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Magic: the Gathering |OT8| Eldritch Moon - It's only a paper (and digital) moon

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Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Okay, so, answer me this: why is Jace in Shadows Over Innistrad?

Not as a card, from a narrative perspective, as an author's character. Why is Jace here? There's already a character with a personal stake in the events that's more interesting and thematically appropriate. There's already another character that's clearly capable of filling the role of protagonist-cipher/outsider investigator. There are other Gatewatch members you could certainly use, if you felt it was explicitly necessary to tie those threads together.

Is the answer "because Jace has ties with Lilianna and we want to do something with her"? Okay. Why does Jace have ties with Lilianna, when they already explicitly had her character tied to Garruk? What was the actual reason for linking Lilianna and Jace in the sort of slapshod, uninteresting way they are to begin with?

I don't want to belabor the point, but Jace has been overused in their meta-narrative for years, and he almost never adds anything over just using another character entirely. He's like a professional wrestling face that the company wants to push no matter how much the fans groan and refuse to cheer whenever he appears in the main event.

Because they wanted storyline continuity from block to block, which means one of the Gatewatch needed to go there. Gideon is the face-character of BFZ and Chandra is presumably the face character of Kaladesh. The only other option is to send Nissa to Innistrad, which would be really bizarre in my opinion.

Besides, Jace was mostly superfluous to the plot of SOI (I don't know what the plot of EDM is yet, obviously). He mostly was there just so there was a familiar character there to experience the plot.
 
In the Battle for Zendikar story and Shadows over Innistrad so far, Jace has mostly just gotten his ass kicked, though. Even when it came to sealing Ulamog initially, Nissa had to come to his rescue, and channeling the leylines to defeat Ulamog and Kozilek was pretty much just Nissa.

IIRC Jace guided every single Gatewatch member even Nissa when she was doing her inert magic Jace was somehow better at it than her and helped her out.

Shortly after he just so became friends with Chandra for no reason.
 

Toxi

Banned
Jace is in Shadows Over Innistrad because he's the most popular Planeswalker.

He's the most popular Planeswalker because

A. He's a young nerdy dude

B. He's a fairly generic "cool" design with nothing off putting like being a lion man

C. He's Blue
 
Jace was bullied, Gideon was a jock. Most recently SOI

Gideon is a shrimpy kid to start, just look at Kytheon's art.

I mean, I suspect you could get away with doing it like RTR and GTC (which were both regular large sets, I think) without having DGM ever added in (which added very little imo).

Yeah, I agree. DGM was them trying to solve a problem they saw in the first Ravnica block and then solving it very, very badly.

Okay, so, answer me this: why is Jace in Shadows Over Innistrad?

1) Wizards Creative is committed to having a central cast of characters who appear across sets now because it helps them sell more cards and keep people more engaged with the storytelling, so SOI has to have one -- it can't just be Tamiyo investigating all on her own since that doesn't tie into anything else going on.

2) SOI is built around two mysteries -- the one Jace thinks he's going to solve (what happened to Sorin) and the one he actually has to solve (what is screwing up Innistrad). It makes sense diegetically for him to be the one wrangling with the first one; it makes sense metatextually for him to be in the position to deal with the second one.

3) Consider who else they would even send, in-world, to do this. Nissa is busy taking care of her fucked up world. Gideon beat the hell out of himself and needs to take a spa day before he's good for anything again. Chandra is the least subtle person in the world so she's terrible to send to a place she doesn't know to gather information. Plus, Jace actually talked with Ugin during BFZ and so he's the one with the most direct proximate cause to seek Sorin out.

4) As you already mentioned, Jace has a pre-existing relationship with Liliana which means he's the only narrative entry point to bring her into things -- none of the other Gatewatch members have ever even interacted with her.

5) On a meta-narrative level again, once they decided to make the Origins Five the focus of the storyline, they started cycling through them as face characters of sets to let them a) give each one some spotlight, b) tie them all together in this new narrative approach, and c) print a card for each one. BFZ block picked the characters with the most direct connection to its ongoing storyline -- Nissa (who's from there) and Gideon (whose current story arc kicked off specifically in fighting the Eldrazi.) Liliana was always going to get a spot in one of the two Innistrad sets because she's associated with the plane and fits perfectly with its theme. The next block is Kaladesh where Chandra will obviously be the face since it's her homeworld. That means there's literally no choice other than Jace to front SOI and no other set in this window that makes more sense for him to lead.

I mean, this seems like a gimme to me. Compared to Worldwake (where Jace is really just kind of there to fill a seat) he's set up very well narratively to be the guy here.

Why does Jace have ties with Lilianna, when they already explicitly had her character tied to Garruk?

Because Jace and Liliana knock boots while Garruk and Liliana butt heads? I mean they're two very different relationships.

He's like a professional wrestling face that the company wants to push no matter how much the fans groan and refuse to cheer whenever he appears in the main event.

Again, if your theory doesn't account for Jace actually being more popular than other characters it's not very useful.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The bigger problem with EDM is the fact that I'm not sure if there's a card or set of cards that would possibly unmake how ridiculously good white (and GW tokens in general) is in Standard.

Like, I think they'd have to print Flashfires or something. The best creature is white, the best Planeswalker is white, the best removal is white.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Gideon is a shrimpy kid to start, just look at Kytheon's art.

Now I have to wonder...does the spark igniting also Captain America you?

Compared to Worldwake (where Jace is really just kind of there to fill a seat)
Wait a second, have they even addressed the fact that Jace and Chandra literally unleashed the Eldrazi way back when? Did that even come up?
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Now I have to wonder...does the spark igniting also Captain America you?

He spent 10 years training in a prison under Warden Hixus to the tune of a Stan Bush montage song.

Wait a second, have they even addressed the fact that Jace and Chandra literally unleashed the Eldrazi way back when? Did that even come up?

There was a passing reference to it at some point. Nissa and Jace found out about their respective roles in the Eldrazi escape during one of their mind-melds. What they haven't mentioned is that Jace and Chandra unleashed the Eldrazi with the assistance of Sarkhan Vol, who was there because Nicol Bolas sent him there, but Bolas' role in basically any of this remains completely unexplained.
 
Wait a second, have they even addressed the fact that Jace and Chandra literally unleashed the Eldrazi way back when? Did that even come up?

I mean, all they did was accidentally unleash some magical hoodoo because Bolas manipulated them into doing an incredibly specific set of things for which they had no context, which in the scheme of things is way way way less important than Nissa purposely and with clarity breaking the last seal on the prison because she thought the Eldrazi would go away.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Holy shit I'd forgotten all about this, don't the Eldrazi literally get unleashed because Chandra is all like "herp a derp I have this scroll for a weird type of fire and it has a map guess I'll go check it out" and Jace is on some secret mission from the Illuminati to get the scroll back and they just end up in the Eye of Ugin where Chandra totally just fucking uses the Ghostfire and sets off the whole cataclysmic thing. Wow. They have not gotten nearly enough shit for that
 
There was a passing reference to it at some point. Nissa and Jace found out about their respective roles in the Eldrazi escape during one of their mind-melds. What they haven't mentioned is that Jace and Chandra unleashed the Eldrazi with the assistance of Sarkhan Vol, who was there because Nicol Bolas sent him there, but Bolas' role in basically any of this remains completely unexplained.

I'd love if it was something hilariously mundane, like that he likes the taste of a human town merged into a blob.
 
We only ever hear about that, they never publish anything corroborating that ;). Especially not detailed by which demographics he appeals to.

... Why would they do that? What company has ever done that? EDIT: Referring to publishing detailed information about what characters are popular with what demographics.

Besides, you're saying that either:
* They have metrics about which characters are popular, and are lying about Jace being popular... for reasons.
* They don't actually have metrics about which characters are popular, despite all the data they have available.
 
... Why would they do that? What company has ever done that?

Lied, spun something in a positive light when it wasn't that clear cut? Every company ever.

Not saying Wizards did, I thought the smiley sufficed.

Why would they keep making shit featuring Jace if he weren't popular?

why would they not make dwarves, someone at wizards could have a hard on for Jace. But again I wasn't serious, I don't need graphics detailing how popular he is it will still elude me.
 
We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree, as I feel very strongly that Jace is a narrative crutch that the writers at Wizards are letting inhibit them from coming up with more creative, interesting, and world-expanding options.

I would have liked Shadows better if he were not there. Every quote he has on a card sits outside the flavor of the set to me, which is a damn crime for what is easily the most thematically coherent set Wizards has made in recent memory.

That said...

Again, if your theory doesn't account for Jace actually being more popular than other characters it's not very useful.

What is the metric being used?

If the metric is, "His mom (ie, author) says he's popular", I will offer the most obvious counter-point: things that are actually popular virtually never have the people in charge of them publicly address the issue of why they are not popular.

I can't remember ever seeing the creators of Final Fantasy address why people think Cloud Strife is emo, for instance. I don't think Rowling ever fielded the question, "Why is Harry Potter such a prat?" I do think, however, that she felt the need to field the constant questions of why Ron and Hermione ended up together.

This sort of justification tends to be a pretty clear sign that something isn't as popular as it's being portrayed, whether it's The Phantom Menace (the box office was huge, right--surely it must be popular?) or the decision to use "Old Snake" in Metal Gear Solid 4.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm curious if they'll still have 2 Planeswalkers in this set after having 4 in SOI.
 
White is my favorite color dudes
Yeah and blue is nazi colour anyways.

Image.ashx
 
We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree, as I feel very strongly that Jace is a narrative crutch that the writers at Wizards are letting inhibit them from coming up with more creative, interesting, and world-expanding options.

I mean, here's the conversation that I've just had with a few people here:

Jace Haters: Jace is used more than everyone and in worse ways and in places where he doesn't belong!

Me: Okay well you're making some falsifiable claims, let's dive into it. What are your concrete examples and how do they compare to other characters so as to show the discrepancy?

Jace Haters: Let's agree to disagree!

I mean, if Jace is so overused it should be trivial to come up with, what, six or seven blantant examples, right?

If the metric is, "His mom (ie, author) says he's popular", I will offer the most obvious counter-point: things that are actually popular virtually never have the people in charge of them publicly address the issue of why they are not popular.

Most brands don't have a single overenthusiastic hyperactive guy who both runs the brand and executes 90+% of the fandom outreach. Nobody but Maro ever addresses this because nobody but Maro even cares what whiny internet turds think.

This sort of justification tends to be a pretty clear sign that something isn't as popular as it's being portrayed, whether it's The Phantom Menace (the box office was huge, right--surely it must be popular?) or the decision to use "Old Snake" in Metal Gear Solid 4.

What is the reason for this? Your theory is that they created Jace, and everyone hates him, but they want so badly for him to be popular that they constantly tell huge blatant lies, directing everyone at the whole company to do so, because... ?????????? What's the end game here? How do they pull this scam off to some kind of victory? At a certain point doesn't it make more sense to assume people do actually like Jace than to dive into jet-fuel-doesn't-melt-steel-beams territory?

I'm curious if they'll still have 2 Planeswalkers in this set after having 4 in SOI.

Rosewater has made a point of saying that 5 per set is a guideline and that (as they did with M13) they can go up to 11 in a year. The way they've played this block out it would be really weird not to include a card for Tamiyo.
 

Ashodin

Member
charlequin is providing late night punches yo

We gettin ready for them Spoiler BOMBS

I am a slightly bit inebriated
 
I mean, here's the conversation that I've just had with a few people here:

Jace Haters: Jace is used more than everyone and in worse ways and in places where he doesn't belong!

Me: Okay well you're making some falsifiable claims, let's dive into it. What are your concrete examples and how do they compare to other characters so as to show the discrepancy?

Jace Haters: Let's agree to disagree!

I mean, if Jace is so overused it should be trivial to come up with, what, six or seven blantant examples, right?

Your counterargument to Jace not being shoved into SOI was that they created a deliberate narrative that needed one of the group there and Jace was the only option.
That's not falsifying claims but explaining why they did it.

Considering Jace had 7 renditions and 1 appearance in a set without a PW card to go alongside you're basically asking us to tell you why he shouldn't be in 6/8 stories or otherwise where he should have been.

Alara and Ravnica (narratively)
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The idea of Jace being Magical Roman Reigns is pretty funny though.
 
I mean, here's the conversation that I've just had with a few people here:

Jace Haters: Jace is used more than everyone and in worse ways and in places where he doesn't belong!

Me: Okay well you're making some falsifiable claims, let's dive into it. What are your concrete examples and how do they compare to other characters so as to show the discrepancy?

Jace Haters: Let's agree to disagree!

I mean, if Jace is so overused it should be trivial to come up with, what, six or seven blantant examples, right?

The fact that people disagree whether or not a character is being used well in fiction coming down to a difference of opinion on the subject without an objective conclusion shouldn't surprise you this much.

But, okay, if you really insist that hard on continuing this, please do explain to me why "Jace and Liliana knocked boots" makes Jace indispensably vital as a character and contributes more to the rich tapestry of Magic meta-narrative than just, you know, not having done that at all and doing something that wasn't dumb instead.

Let me guess: I'm cherry-picking arguments? Well, too bad. That's the way people who interact in a passing manner with Magic's narrative (ie, most players) tend to remember it: they remember the stand-out moments, and when the stand-out moments for your character are the times they've been induced to roll their eyes and sigh, that's the "character" that they're going to auto-complete to when they hear the name.

What is the reason for this? Your theory is that they created Jace, and everyone hates him, but they want so badly for him to be popular that they constantly tell huge blatant lies, directing everyone at the whole company to do so, because... ?????????? What's the end game here? How do they pull this scam off to some kind of victory? At a certain point doesn't it make more sense to assume people do actually like Jace than to dive into jet-fuel-doesn't-melt-steel-beams territory.

Why did BioWare try to insist for so long that most people weren't really unhappy with Mass Effect 3's ending and there was nothing wrong with it?

That's a serious question, by the way. I'm pretty sure the answers are the same; if you can figure it out, I'd love to know, because frankly I find it to be somewhat more perplexing. I'm sorry if your increasingly reductive view on this* had you expecting a grand conspiracy theory.

*I also find it hilarious you have to have this conversation often enough that you've begun to stereotype "Jace Haters" as a sub-classification of human beings, and yet still somehow insist he doesn't have any popularity issues.
 

cuc

Member
I've found a well-argued theory about Kaladesh's Mechanic E.

Summary:

1. Similar to Mechanic Q (Shadowmoor's Untap), "E" is code for a symbol.
2. As Mechanic E was designed for Mirrodin, along with Equipment, the most likely candidate for "E" is "Unequip" as an activation cost, similar to good old Tap.
3. Flavor-wise, Unequip solves the problem of representing thrown weapons.

My biggest issue is I find the asymmetry between using a keyword for "Equip" and a symbol for "Unequip" strange.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I've found a well-argued theory about Kaladesh's Mechanic E.

Summary:

1. Similar to Mechanic Q (Shadowmoor's Untap), "E" is code for a symbol.
2. As Mechanic E was designed for Mirrodin, along with Equipment, the most likely candidate for "E" is "Unequip" as an activation cost, similar to good old Tap.
3. Flavor-wise, Unequip solves the problem of representing thrown weapons.

My only issue with the theory is I find the asymmetry between using a keyword for "Equip" and a symbol for "Unequip" strange.
Didn't they actually do this in Kamigawa with like a shuriken or something
 

Ashodin

Member
I've found a well-argued theory about Kaladesh's Mechanic E.

Summary:

1. Similar to Mechanic Q (Shadowmoor's Untap), "E" is code for a symbol.
2. As Mechanic E was designed for Mirrodin, along with Equipment, the most likely candidate for "E" is "Unequip" as an activation cost, similar to good old Tap.
3. Flavor-wise, Unequip solves the problem of representing thrown weapons.

My only issue with the theory is I find the asymmetry between using a keyword for "Equip" and a symbol for "Unequip" strange.

Unless Equip gets a new symbol as well.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
People don't like Jace because people don't like Blue.




Which btw is a completely legitimate reason.
 

sgjackson

Member
I'm kinda whatever on Jace as a character but his outfit is ridiculous - not in a "ooh i'm so cool with my hoody" way (that's been discussed to death), but in a "the clothes i canonically wear look like a mediocre cosplayer bought some cloth at wal-mart to make a 'cool' wizard outfit" way.
 

Nikodemos

Member
I'm kinda whatever on Jace as a character but his outfit is ridiculous - not in a "ooh i'm so cool with my hoody" way (that's been discussed to death), but in a "the clothes i canonically wear look like a mediocre cosplayer bought some cloth at wal-mart to make a 'cool' wizard outfit" way.
Isn't a large part of his outfit made of belts?
 

cuc

Member
Didn't they actually do this in Kamigawa with like a shuriken or something
Apparently that's 7 cards over history, to be precise! Shuriken just happened to be the most terrible one.

Darksteel: Heartseeker, Leonin Bola, Surestrike Trident
Betrayers of Kamigawa: Blinding Powder, Shuriken
Worldwake: Razor Boomerang
Ravnica: Sunforger

The other elephant in the room is that it's hard to believe "unattach CARDNAME: do something" can be anywhere near complicated and powerful enough to be a long-running design problem troubling MaRo for 14 years.
 

jph139

Member
I mean, people like Jace for the same reason they didn't like Lorwyn and thought Rise of the Eldrazi was a bad format - people like things as bland, familiar, and vanilla as possible. It's the same as pretty much every other nerdy property.
 

Bandini

Member
The idea of Jace being Magical Roman Reigns is pretty funny though.

"On Zendikar, we had to climb vines into the sky on our quest to defeat the Eldrazi." Jace said, the wind rustling through his freshly gelled hair. "And now that I’m here on Innistrad, I’ve learned a thing or two about slaying big, ugly giants!" Jace cocked his fist mysteriously. "Fie-fi-fo-fum, I smell the blood of Eldrazi scum! My friends and I will be taking this plane back, and you can BELIEVE TH-"
::record scratch::
Mark Rosewater: We regret to inform our fans that Jace Beleron has tested positive for a banned magical substance and will be suspended immediately. He will return 2 days before the release of Eldrich Moon. Pick up a box for only $99.99 at your local game store!
 

Hero

Member
How about the fact that Jace helped to ruin a standard format with JTMS? The flip Jace is also pretty close to being too good.
 
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