casual constructed a new asshole. What abilities is Blue approximating that it doesn't blatantly share with another color or is doing worse than another color?

Blue could have a temporary exile, lending credence to the transformation aspect of the abilities.

If it read: "Turn target creature face down. It is now a 2/2 Green Frog Lizard. If it dies, flip this card back over." it would be way, way better, and prevent blue from being mega OP with exile effects that just trade your potentially good creature for a shitty one.

This is way more complex than what cards like Pongify and Curse of the Swine already do (i.e. annoying for judges and players) and are only printable in sets with Morph since a face down card has defined properties. There's also the issue where Pongify and Curse of the Swine are only marginally playable cards so I have no idea why you're even complaining about them.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I just hate cards like Rapid Hybridization because the downside is so generically irrelevant most of the time in constructed (since a 3/3 generic is rarely playable regardless of its casting cost in more constructed environments) and blowing your own guys up when they get targeted with Doom Blade or whatever is a legitimate thing to do in limited.

Blue regularly gets large sea monsters at common (sometimes with a minor drawback) in regular sets. Heck we had Benthic Giant in Theros at common and it isn't that much worse than this card which is a RARE in supplemental product. This is where people are "drawing the line"? Man you people love to whine. I feel like people forgot then when creatures in Magic got better creatures in ALL colors got better (and they had to for the sake of limited and constructed).



Are you seriously whining about about Crippling Chill and Icy Blast? LOL Yeah those cards are are tearing competitive and casual constructed a new asshole. What abilities is Blue approximating that it doesn't blatantly share with another color or is doing worse than another color?



This is way more complex than what cards like Pongify and Curse of the Swine already do (i.e. annoying for judges and players) and are only printable in sets with Morph since a face down card has defined properties. There's also the issue where Pongify and Curse of the Swine are only marginally playable cards so I have no idea why you're even complaining about them.

Here's the thing - red can black CANNOT remove enchantments, period. They just can't do it, and if they can through Artifacts or whatever, its fucking expensive as hell. Bounce generally speaking costs less than "destroy" effects but the tempo loss often doesn't make those effects that much worse than simple destroy effects.

Big creatures being expensive is a part of Blue's color pie and always has been. They don't just "get better."

 

[OnPoint]

This is way more complex than what cards like Pongify and Curse of the Swine already do (i.e. annoying for judges and players) and are only printable in sets with Morph since a face down card has defined properties. There's also the issue where Pongify and Curse of the Swine are only marginally playable cards so I have no idea why you're even complaining about them.

Because exile is white. And exiling my creature for a 2/2 or a 3/3 often results in it being awful for me.

But you're a blue apologist.

Carry on then.

 

[Firemind]

I think blue is fine now. No cheap instant drawing effects, no cheap hard counters, no mind control effects under five mana.

I just hate cards like Rapid Hybridization because the downside is so generically irrelevant most of the time in constructed (since a 3/3 generic is rarely playable regardless of its casting cost in more constructed environments) and blowing your own guys up when they get targeted with Doom Blade or whatever is a legitimate thing to do in limited.

LOL pongify is terrible in a lot of matchups. Against mono red it usually eats one of your own mans to eat their mans.

 

[acheron_xl]

I think blue is fine now. No cheap instant drawing effects, no cheap hard counters, no mind control effects under five mana.

But in legacy formats like EDH...

 

[WanderingWind]

Also, calm down Croc. Sheesh. This isn't Boros Reckoner we're talking about here.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think blue is fine now. No cheap instant drawing effects, no cheap hard counters, no mind control effects under five mana.


LOL pongify is terrible in a lot of matchups. Against mono red it usually eats one of your own mans to eat their mans.

Sure, but Rapid Hybridization was very much playable in mono-blue devotion last year when that was a deck.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I just hate cards like Rapid Hybridization because the downside is so generically irrelevant most of the time in constructed (since a 3/3 generic is rarely playable regardless of its casting cost in more constructed environments) and blowing your own guys up when they get targeted with Doom Blade or whatever is a legitimate thing to do in limited.

Mono-Blue Devotion was an aberration in terms of blue decks that could afford to 0-for-1 themselves by playing Pongify. When you talk about cards that actually matter in a serious, competitive metagame, the power level of Pongify is below the threshold of playability in 99% of decks.

In Limited? It's a counterspell for their removal spell - sort of. I suppose it counters their bomb too, which could be annoying, but in Limited a 3/3 is almost always a relevant creature. It only barely meets the threshold for playability in Limited as well.

Again, if you want to raise issues with the power level of blue in general, you're welcome to it. This is just a silly place to draw the line.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Mono-Blue Devotion was an aberration in terms of blue decks that could afford to 0-for-1 themselves by playing Pongify. When you talk about cards that actually matter in a serious, competitive metagame, the power level of Pongify is below the threshold of playability in 99% of decks.

In Limited? It's a counterspell for their removal spell - sort of. I suppose it counters their bomb too, which could be annoying, but in Limited a 3/3 is almost always a relevant creature. It only barely meets the threshold for playability in Limited as well.

Again, if you want to raise issues with the power level of blue in general, you're welcome to it. This is just a silly place to draw the line.

Its not really a matter of power level so to speak, its more like blue being able to deal in some sense with everything seems wrong from a flavor perspective. Having shitty creatures and bad interaction with permanents is part of its drawback for being blue.

What I'm trying to say is, ban Island.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Its not really a matter of power level so to speak, its more like blue being able to deal in some sense with everything seems wrong from a flavor perspective. Having shitty creatures and bad interaction with permanents is part of its drawback for being blue.

What I'm trying to say is, ban Island.

It's really bad for the game if blue is always pigeonholed into interacting on the stack and playing draw-go.

Trust me, you don't actually want the world to be the way you're describing.

 

[WanderingWind]

Well, from mono U, the creature that was most blue was Master of Waves. It cost a fair amount, had a tricky ability and could close out games. If you had a counter at the ready, or some other trick up your sleeve. Plus, Merfolk are the bluest tribe in the multiverse.

So, it's not all bad. I think after all these mulit-color sets, they need to do a block where the rules really matter again. Sort of reset the rampant bleed over that's been happening.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's really bad for the game if blue is always pigeonholed into interacting on the stack and playing draw-go.

Trust me, you don't actually want the world to be the way you're describing.

Mono-blue isn't a real deck 99% of the time, though.

 

[Crocodile]

Because exile is white. And exiling my creature for a 2/2 or a 3/3 often results in it being awful for me.

But you're a blue apologist.

Carry on then.

First off at the bolded:

Second off, Polymorph effects represent Blue' affinity for transformation. It's not straight up removal and has never been flavored that way. Using Pongify to kill a dude is almost always worse than Swords or Path to Exiling it. Heck exiling is better than destroy from a power level concern because it's harder to abuse for shenanigans with your own dudes (like using Hybridization on an active God). The function is not the same as White removal and it isn't flavored like White's removal. Most of the time (90+%) these sorts of cards aren't even good. What's the issue?

But in legacy formats like EDH...

Well they can't unmake cards that have already been printed :/

Also, calm down Croc. Sheesh. This isn't Boros Reckoner we're talking about here.

What did Boros Reckoner do aside from being super powerful? No color pie violations from what I saw/remember.

 

[WanderingWind]

Reckoner was super powerful. I agree.

 

[Firemind]

But in legacy formats like EDH...

Well they can't do much about eternal formats short of banning cards. What happened in the past happened.

Sure, but Rapid Hybridization was very much playable in mono-blue devotion last year when that was a deck.

It didn't enable the deck. It was just an average utility card that was sometimes needed to deal with problematic threats.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Well they can't do much about eternal formats short of banning cards. What happened in the past happened.


It didn't enable the deck. It was just an average utility card that was sometimes needed to deal with problematic threats.

The playability isn't really the point. Blue functionally can do everything. The fact that it doesn't need to because it can just play Brainstorm and Force of Will doesn't change the underlying issue.

 

[OnPoint]

First off at the bolded:

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1112/11123556/2604354-3777669238-3907593-8870966785-proxy[/IMG

Second off, Polymorph effects represent Blue' affinity for [B]transformation[/B]. It's not straight up removal and has never been flavored that way. Using Pongify to kill a dude is almost always worse than Swords or Path to Exiling it. Heck exiling is better than destroy from a power level concern because it's harder to abuse for shenanigans with your own dudes (like using Hybridization on an active God). The function is not the same as White removal and it isn't flavored like White's removal. Most of the time (90+%) these sorts of cards aren't even good. What's the issue.[/QUOTE]
Laugh all you want but that's how you're coming off.

OK, so Polymorph, a 4-cmc spell, that probably gets you a threat out of your deck and doesn't exile, it destroys

vs

Rapid Hybridization, which is a 1-cmc spell, that gets you a vanilla piece of shit token, and exiles

I will grant you Swords is better. But giving your opponent a land is probably way, way worse for you than giving them a creature.

The issue isn't with the power. The issue is that Blue should not be able to exile things permanently.

 

[WanderingWind]

tl;dr: We're mostly talking flavor and bleed over, not necessarily power. Expect with hexproof being a blue feature. That's mostly aboot power.

 

[Firemind]

I really think you underestimate the downside of giving your opponent a hill giant. Blue has always been identified as the control colour and in those decks it's pretty bad.

If Thassa wasn't printed in its original state, mono blue wouldn't even be a deck.

Edit: Croc is talking about blue's ability to transform creatures. Pongify and Rapid Hybridization do just that. I'm not sure what's wrong from a flavour point of view.

 

[OnPoint]

I really think you underestimate the downside of giving your opponent a hill giant. Blue has always been identified as the control colour and in those decks it's pretty bad.

If Thassa wasn't printed in its original state, mono blue wouldn't even be a deck.

Edit: Croc is talking about blue's ability to transform creatures. Pongify and Rapid Hybridization do just that. I'm not sure what's wrong from a flavour point of view.

Stormbreath Dragon attacks
Defending player casts Rapid Hybridzation targetting Stormbreath
Attacking player gets token
Defending player has activated Thassa on board.

Was a pretty common scenario in that standard.

Didn't even have to be Thassa. Could have been Frostburn Weird. The resulting 3/3 was largely worthless in that standard.

As for the thing you edited in, transformation is fine. Cheap, non-specific exile effects are not. Look at Polymorph, it costs 4 and doesn't exile, and is a much more fair return for the player who is getting targeted.

Its not flavor, its the fact that it functionally can destroy creatures in some capacity. Red and Black can't interact with enchantments in any real way drawbacks or not.

Solid, solid point. They guard this so closely you'd think the whole game would fall to pieces if they fucked it up.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I really think you underestimate the downside of giving your opponent a hill giant. Blue has always been identified as the control colour and in those decks it's pretty bad.

If Thassa wasn't printed in its original state, mono blue wouldn't even be a deck.

Edit: Croc is talking about blue's ability to transform creatures. Pongify and Rapid Hybridization do just that. I'm not sure what's wrong from a flavour point of view.

Its not flavor, its the fact that it functionally can destroy creatures in some capacity. Red and Black can't interact with enchantments in any real way drawbacks or not. That just bugs me.

 

[Firemind]

Its not flavor, its the fact that it functionally can destroy creatures in some capacity. Red and Black can't interact with enchantments in any real way drawbacks or not. That just bugs me.

So what? Blue shouldn't be able to interact with creatures? Never mind Control Magic effects beats most removal spells, especially in limited environments, but somehow that evades people's attention.