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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues

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WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
He's talking about how scrylands effected design in the sets that followed.

Scry and tutors have been around for a bit. Quite a gigantic leap to put that on the lands and not the a mechanic that's been around for more than a decade, yeah?

EDIT: Good work by Steve, but it feels strange that you're not allowed to sideboard until you're already potentially in sudden death. Why is that a rule?
 
Man, Brad, LSV and Finkel are all out in quarters? Thought this was US's pro tour.

man, Duke dropping "the Goggles do nothing". Savage.

edit: Ken Nagle looking like a jojolion supervillain right about now.
 
Scry and tutors have been around for a bit. Quite a gigantic leap to put that on the lands and not the a mechanic that's been around for more than a decade, yeah?

Letting players scry at virtually no extra cost to their deck and in any color (it was pretty much limited to blue before) meant the mechanic was seeing more play and letting players flow through their deck at a more consistent rate. I imagine R&D liked the effect it had.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
uh new mulligan rule?

uh that's not a land?

EDIT: The automobile didn't power the gasoline, in other words. They made the decision to spread scry around, then stapled it to a land - like they have with other effects to varying degree. The scrylands are a result, not the cause.
 

Santiako

Member
Oh wow, they're actually killing the modern pro tour. Makes sense, but I enjoy watching modern and the starcity opens are usually a scrubland.

I hate missing the top 8, I hope the archives are easy to access.
 

f0rk

Member
Saying they were going to keep pushing Magic as e-sports a couple of weeks ago, then go with a cut to top player pay. Classic Wizards
 
Saying they were going to keep pushing Magic as e-sports a couple of weeks ago, then go with a cut to top player pay. Classic Wizards

"Platinum pros will receive an appearance fee of $250 for competing at Pro Tours (previously $3,000), an appearance fee of $250 for competing at the World Magic Cup (previously $1,000), and an appearance fee of $250 for competing at a World Magic Cup Qualifier (previously $500).

These decisions were not made lightly, and were finalized only after much discussion about the goals of the Pro Tour Players Club. The appearance fees we awarded for Platinum pros were meant to assist in maintaining the professional Magic player’s lifestyle; upon scrupulous evaluation, we believe that the program is not succeeding at this goal, and have made the decision to decrease appearance fees."


WTF

How is an over 90% pay decrease supposed to help pro players maintain that lifestyle? 12 grand a year to 1 grand. That's pretty insulting.
 

f0rk

Member
I imagine they are going to at least push it back a year. They just changed what the pros have already been working towards this season which is fucked up
 

bigkrev

Member
I get that the change from Platinum to a giant World Championship pool of $500K is a move to make the game seem bigger to casuals, it's going to mean that lots of people are going to be playing in less events because making Platinum really doesn't mean anything anymore.

Also, wasn't Hasbro talking up ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS? They just made the idea of playing Magic for a living impossible.
 
I get that the change from Platinum to a giant World Championship pool of $500K is a move to make the game seem bigger to casuals, it's going to mean that lots of people are going to be playing in less events because making Platinum really doesn't mean anything anymore.

Also, wasn't Hasbro talking up ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS? They just made the idea of playing Magic for a living impossible.

People are still going to show up to PT's and the bigger prize pool will draw more viewers in and make Worlds much more of an event. It sucks for the grinders and the overall quality of competition might drop but it isn't a terrible move strictly from an "ESPORTS!" angle.

The path moving forward for grinders I think is going to rely on streaming. This move makes a lot of sense in a world where MTGO is a pleasant digital environment and streaming Magic is popular and a viable way to pay your rent. I'd like this announcement a lot more if they implemented it next year, that way you don't screw over all the guys who already invested resources into getting Platinum and it was starting closer to Digital Next's launch.
 

ironmang

Member
Anybody here grind mtgo standard pptqs? Wondering if they fire consistently since any time I'm ever on the client it looks like nobody is signed up for non-limited pptqs.

I'd consider putting a standard deck together on there if there was more to do with it than just leagues.
 

Crocodile

Member
Looking at my twitter feed, those pay cuts are going over about as well as a lead covered balloon. They seem massive overall. Pro-player exodus incoming? Are there more announcements planned (as perhaps replacement incentives?)

They are

Edit: the scrylands forever changed the game. Look at how many cards all the decks are seeing per game. All the tutors. The scrylands led to better players winning more often and i think they pushed that into other areas of the game in a huge way post theros.

Well there's the new mulligan rule and actual new cards that have scry on them but are there non-scry cards specifically you have in mind when you say this? Dark Petition isn't exactly some new paradigm.
 
People are still going to show up to PT's and the bigger prize pool will draw more viewers in and make Worlds much more of an event. It sucks for the grinders and the overall quality of competition might drop but it isn't a terrible move strictly from an "ESPORTS!" angle.

The path moving forward for grinders I think is going to rely on streaming. This move makes a lot of sense in a world where MTGO is a pleasant digital environment and streaming Magic is popular and a viable way to pay your rent. I'd like this announcement a lot more if they implemented it next year, that way you don't screw over all the guys who already invested resources into getting Platinum and it was starting closer to Digital Next's launch.

On the one hand, it doesn't make sense for the tournament organizer to also be responsible for the operational expenses of its participants.

On the other hand, there's no way anyone would "sponsor" a Magic pro, even if the game was super popular. You can't expect that viewers will be seeing your name at the top tables/under the feature-match camera with enough certainty, thanks to the variance in the game.

EDIT: Also, congratulations WotC. You successfully ruined the Modern Pro Tour with hamfisted bannings to the point where even I don't want to see it anymore. A mite childish, but point taken.
 

An-Det

Member
Jeez, bad changes pretty much all around, but the timing on it is by far the worst part of it (as in both during the Top 8 when players are fighting for Plat and also not hugely in advance of the events where the changes are relevant, preferably a full season in advance). Boosting the prize at Worlds is the only good part, but forcing a sudden and severe pay cut on pros is huge, and the timing completely overwhelms the narrative of the PT Top 8 going on.

The changes are dumb, but how did they not see this coming and just go with the Worlds payout boost as the announcement today and try to quietly announce the rest on Monday, to at least salvage the narrative over the weekend.
 
Bant Company secret tech?

One of these

40.jpg
8.jpg
80.jpg

Plus

 

Yeef

Member
Company doesn't hit Odric. If you have creatures that cost 4 or more in that deck, they need to be bombs (like Avacyn). And even then, you don't want many of them.
 
Is Dromoka's Command the best fight card ever?


Bant Company secret tech?

You need a sizable portion of your deck to be these flyers in order for Odric to be anything other than a 3/3 for 4. What do you take out? Bant Company is all about tempo and card advantage, weakening that aspect of the deck may leave you too far behind before you can get cute with Odric.
 
uh that's not a land?

EDIT: The automobile didn't power the gasoline, in other words. They made the decision to spread scry around, then stapled it to a land - like they have with other effects to varying degree. The scrylands are a result, not the cause.

It's easy to forget this now but scry lands predate scry as an evergreen mechanic -- in fact, the way it played in Theros was specifically one of the big factors in making it evergreen.

I get that the change from Platinum to a giant World Championship pool of $500K is a move to make the game seem bigger to casuals, it's going to mean that lots of people are going to be playing in less events because making Platinum really doesn't mean anything anymore.

Also, wasn't Hasbro talking up ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS? They just made the idea of playing Magic for a living impossible.

This, more than any other recent change, really goes to show exactly how tight the parental hand on the purse strings really is.

In a lot of ways Hasbro is making smart choices about managing the Magic brand. Someone up there who's looking at how to bring the brand forward has (correctly) identified that they need a brand-new digital presence, that the "esports" market umbrella is the place to position complicated and skill-intensive games like Magic, and that success in esports requires you follow certain aspects of the model like having events with large top-end purses. But because they're a big dumb publicly-traded company there's this fundamental wariness of just spending money on things to make them more successful, so they feel the need to hedge all their new expenditures by cutting back in other places -- thus the pattern of seemingly entirely random cuts that kirblar's been pointing out for a while, because they're having to justify their big new promotional expenses (large event purses and a ground-up digital platform) by shaving off expenses elsewhere.

A lot of these in the past have, I think, actually been pretty insignificant, but this one is assuredly a mistake. I wouldn't be surprised to see them walk it back pretty quickly. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the way this played out internally was that Hasbro asked them to give the pros a small haircut, and they turned it into a really big one with the hope that the resulting backlash would give them the cover to reverse the decision completely -- let's see what happens over the three months before PT EDM.
 
Almost considering making a topic on OT about the payout changes, but it would require a lot of background information. Does anyone know of an article that explains how pros currently attempt to make a living off of Magic, and a link to where Hasbro said they'd be pushing Magic as an e-sport?
 
I can't blame her.



SigmasonicX said:
Almost considering making a topic on OT about the payout changes, but it would require a lot of background information. Does anyone know of an article that explains how pros currently attempt to make a living off of Magic, and a link to where Hasbro said they'd be pushing Magic as an e-sport?

Well the esports thing is on page 7 of Hasbro's recent conference call.

We also have 65,000 players who play in premier events streamed to “esports”
audiences. This is an area we are investing in to both grow the
number of events and the player base.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
It's easy to forget this now but scry lands predate scry as an evergreen mechanic -- in fact, the way it played in Theros was specifically one of the big factors in making it evergreen.

I don't think I'm being very clear here. I am not talking about how Scry isn't an effective mechanic. I am also not confused as to when Scry became an evergreen mechanic. Neither of these things are relevant. What I am saying is that the scrylands themselves were just a part of the return of the Scry mechanic to Magic. Scry powers the lands, the lands didn't reintroduce the mechanic - Theros as a block did that. The lands were a part of that block.

Kirblar isn't wrong that Scry changed how Magic looks today. But putting that on the lands that were one part of the block that reintroduced the scry mechanic on instants, lands, sorceries and creatures (all outside of its traditional blue color pie) and not the mechanic itself is misplaced.

Honestly, this turned into way more text than is really warranted, but I'm trying to make what I'm saying as clear as possible. I am also not crapping on Kirbs opinions. Scry absolutely rewards players more in tune with the meta and better decision making. That's why it's an awesome mechanic to keep around.
 
I wonder if that lawsuit regarding judges has anything to do with this. If WotC knew they were going to have to start employing judges, that money would come out of the Organized Play budget wouldn't it?
 
Alright, I'll probably make a topic about the premier play updates in a few hours.

I plan on linking this article by Brian Kibler on the state of Pro Play to show how pros currently live (is it still accurate?) and Wizards' Pro Players Club page, which hasn't been updated yet. What could also be useful are examples of Magic players who already jumped ship to Hearthstone, and some current reactions to the premier play updates.

I'm going through this effort because the base point of "Hasbro wants to promote Magic as an e-sport, cuts payouts to pros" is amusing enough but requires a fair bit of explanation to go much deeper.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
They have got to have an endgame in mind, right? Sam Pardee's tweets are pretty much on the point. Congrats to WotC for growing the game beyond their wildest dreams, but in a boom, you're supposed to let some of that success trickle down to Joe Shuffler. We didn't get cut into the celebration for their 20th, they're pricing folks right out the game, they're cutting prize money and telling the glue of organized play (judges) to go fuck themselves.

Not really feeling the love.
 

bigkrev

Member
The Platinum payout is now $250. They aren't allowed to play in RPTQs
The RPTQ promo is Liliana of the Veil, worth $200.

This seems... like an incentive to stay Gold and not hit Platinum?

This, more than any other recent change, really goes to show exactly how tight the parental hand on the purse strings really is.

In a lot of ways Hasbro is making smart choices about managing the Magic brand. Someone up there who's looking at how to bring the brand forward has (correctly) identified that they need a brand-new digital presence, that the "esports" market umbrella is the place to position complicated and skill-intensive games like Magic, and that success in esports requires you follow certain aspects of the model like having events with large top-end purses. But because they're a big dumb publicly-traded company there's this fundamental wariness of just spending money on things to make them more successful, so they feel the need to hedge all their new expenditures by cutting back in other places -- thus the pattern of seemingly entirely random cuts that kirblar's been pointing out for a while, because they're having to justify their big new promotional expenses (large event purses and a ground-up digital platform) by shaving off expenses elsewhere.

A lot of these in the past have, I think, actually been pretty insignificant, but this one is assuredly a mistake. I wouldn't be surprised to see them walk it back pretty quickly. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the way this played out internally was that Hasbro asked them to give the pros a small haircut, and they turned it into a really big one with the hope that the resulting backlash would give them the cover to reverse the decision completely -- let's see what happens over the three months before PT EDM.

At a MINIMUM they need to change it so it doesn't take effect until the 2017-2018 season. If people have been traveling to events trying to get Platinum, you can't take that away from them.
 
I am also not confused as to when Scry became an evergreen mechanic. Neither of these things are relevant. What I am saying is that the scrylands themselves were just a part of the return of the Scry mechanic to Magic.

This is just a weird read to me. They brought back scry as a one-off in Theros because they wanted a flavorful card-quality mechanic and the way it played, especially on the lands, was part of the impetus for making it evergreen. In terms of cause and effect, scry would probably not be evergreen today without the scry lands in Theros. Shrug.

I wonder if that lawsuit regarding judges has anything to do with this.

Nah, timing doesn't line up.

They have got to have an endgame in mind, right?

The endgame is a higher-variance pro circuit split across paper and digital with big top-end payouts, but as is WotC tradition they made a tone-deaf cut in one place upfront for payoffs down the road.
 

gai_shain

Member
What is the incentive for people to actually grind and get to platinum now?
Especially if you dont live in the US its just gotten extremely hard and expensive to do this.
Joel Larsson for example isnt even sure if he can continue playing magic (competitive in the way he has until now I assume since he hasnt clarified further).
 
What is the incentive for people to actually grind and get to platinum now?

To be clear, there isn't such an incentive now, and the reason there isn't such an incentive is that they don't care if people do it or not. The precise reason to make this change is because they think (and they're not necessarily wrong) that a high-purse aspirational event will have more overall promotional power than a set of known pros playing regularly in events throughout the year.
 

bigkrev

Member
What is the incentive for people to actually grind and get to platinum now?
Especially if you dont live in the US its just gotten extremely hard and expensive to do this.
Joel Larsson for example isnt even sure if he can continue playing magic (competitive in the way he has until now I assume since he hasnt clarified further).

In the US, there is also the SCG series if you want to play Magic for money, while there isn't a comparable program in the EU
 
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