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[OnPoint]

So what? Blue shouldn't be able to interact with creatures? Never mind Control Magic effects beats most removal spells, especially in limited environments, but somehow that evades people's attention.

Bounce effects act as removal, tap down effects act as a temporary solution.

They already have ways to interact, and one could argue that they have the most ways to do so.

Control magics are fine because they're usually costed appropriately and can be destroyed in most cases. Plus the ability is super blue.

 

[Crocodile]

Here's the thing - red can black CANNOT remove enchantments, period. They just can't do it, and if they can through Artifacts or whatever, its fucking expensive as hell. Bounce generally speaking costs less than "destroy" effects but the tempo loss often doesn't make those effects that much worse than simple destroy effects.

Big creatures being expensive is a part of Blue's color pie and always has been. They don't just "get better."

Laugh all you want but that's how you're coming off.

OK, so Polymorph, a 4-cmc spell, that probably gets you a threat out of your deck and doesn't exile, it destroys

vs

Rapid Hybridization, which is a 1-cmc spell, that gets you a vanilla piece of shit token, and exiles

I will grant you Swords is better. But giving your opponent a land is probably way, way worse for you than giving them a creature.

The issue isn't with the power. The issue is that Blue should not be able to exile things permanently.

Blue has been transforming one creature to another creature for YEARS. Polymorph is just a catch all term for that effect that refers to perhaps the most iconic of that subset of cards and it came out back in Mirage over 15 years ago. The color has ALWAYS had this ability and it is rarely ever an issue. Rapid Hybridization continues that trend but it is an actively bad card more often than not. Constructed decks don't turn to Blue for this sort of removal and sometimes it blew up in your face in limited. Mono-Blue devotion is probably the first time the card has seen constructed play. I'm sure Fog has seen more constructed play than Rapid Hybridization and its ilk.

• It's a long established, flavorful, in color effect
• For most of the history of the game, these cards have been terrible in constructed and irrelevant in casual. Bearing a brief aberration (which had a lot to do with BotG and following sets being weak and Master of Waves and Thassa being pushed) they will return to being irrelvant in constructed.

There is no flavor issue, no color pie issue and no power level issue. Why are you upset?

 

[OnPoint]

Blue has been transforming one creature to another creature for YEARS. Polymorph is just a catch all term for that effect that refers to perhaps the most iconic of that subset of cards and it came out back in Mirage over 15 years ago. The color has ALWAYS had this ability and it is rarely ever an issue. Rapid Hybridization continues that trend but it is an actively bad card more often than not. Constructed decks don't turn to Blue for this sort of removal and sometimes it blew up in your face in limited. Mono-Blue devotion is probably the first time the card has seen constructed play. I'm sure Fog has seen more constructed play than Rapid Hybridization and its ilk.

• It's a long established, flavorful in color effect
• For most of the history of the game, these cards have been terrible in constructed and irrelevant in casual. Bearing a brief aberration (which had a lot to do with BotG and following sets being weak and Master of Waves and Thassa being pushed) they will return to being irrelvant in constructed.

There is no flavor issue, no color pie issue and no power level issue. Why are you upset?

I was playing before Mirage, I remember when the card came out. I don't need a history lesson.

I feel like you're wrong, and that exiling a creature and for a cheap cost with minimal drawback is not blue. You are free to disagree. Obviously Wizards is on your side too.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Power level has nothing to do with anything. That's like saying Hornet Queen isn't a color pie violation just because it costs 7 CMC.

 

[Firemind]

Blue can't destroy artifacts and enchantments, has no unconditional board sweeper, has no way to discard opponent's hand (besides piracy charm i guess), no ramping etc. Blue can do a lot, but not everything.

 

[ultron87]

I was playing before Mirage, I remember when the card came out. I don't need a history lesson.

I feel like you're wrong, and that exiling a creature and for a cheap cost with minimal drawback is not blue. You are free to disagree. Obviously Wizards is on your side too.

The effect going from Destroy to Exile is actually better for the flavor. Turning a thing into a frog and then getting to Raise Dead it was nonsensical.

 

[Crocodile]

I was playing before Mirage, I remember when the card came out. I don't need a history lesson.

I feel like you're wrong, and that exiling a creature and for a cheap cost with minimal drawback is not blue. You are free to disagree. Obviously Wizards is on your side too.

I honestly wasn't trying to be condescending, there's no way for me to know how long you've been playing. You're free to not like it of course but transformation has been a long standing fantasy trope WOTC wants to express in its game. When there is no favor, color pie or power level issues in play all you're kind of left with is "I don't like thing 'cause".

Power level has nothing to do with anything. That's like saying Hornet Queen isn't a color pie violation just because it costs 7 CMC.

Yeah this comparison doesn't work when I've already established that it's in flavor and in Blue's color pie. Blue has been interacting with creatures in this way forever and Blue's weaknesses in interacting with permanents is still a fundamental flaw of the color.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yeah this comparison doesn't work when I've already established that it's in flavor and in Blue's color pie. Blue has been interacting with creatures in this way forever and Blue's weaknesses in interacting with permanents is still a fundamental flaw of the color.

I have an alternate theory it "doesn't work" because you really, really like blue.

 

[OnPoint]

The effect going from Destroy to Exile is actually better for the flavor. Turning a thing into a frog and then getting to Raise Dead it was nonsensical.

Often times, when things are transformed in fiction they transform back. What happened to the body man?

Blue can't destroy artifacts and enchantments, has no unconditional board sweeper, has no way to discard opponent's hand (besides piracy charm i guess), no ramping etc. Blue can do a lot, but not everything.

Jeeze so wrong.

Blue has Disperse which can bounce non-land permanents.

Blue has mass bounce spells to sweep the board, often at game-winning instant speed and sometimes that exclude the caster's creatures.

Blue has Vendillion Clique for hand destruction.

I'll give you ramp, though. I can't think of any.

I honestly wasn't trying to be condescending, there's no way for me to know how long you've been playing. You're free to not like it of course but transformation has been a long standing fantasy trope WOTC wants to express in its game. When there is no favor, color pie or power level issues in play all you're kind of left with is "I don't like thing 'cause".

Yeah this comparison doesn't work when I've already established that it's in flavor and in Blue's color pie. Blue has been interacting with creatures in this way forever and Blue's weaknesses in interacting with permanents is still a fundamental flaw of the color.

Gotcha. Sorry for thinking you were being condescending, just took it that way haha

I'm not disagreeing that transformation is blue. I'm only arguing Exile.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Yeah this comparison doesn't work when I've already established that it's in flavor and in Blue's color pie. Blue has been interacting with creatures in this way forever and Blue's weaknesses in interacting with permanents is still a fundamental flaw of the color.

I completely agree. Creature transformation/weakening is part of blue's identity. It's similar to how blue always gets the -X/-0 effects; it can't remove the creature, but it can spend an entire card to make it worse. It's neither overpowered or out of flavor.

I have an alternate theory it "doesn't work" because you really, really like blue.

You two are just having a disagreement; don't try to "win" by making his opinion somehow invalid through a different axis. That's just lame.

Again, I don't think you're wrong to feel that blue is the strongest color in Magic. But this particular effect really, really isn't what you should be arguing about.

 

[ultron87]

Often times, when things are transformed in fiction they transform back. What happened to the body man?

Yes, but things don't get turned into a monster and then come back to life later on to co-exist with said monster.

I do agree that a way for them to transform back would be ideal. The "turn target creature face down" spell would be the best way to model this effect since the creature stays on the board and actually does become different, but that only works in a morph block. The exile way is the best way a paper game can model a permanent polymorph effect that isn't an enchantment.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Yes, but things don't get turned into a monster and then come back to life later on to co-exist with said monster.

I do agree that a way for them to transform back would be ideal. The "turn target creature face down" spell would be the best way to model this effect since the creature stays on the board and actually does become different, but that only works in a morph block. The exile way is the best way a paper game can model a permanent polymorph effect that isn't an enchantment.

I'd agree, except that actually raises the power level of the effect, and I don't think that's healthy. Making it aura-based is probably the cleanest way to do it if you really don't want it to say "destroy."

 

[Angry Grimace]

You two are just having a disagreement; don't try to "win" by making his opinion somehow invalid through a different axis. That's just lame.

I'll get around to that when "LOL" stops being a valid response.

 

[Crocodile]

I have an alternate theory it "doesn't work" because you really, really like blue.

Ok buddy. I'm trying to see it from your vantage point but if you insist its not the power level that bothers you then I don't know how it can be flavor or color pie concerns. The color has been doing this FOREVER and its flavor has already been made explicit. It really sounds like "I don't like this because reasons" which isn't giving me much to work with.

I'm not disagreeing that transformation is blue. I'm only arguing Exile.

So it's just the exiling part that bothers you? Yeah that was a recent change but as ultron87 pointed out, its cleaner and I feel pretty confident that its a power nerf for the mechanic since its harder to abuse rather than a power buff.

 

[Matriox]

I think blue is the most powerful color and can do the most with its identity than any other color. I find it hard to argue against that. Maybe flavor wise it makes sense they can do it, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they can do a lot with their flavor.

 

[The Technomancer]

If that's the case then they need to change the identity. If card draw and library manipulation are blue's identity, but they're inherently broken, they need to move away from that and into something else. White has changed a lot since 1993. Blue could too.

Move more toward trickery and manipulation. That's the way to do it. Something like Morph should probably be a blue ability. Illusions are a good one too. Making "knowledge" a central part of blue's identity is silly because other colors are about knowledge too. It's just that they usually come at a price in the other colors. Why should blue give up nothing for that too?

Honestly, I'm not sure if they need to move away from card drawing and manipulation in blue given both how ingrained they are and how they're kind of important effects in the game. I just think that mono U, because it has access to such potent abilities, should also be really hard to win with. If blue gets some of the best toys it should also have to team up to actually kill people

Which we do see to an extent.

 

[ThLunarian]

Blue can't destroy artifacts and enchantments, has no unconditional board sweeper, has no way to discard opponent's hand (besides piracy charm i guess), no ramping etc. Blue can do a lot, but not everything.

Steal Artifact, Steal Enchantment, Upheaval, Sway the Stars, Amnesia, Vendilion Clique, Venarian Gold, High Tide, Vedalken Engineer, Dreamscape Artist

 

[SigmasonicX]

Creeping Vines(?)
Creature - Plant Elemental
Trample
1G: Target creature you control has base power and toughness 5/5 until end of turn and gains trample until end of turn.
5/5

Everyone gets a vine car!

 

[Haly]

There's effect "bleeding", but notice how all those have a distinctly blue bent to them rather than being straight up effects from other parts of the color pie.

Like how white can do destruction by: exiling, destroying attackers, wrath effects, destroying large creatures.

Rather than dilute blue, I'd rather they just bring everyone else to blue's level. Black's been getting cards-for-life out the ass recently. And green is getting ever closer to that ideal, playable "draw based on your creature size" card. They've also gotten a lot of library tutoring/digging, which is historically blue, but they're limited to creatures and lands, which makes it green.

 

[Angry Grimace]

All of this could be solved by banning Island.

 

[Firemind]

I think blue is the most powerful color and can do the most with its identity than any other color. I find it hard to argue against that. Maybe flavor wise it makes sense they can do it, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they can do a lot with their flavor.

In my honest opinion, white is the most versatile colour and bleeds more into the colour pie than any other colour. It can remove creatures efficiently (StP), destroy artifacts/enchantments (disenchant), destroy lands (armageddon), destroy all creatures (wrath), exile cards from graveyards (purify the grave), ancestral recall (land tax), aggro since savannah lions, reanimate (resurrection), repeatable reanimate (sun titan), generate tokens (sacred mesa), pump creatures (crusade), counter spells (lapse of certainty), there's not much white can't do.

Blue is the strongest colour though; hard to argue against that.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm not convinced that blue being able to do a bit of everything is the problem. Blue just shouldn't be good at it. And really its not, you don't see a lot of "steal enchantment" effects tearing up the competitive scene. But too often it is good at two specific things: manipulating resources, and ending the game. It should have one or the other, and since the first is kind of core to its identity...

See, the problem though is that this essentially means "don't give Blue any big evasive creatures" because if you do you take away one of the only reasons a blue player has to splash other colors. But I'm not sure how that policy would fly internally or with the playerbase

 

[OnPoint]

Yes, but things don't get turned into a monster and then come back to life later on to co-exist with said monster.

I do agree that a way for them to transform back would be ideal. The "turn target creature face down" spell would be the best way to model this effect since the creature stays on the board and actually does become different, but that only works in a morph block. The exile way is the best way a paper game can model a permanent polymorph effect that isn't an enchantment.

What if it just worked like oblivion ring

 

[ultron87]

What if it just worked like oblivion ring

I'm not really sure what you're proposing here.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm not convinced that blue being able to do a bit of everything is the problem. Blue just shouldn't be good at it. And really its not, you don't see a lot of "steal enchantment" effects tearing up the competitive scene. But too often it is good at two specific things: manipulating resources, and ending the game. It should have one or the other, and since the first is kind of core to its identity...

See, the problem though is that this essentially means "don't give Blue any big evasive creatures" because if you do you take away one of the only reasons a blue player has to splash other colors. But I'm not sure how that policy would fly internally or with the playerbase

You mean cards like Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Aetherling and Pearl Lake Ancient? Most of the cards are actually at their best against other Blue-based control decks. Bounce is too ephemeral, counterspells too poor (in modern times) and those finishers are too slow for Blue control to handle early threats, it already needs to use other colors anyway. All removing those class of cards would do is make games involving Blue control take even slower as they take even longer to kill you but they've already stabilized and still have stabilizing cards at their disposal.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm not really sure what you're proposing here.

"Exile target creature. Reveal cards blah blah put that creature into play. When that creature leaves play, return the exiled creature to play"

 

[OnPoint]

"Exile target creature. Reveal cards blah blah put that creature into play. When that creature leaves play, return the exiled creature to play"

This is cool.

I was thinking more along the lines of

____________________________________

Polymorphist's Result - 2U

Creature - Mutant

Flash
When Polymorphist's Result comes into
play, exile target creature.
That creatures's controller gains control
of Polymorphist's Result.
When Polymorphist's Result leaves play,
return the exiled creature to play under
its owner's control.

3/3
____________________________________

 

[ultron87]

If you change the creature into something why would killing it bring it back in its old shape?

 

[OnPoint]

You end the curse or spell?

 

[Haly]

That MMO logic...

 

[OnPoint]

That MMO logic...

I've honestly never played an MMO lol

 

[ultron87]

You end the curse or spell?

Well Black or Red certainly shouldn't be able to do that.

 

[OnPoint]

Well Black or Red certainly shouldn't be able to do that.

Well blue shouldn't exile but here we are lol

They wouldn't have to necessarily. Blocking with it kills it. That's not color. Hell, give it shroud

I don't agree that black and red shouldn't if the logic is death ends the spell, but we can split hairs all day. I'm just trying to say there are ways to do it that don't exile.

 

[Yeef]

I don't agree that black and red shouldn't if the logic is death ends the spell, but we can split hairs all day. I'm just trying to say there are ways to do it that don't exile.

Exiling makes sense, flavor-wise. The thing it was before doesn't exist any more. Now it is only The Fly.

Mechanically, putting it on the bottom of the library is similar but gives you the chance to get it back. Still, I don't see a problem with Pognify and Rapid Hybridization from a design perspective. It's the development that's bonked. They need to cost a little more and be sorceries or cost a lot more and stay as instants.

 

[ultron87]

I'd totally be open to the argument that this effect should just always be an aura like Darksteel Mutation. But I do like the simplicity and permanence of the token replacement method.

 

[charlequin]

If there's one thing that tells me that nothing ever really changes, it's being here twenty years later and seeing people have the exact same arguments about blue they were having when I started.

U/R artifact commander deck, mill all of the things and reanimate every artifact.

There still isn't a U/R artifact-themed commander though.

It really was that bad. Not to mention it was followed up by Nemesis and Prophecy, which were both equally as bad if not worse.

No, no, Nemesis at least had fading. Prophecy, OTOH, is unambiguously the worst set they've ever put out.

If these effects aren't blue, I don't know where they go.

In blue, but tucking the creatures back into the library.

Hexproof was a massive mistake. They had Shroud. It was fine.

FTFY

 

[OnPoint]

I'd totally be open to the argument that this effect should just always be an aura like Darksteel Mutation. But I do like the simplicity and permanence of the token replacement method.

That's not bad as well. I'd be cool with that, even if it had flash.

 

[The Technomancer]

If there's one thing that tells me that nothing ever really changes, it's being here twenty years later and seeing people have the exact same arguments about blue they were having when I started.

That's because 20 years later they still can't develop blue for shit

 

[OnPoint]

If there's one thing that tells me that nothing ever really changes, it's being here twenty years later and seeing people have the exact same arguments about blue they were having when I started.

Yeah... let's look back to 20 years ago...

The Power 9: Ancestral Recall, Time Twister, Time Walk -- the only non-artifact cards in the entire group

Ancestral Recall itself was far and away the best and most broken of a 1 mana, three-something cycle, setting the stage for blue's dominance. Even with Lightning Bolt's efficiency and Dark Ritual's abusability, Giant Growth is merely OK and Healing Salve is a fucking joke. Recall is fucking bonkers.

I mean, 20 years and they still only kind of toned it back. 20 years and we're having the same conversations because blue is still pretty much that much better.

 

[ThLunarian]

No, no, Nemesis at least had fading. Prophecy, OTOH, is unambiguously the worst set they've ever put out.

Prophecy is pretty bad, but Homelands is much worse. I can't think of a single playable card in that entire set.

 

[OnPoint]

Prophecy is pretty bad, but Homelands is much worse. I can't think of a single playable card in that entire set.

Merchant Scroll

I remember Serrated Arrows and Autumn Willow being used and/or hyped at the time. But Merchant Scroll is the only one that I can see that has held up at all. It's a bad, bad set.

 

[The Technomancer]

Prophecy is pretty bad, but Homelands is much worse. I can't think of a single playable card in that entire set.

I mean, what the fuck

 

[ThLunarian]

Yeah Prophecy has a lot of shit too, but it at least had some Standard role players. Chilling Apparition, Scoria Cat, Withdraw, Rebel Informer, Citadel of Pain.

It also had Avatar of Woe which is a casual all-star and has been reprinted several times, and Chimeric Idol which was a Standard mainstay in multiple tier 1 decks in its time. Rhystic Study is basically mandatory in Commander blue decks.

Homelands pretty much only has Merchant Scroll and Serrated Arrows. I guess you may be able to stretch that out to Autumn Willow too if you quint.

Fallen Empires is also perilously close to unplayable. Only Hymn to Tourach and High Tide keep it out of reach of Homelands.

 

[OnPoint]

C'mon, who doesn't love this?

I mean, I'm a little surprised Foil didn't ever see play. I also mistakenly thought Daze was this set, it was the one before. God Prophecy is really bad.

 

[narcosis219]

C'mon, who doesn't love this?

I mean, I'm a little surprised Foil didn't ever see play. I also mistakenly thought Daze was this set, it was the one before. God Prophecy is really bad.

RAIGEKI

 

[Angry Grimace]

That's because 20 years later they still can't develop blue for shit

That's because the original design for Magic gave blue inherently overpowered abilities that when pushed to any serious degree break the game.

 

[OnPoint]

That's because the original design for Magic gave blue inherently overpowered abilities that when pushed to any serious degree break the game.

Giving one color the complete mastery of time itself was stupid. They should have never printed cards that did that stuff ever.

It still pretty much has that, too. All throughout Magic's history, aside from Final Fortune and a few artifacts (that I can think of), extra turns are almost entirely blue's realm. It's insane to think about, really.

 

[ElyrionX]

When are we getting full C14 spoilers?

 

[An-Det]

Tom LaPille just tweeted that he is leaving WOTC and moving to Santa Monica to work for Activision. Best of luck to him.

 

[Yeef]