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[charlequin]

That and the fact that they don't necessarily know how it will play out.

I think you are reading more hesitancy into their use of the mechanic than is really there. They made it the marquee for the set after all.

Yes but that doesn't mean they automatically are natural inclusions everywhere they go.

So what are you arguing now? Jace shouldn't be the protagonist of every single set ever released? Okay good, everyone including Wizards is in agreement then.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think you are reading more hesitancy into their use of the mechanic than is really there. They made it the marquee for the set after all.



So what are you arguing now? Jace shouldn't be the protagonist of every single set ever released? Okay good, everyone including Wizards is in agreement then.

Fun fact: Jace was, in fact, originally the protagonist of Theros.

 

[kirblar]

Memory was correct re: BFM per Maro's article (apparently it wasn't close)

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

So what are you arguing now? Jace shouldn't be the protagonist of every single set ever released? Okay good, everyone including Wizards is in agreement then.

I would accept jace getting killed off instead of all the good innistrad characters

 

[OnPoint]

It means she trades down much more than at 4, even a regularly cast fiery temper kills her, Radiant flames for 3 kills her, Chandra lives through killing her, dromoka's command can trade her for a pacifist and still choose a 2nd mode, the angel from Linvala trades with her,...

OK. She dies to some removal. As many 4-cmc creatures do. But we can play this game the other way, too. Avacyn, Eerie Interlude and Eldrazi Displacer all can save her from any of these things.

She's still insane.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So what are you arguing now? Jace shouldn't be the protagonist of every single set ever released? Okay good, everyone including Wizards is in agreement then.

You made the case for Jace being on Innistrad making sense and not being shoved in and now you're just bringing up points that have little to do with that argument.

Yes Jace isn't the protagonist of many sets and yes he can be the protagonist of sets without problems.

OK. She dies to some removal. As many 4-cmc creatures do. But we can play this game the other way, too. Avacyn, Eerie Interlude and Eldrazi Displacer all can save her from any of these things.

She's still insane.

she dies to removal as many 4-cmc creatures do, how many aside from Kalitas are being played (?), plus some. TKS, Archangel of Tithes, Kalitas, Goldnight Castigator,... all live through the before mentioned.

 

[y2dvd]

Hanweir Garrison - Pretty aggressive. W/R tokens? I'd put this in my Boros EDH deck.
Gnarlwood Dryad - 1 mana that probably doesn't take too much work to become a 3/3.
Blessed Alliance - Would've seemed ok for control, except tokens is a thing.
Bruna - Too slow. Should've been an etb at that cost. Would that break older formats?
Gisela - Seems pretty pushed. Fights Bant's Dromoka's Command creatures pretty well with the 4 power and first strike.
Brisela - Feels like too much work only to get 2 for 1'd.

 

[Santiako]

The land half of Hanweir is an instant edh staple. Kicker R to get your creatures haste? Yes please.

 

[The Technomancer]

Honestly I'm glad they gave Tamiyo as big of a role in the story as she had, frankly. I almost would have expected them to ignore her

 

[Angry Grimace]

I know its a weird angle and just a random uncommon

 

[Jhriad]

Oh, so your interpretation of how the card would turn out was right, so I have to not only tell you that you were right, but you also think I should be forced agree that the design is wonderful? Guess what? NO FUCKING SHIT I WAS WRONG; the card clearly works that way, we can all just read it. Is there some reason that needs to be said other than stroking your ego?

It's almost like someone could not like a specific mechanic and not be insulting your family honor.

I know it fits your username but the constant bellicosity and the occasional hostility therein has really gotten a little old. Relax, man.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Bruna - Too slow. Should've been an etb at that cost. Would that break older formats?

Semi-serious answer: they don't want you to get Iona, Shield of Emeria with a Bruna's ETB.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

I think you are reading more hesitancy into their use of the mechanic than is really there. They made it the marquee for the set after all.

Sure don't read like it based on the article

The design team was instantly enamored with the meld cards, but it took some time to convince all of R&D. We experimented with different numbers of meld cards before deciding to have three. We even fooled around with meld cards using more than two pieces, but decided that we should first walk before we ran—and if meld was a success, future design teams could figure out what new things could be done with the mechanic.

 

[OnPoint]

she dies to removal as many 4-cmc creatures do, how many aside from Kalitas are being played (?), plus some. TKS, Archangel of Tithes, Kalitas, Goldnight Castigator,... all live through the before mentioned.

Ain't many, but there ain't many good ones to be honest (Castigator is a loose inclusion, but you don't have much better at that CMC). That's not the point though. Name me 5 creatures in Standard CMC 4 or below that also see play that avoid ALL of the removal you are suggesting.

 

[Toxi]

---->

This is so fucking cool

Gonna see about making a Bruna, the Fading Light EDH deck just for the possibility of getting this out.

 

[Hero]

Well yeah, I said I didn't necessarily believe it was going to actually use the double-card design; that much is reasonably clear. Obviously it did turn out that way. So what's your point? Someone else was wrong on the internet and you need to make sure they know it, as often as possible? Perhaps you might consider reflecting on what point you are trying to convey here.

Just bringing it up since it didn't seem like you were going to.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Ain't many, but there ain't many good ones to be honest (Castigator is a loose inclusion, but you don't have much better at that CMC). That's not the point though. Name me 5 creatures in Standard CMC 4 or below that also see play that avoid ALL of the removal you are suggesting.

I mean there aren't many because the metagame consists of "deck that plays 0 creatures over 3 CMC," and a couple of "decks that mostly plays Planeswalkers."

It's basically just Kalitas and TKS at the 4 drop slot seeing play at all.

Just bringing it up since it didn't seem like you were going to.

Sure, but "I told you so" isn't really a point of discussion, its just rubbing it in.

My issuet was just skepticism it would reach print in the double-card form, presumably for the same reasons R&D seemed skeptical of it in Maro's article today. I'm not really sure how you can argue the skepticism regarding the mechanic had no merit whatsoever given R&D was also skeptical of the idea.

 

[Metroidvania]

So, trade with Gisela, then re-summon with Bruna M2 later-on and get right into the beating?

I dunno, something about it seems a bit...lackluster.

'Dies to removal' is a silly argument, sure, especially with the 3cmc no-go, but in this case, it'd be a two for one scenario. Seems somewhat risky, though admittedly, the other keywords give you a lot of breathing room if you can get even one swing off.

Probably will have to play with it a bit, and I'm admittedly also rusty on what's running around in standard atm.

Still utterly dislike that they'd wreck the angels like this, tho.

 

[charlequin]

You made the case for Jace being on Innistrad making sense and not being shoved in and now you're just bringing up points that have little to do with that argument.

I'm not clear what the argument is at this point besides "rarr rarr Jace *spit* *growl*"

Sure don't read like it based on the article

Doesn't read like what?

Still utterly dislike that they'd wreck the angels like this, tho.

People should really have not gotten too invested in angels of goodness and light that live in a horror world, lol. At least one survived!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Ain't many, but there ain't many good ones to be honest (Castigator is a loose inclusion, but you don't have much better at that CMC). That's not the point though. Name me 5 creatures in Standard CMC 4 or below that also see play that avoid ALL of the removal you are suggesting.

I mean sure it's the 4th best creature at 4CMC if it's going to see play.

I'm not clear what the argument is at this point besides "rarr rarr Jace *spit* *growl*"

sure if that's how you want to end it. Fine by me, rarr rarr Jace is dumb *spits on the ground before your feet*.

 

[charlequin]

sure if that's how you want to end it. Fine by me, rarr rarr Jace is dumb *spits on the ground before your feet*.

I wanted to end it with a real debate but nobody would actually respond to my questions by making a case with evidence

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm not clear what the argument is at this point besides "rarr rarr Jace *spit* *growl*"



Doesn't read like what?



People should really have not gotten too invested in angels of goodness and light that live in a horror world, lol. At least one survived!

Jace doesn't even seem THAT powerful. Liliana made it clear she could wreck him, Tamiyo clearly thought he was a moron, Sorin was un-mistakably stronger than he was, Ugin pretty much said "fuck outta here with that mind shit" when he tried it on him. Jace loses in combat to Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh, e.g. he can get beaten up by a 10 year old girl.

 

[OnPoint]

I mean sure it's the 4th best creature at 4CMC if it's going to see play.

I mean you named two and Castigator is barely even played (and this is better). But ok.

 

[Metroidvania]

People should really have not gotten too invested in angels of goodness and light that live in a horror world, lol. At least one survived!

TBH I'd have been fine with the angels just going loopy/Inquisition because of Nahiri fucking with the moon or what have you, that'd fit in with the gothic horror motif without having to resort to it all being Emrakul all along.

Also, at some point, you need some sort of balance between good and evil, or you risk either killing off the plane, or perpetually leaving it in horror, which, while fun to read, risks salting the fields.

Avacyn Restored was a push too far in the 'good' direction, sure, but this feels like a bit of an over-correction.

 

[charlequin]

Jace loses in combat to Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh, e.g. he can get beaten up by a 10 year old girl.

I never thought about it this way, but... lol, true.

Also, at some point, you need some sort of balance between good and evil, or you risk either killing off the plane, or perpetually leaving it in horror, which, while fun to read, risks salting the fields.

I mean planes in Magic are little mini-brands. If the brand of the plane is "Horror World" it really does have to stay horrific forever because they need to be able to go back and see it be horrifying next time they visit.

They'll probably have new protectors by the end of the story (Sigarda plus maybe zombie WB angel??) but killing off the existing ones is a logical result of the world getting corrupted and screwed up.

 

[Toxi]

madness and Delirium also back

Neat art.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

People should really have not gotten too invested in angels of goodness and light that live in a horror world, lol. At least one survived!

it would have at least been interesting if it was part of Innistrad, but instead they bring their zendikar story over to innistrad and use that to wreck the plane utilizing a character that has been nearly irrelevant (Nahiri).

There was also a shitload of story potential with Avacyn potentially having an interesting developing dynamic with Sorin and the plane once learning he created her. Instead they bypassed all that with this dumbass emrakul story and madness and lol now the angels are killing everyone

 

[charlequin]

Re: number of meld pairs:

it would have at least been interesting if it was part of Innistrad, but instead they bring their zendikar story over to innistrad and use that to wreck the plane utilizing a character that has been nearly irrelevant (Nahiri).

It's Gothic Horror world, it's like 20 times more appropriate for Eldrazi than Zendikar ever was.

I don't really think there's that much interesting story potential with Avacyn there, especially since she's a planebound character. There's basically two outcomes there, she kills Sorin or Sorin kills her, they went with the second one.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

There's basically two outcomes there, she kills Sorin or Sorin kills her, they went with the second one.

thats some pretty narrow thinking

 

[SigmasonicX]

Wow, Jace really rustles some jimmies, huh?

Updated the OP. I chose to use the "Moons over my Emmy" joke in the mechanics section, for those upset it wasn't the title.

It's disappointing that meld appears so infrequently, such that we've already seen all of them, but if it's a success, I guess we can expect more of it in Invasion of Vryn (just a random guess, not hinted at all).

With emerge, I'm surprised that it's also an alternate cost instead of a pure cost reduction, but I guess this is a good way to get "colored Eldrazi" into the set without devoid.

Escalate is a pretty good upgrade to entwine. Considering it does exactly what entwine does but with more options but not so much more that it can step on other mechanics, I think we've seen the last of entwine. By the way, I like the flavor of that cathar turning to black magic in the absence of Avacyn, and it not being presented as a bad thing.

Also, three-option escalate.

(EDIT: For those wondering, yes, you can use it to destroy Emrakul, since it targets the opponent, but it's only going to happen if you topdeck it unless the person controlling Emrakul has a brainfart.)

This is so fucking cool

Gonna see about making a Bruna, the Fading Light EDH deck just for the possibility of getting this out.

Oh damn, I was wondering why they were both mono-white, but now it makes sense!

 

[Metroidvania]

It's Gothic Horror world, it's like 20 times more appropriate for Eldrazi than Zendikar ever was.

Nah, Innistrad was pretty firmly 'traditional' horror. It's not a complete jump to Lovecraftian, (especially since Wizards worked pretty hard to transfer things over), but imo, Zendikar was the better choice for the battle of 'Earth/Nature/Gaia' versus the Lovecraftian/Otherworldly Eldrazi.

But then again, it's a change from a 'fight' into something more along the lines of 'look how much shit is fucked'.

Oh damn, I was wondering why they were both mono-white, but now it makes sense!

I did think that was a nice touch, to show them slowly getting 'bleached' by Emrakul, as it were.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I wanted to end it with a real debate but nobody would actually respond to my questions by making a case with evidence

Seriously I was ok with ending it but let's do this. Here's your original argument let's leave aside all the mostly not derision free arguments you've responded with since.

1) Wizards Creative is committed to having a central cast of characters who appear across sets now because it helps them sell more cards and keep people more engaged with the storytelling, so SOI has to have one -- it can't just be Tamiyo investigating all on her own since that doesn't tie into anything else going on.

2) SOI is built around two mysteries -- the one Jace thinks he's going to solve (what happened to Sorin) and the one he actually has to solve (what is screwing up Innistrad). It makes sense diegetically for him to be the one wrangling with the first one; it makes sense metatextually for him to be in the position to deal with the second one.

3) Consider who else they would even send, in-world, to do this. Nissa is busy taking care of her fucked up world. Gideon beat the hell out of himself and needs to take a spa day before he's good for anything again. Chandra is the least subtle person in the world so she's terrible to send to a place she doesn't know to gather information. Plus, Jace actually talked with Ugin during BFZ and so he's the one with the most direct proximate cause to seek Sorin out.

4) As you already mentioned, Jace has a pre-existing relationship with Liliana which means he's the only narrative entry point to bring her into things -- none of the other Gatewatch members have ever even interacted with her.

5) On a meta-narrative level again, once they decided to make the Origins Five the focus of the storyline, they started cycling through them as face characters of sets to let them a) give each one some spotlight, b) tie them all together in this new narrative approach, and c) print a card for each one. BFZ block picked the characters with the most direct connection to its ongoing storyline -- Nissa (who's from there) and Gideon (whose current story arc kicked off specifically in fighting the Eldrazi.) Liliana was always going to get a spot in one of the two Innistrad sets because she's associated with the plane and fits perfectly with its theme. The next block is Kaladesh where Chandra will obviously be the face since it's her homeworld. That means there's literally no choice other than Jace to front SOI and no other set in this window that makes more sense for him to lead.

I mean, this seems like a gimme to me. Compared to Worldwake (where Jace is really just kind of there to fill a seat) he's set up very well narratively to be the guy here.

Ad 1 has nothing to do with arguing why it makes sense for Jace to be there narratively but their product.

Ad 2 The set is built around sending Jace on a goose chase then deus ex machina throw Sorin into it. There wasn't well thought through reason for Jace to go find Sorin, Ugin mentioned him sure but Nissa already dealt with him and clearly knows Sorin gives no fucks about the Eldrazi anymore.

Ad 3 Tamiyo

Ad 4 Liliana was already there and needed no bringing into it, made obvious by the fact that Jace didn't succeed in bringing her into it. But it was for once a scene that pitched two characters against each other with a prior established relationship. It does make sense for Jace to seek out help from Liliana.

Ad 5 see ad 1

 

[Giant Panda]

I mean, you push them together and it literally just looks like a card.

Expect it will be twice as big as all the other cards, and in sleeves they won't line up perfectly. I imagine that trying to actually play with two separate cards that are supposed to act as one will be inconvenient, and that people will just end up playing with the bottom card most of the time like that other gaffer suggested.

 

[Firemind]

Amazingly I can use neither in my Angel tribal EDH deck. How does Gisela not even have a static effect?!

Why can't you use either in Angel tribal EDH? I tells ya, Angel stans are spoiled.

 

[Toxi]

Amazingly I can use neither in my Angel tribal EDH deck. How does Gisela not even have a static effect?!

Why not? Bruna even has an Angel tribal ability.

 

[The Technomancer]

Wait the proportions on the merged double cards really work out perfectly?

EDIT: 0.714 to 0.7, so not quite, but damn close

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Why can't you use either in Angel tribal EDH? I tells ya, Angel stans are spoiled.

Why not? Bruna even has an Angel tribal ability.

Emeria Shepherd is better at 7 (8 ideally), despite being counterable

And the 4 CMC slot for angels is crowded, I don't even have room for a baneslayer.

 

[Daedardus]

Expect it will be twice as big as all the other cards, and in sleeves they won't line up perfectly. I imagine that trying to actually play with two separate cards that are supposed to act as one will be inconvenient, and that people will just end up playing with the bottom card most of the time like that other gaffer suggested.

The line up shouldn't be an issue. You have to get them out of their sleeves anyway if you meld them, you better keep them out when it happens like everyone already does when they play DFCs. Sleeves are mostly for shuffling anyway, they might get damaged more for repeatingly getting taken out and put in.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I'm surprised to see a legendary tutor effect in this set.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I like that Aurora of Emrakul is a reflection, since it's such an unusual type but still one that has a history.
EDIT: Also, it's weird that the Hanweir cards are red flavored and aggressive, when the Hanweir Chronicle didn't present them that way.

 

[Toxi]

I'm surprised to see a legendary tutor effect in this set.

Awesome card for mono-White and Boros EDH, since it helps deal with the problems White and Red have grabbing creatures from the deck.

It's like this set is begging me to get on the Brisela EDH train. Use this to fetch Gisela, sac it to some other effect, play Bruna to resurrect it and find another Legendary creature.

 

[Giant Panda]

I have to say I quite like escalate and emerge as mechanics.

The line up shouldn't be an issue. You have to get them out of their sleeves anyway if you meld them, you better keep them out when it happens like everyone already does when they play DFCs. Sleeves are mostly for shuffling anyway, they might get damaged more for repeatingly getting taken out and put in.

I keep my DFCs in clear but normal sized sleeves and put the check cards in my deck. To get them to line up I'd have to not sleeve them, or only use the perfect fit sleeves, which is just as yuck.

 

[Venfayth]

So I used to play MTG, some of you may remember me from the Innistrad/RTR days, but I haven't been active in quite a while. My parents finally got sick of me storing boxes and boxes of junk at their house, so when I was visiting for Father's Day (unbeknownst to me beforehand) they decided it was time for me to take my stuff back or throw it out.

Well, I just happened to have thousands upon thousands of cards, thankfully I'd sorted them into rarity previously, and put some into a book. I tossed the commons and uncommons, kept my rares and mythics. I've really no use for them and don't see myself going back, and due to life stuff I could use some extra money.

Does anyone know the best way to sell these?

Unrelated, I keep seeing these images show up on reddit and they're killing me

Hit him with ur crossbow steve

Shoot her with ur crossbow steve

 

[Toxi]

Emeria Shepherd is way, way better at 7 (8 ideally)

Redundancy is a good thing though, especially in White EDH.

Bruna provides good immediate card advantage in White, a color that often struggles with card advantage. While she's nowhere near the most powerful White card at her CMC, she's hardly bad. And as a general, she's a fun, flavorful option for mono-White that lets you build Angel/Human tribal with an extra cool effect if you can grab Gisela.

 

[Xis]

I'm surprised to see a legendary tutor effect in this set.

This reminds me - by now, we should have some cards that hint at the themes of next Spring's big set. (With the new three-block standard, all three blocks need to have synergy). I am definitely not saying this is it (they tried legendary as a block theme before, and it turned out poorly), but are there other oddball cards that hint towards anything?

 

[Santiako]

I know it was a given, but investigate not coming back bums me out. It's such a great mechanic.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I like Escalate because I like Entwine as a mechanic and its multi-Entwine, that in the case of cards with 2 mechanics is just straight up Entwine (I think).

This reminds me - by now, we should have some cards that hint at the themes of next Spring's big set. (With the new three-block standard, all three blocks need to have synergy). I am definitely not saying this is it (they tried legendary as a block theme before, and it turned out poorly), but are there other oddball cards that hint towards anything?

A bunch of the cards from Kaladesh that we saw in Origins were artifact themed, which works pretty well with Investigate (e.g. tapping clues for Aether Grid or as part of Thopter Spy Network)

I'm surprised to see a legendary tutor effect in this set.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I like that Aurora of Emrakul is a reflection, since it's such an unusual type but still one that has a history.
EDIT: Also, it's weird that the Hanweir cards are red flavored and aggressive, when the Hanweir Chronicle didn't present them that way.

Card I wish I liked, but I don't because its white and costs the same as Avacyn and most of the time why wouldn't I play Avacyn. I guess maybe I'm thinking of it too narrowly and you could use it to find Emrakul or something.

What I'm really hoping is that Delirium gets enough cards to actually make it constructed viable. There's quite a few VERY GOOD Delirium cards that don't see play. It's possible Emrakul is the payoff there. Traverse the Ulvenwald, Mindwrack Demon and Emrakul are all good cards that are pushed enough to see play, I just don't know if there's enough around them.

 

[SigmasonicX]

So I used to play MTG, some of you may remember me from the Innistrad/RTR days, but I haven't been active in quite a while. My parents finally got sick of me storing boxes and boxes of junk at their house, so when I was visiting for Father's Day (unbeknownst to me beforehand) they decided it was time for me to take my stuff back or throw it out.

Well, I just happened to have thousands upon thousands of cards, thankfully I'd sorted them into rarity previously, and put some into a book. I tossed the commons and uncommons, kept my rares and mythics. I've really no use for them and don't see myself going back, and due to life stuff I could use some extra money.

Does anyone know the best way to sell these?

Unrelated, I keep seeing these images show up on reddit and they're killing me

IIRC, eBay is usually fine as an option, I haven't sold any cards myself, but I would imagine that the cards that are worth something should be sold by themselves, while your junk rares should all be sold together as "MAGIC THE GATHERING RARE CARDS X100" or something.

As for the pictures, maybe Steve is a Platinum Games protagonist.
By the way, I don't recognize what the human art is from.

 

[SigmasonicX]

This reminds me - by now, we should have some cards that hint at the themes of next Spring's big set. (With the new three-block standard, all three blocks need to have synergy). I am definitely not saying this is it (they tried legendary as a block theme before, and it turned out poorly), but are there other oddball cards that hint towards anything?

BFZ's Eldrazi triggering specifically on colorless cards was a hint at an artifact set, and investigate pooping out artifact tokens pointed toward mechanics that care about artifacts on the battlefield. We'll probably get artifacts that can be sacrificed to tie in with delirium, but I haven't seen anything that points to some recognizable theme other than artifacts.

EDIT: Whoops, I intended to check to see if there was another post, and if not, just edit this into my previous post.

 

[Angry Grimace]

This is the weirdest Liliana art.

 

[Santiako]

Gnarlwood dryad seems really really good.