Presumably whoever they need to convince to back pedal is higher up than with their usual fuck ups
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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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Presumably whoever they need to convince to back pedal is higher up than with their usual fuck ups
A Serious Man
Member
I imagine there is a lot of internal discussion going on right regarding the OP changes. We won't hear from anyone on this until they decide how to respond.
Infinite Stars
Member
Ugh, I need to replace my Thalia's in GW CoCo Hatebears with something. I've been getting more and more disappointed because she either eats a removal spell ASAP or ends up fucking up CoCo's Cost repeatedly. If I was running Vials I'd be fine with that, but Vials are a terrible topdeck. I'm half tempted to just Jam in Duskwatch Recruiters/Hermit of the Knatterknolls or two more Flickerwisps in there.
I just bought myself a full goblins deck from magiccardmarket, it came to about a 100 pounds (no guides obv.), but I had to buy it since I sold all my cards from way back then so I don't have much to trade.
People coming out of nowhere to write stuff about how shitty it is. Brian Hacker even came out of retirement to make a post
Unmade.
Damn you. Sorin! This is all your fault!
Arlinn and Nahiri are worth more than Jace. How is this even possible?
divisionbyzorro
Member
Hasbro views Magic as a toy first, game second.
charlequin
Banned
The issue mostly isn't with getting any particular pro to appear on stream -- I think you do see a measurable and meaningful difference between watching a T8 with LSV/Finkel/etc. and one of nobodies, but that doesn't translate to that much of an actual effect on the business itself.
Rather, the issue is that pros only exist to market the game -- they're people who can make a career, or semi-career, out of playing Magic, which is what inspires every grinder to drop cash on cards and play in events with the hope of eventually qualifying and then rising in the Pro Player Club. The OP system in Magic is almost entirely aspirational and if all the "Pros" are mad about a change that makes it look almost impossible to ride a gravy train, lots of people are just gonna give up and find a different quixotic hobby to spend money on.
Out of curiosity, what do you see as the fundamental point of difference?
I suspect very strongly that this is the type of thing that particularly good faceless suits do, where they put unreasonable budget requirements in place but make the lower-level management actually choose the cuts. If they want to roll this back they'll probably have to find $350k lying around somewhere else, which isn't exactly an afternoon's work.
(I really don't find the argument that this one was driven by legal compelling at all; I can't imagine any scenario where continuing to pay pros, but just paying them less, would do anything to indemnify WotC on employment issues.)
I already sent Rosewater a (very polite) note to this effect, and I hope everyone keeps hammering them on it every possible chance.
I sent one to him as well.
Mine was probably more forcefully worded than yours.
(Tho none of that force was aimed at Rosewater himself, of course.)
You have "stars" but it's not the same as in other games, where skill can catapult you to Jordan/Kobe status. It's also very aspirational in nature, much like MTG.
Mine was probably more forcefully worded than yours.
(Tho none of that force was aimed at Rosewater himself, of course.)Variance. You need a large pool of pros because you never know who's going to rise to the top each time.
You have "stars" but it's not the same as in other games, where skill can catapult you to Jordan/Kobe status. It's also very aspirational in nature, much like MTG.
I actually bought a goblins modern deck as well and sprang for the guides so I was making a transition to burn because the guides are one of the pricey points, and gives some variation on what I want to play.
The way you used to buy into Modern was take a deck from a standard you played, and buy the added cards you need for it. I had an old Standard Affinity deck, I needed to buy Opals and Overseerers for it. If you played Bant or RG in RTR, you can move into Burn if you buy guides, or you can buy Goyfs and start down the Zoo path.
If you don't have much of a collection and you want to jump into Modern, it's not going to be easy. I would probably recommend buying into Merfolk- it's a deck that you can also port to Legacy if you buy Forces down the line.
Well I bought most of burn as well. Fetches, creatures and most of the burn pieces. All I would need is price, chain lightning, and sideboard I think. Would need to check to be certain.
Was out of town all weekend and just catching up on the Pro Player stuff. Slashing the fees for the season that people have been potentially making big sacrifices with the aspiration of making Platinum is super fucked. They have to at least delay the changes to next year or that's just horrible.
It'll be interesting to see how quickly we see the effects beyond the initial outrage and articles. It will be a bummer if we lose stuff like VSL due to this, but it totally makes sense. Why would any of those guys participate in what is essentially a big advertisement for the company that just screwed over them or people they are good friends with?
It'll be interesting to see how quickly we see the effects beyond the initial outrage and articles. It will be a bummer if we lose stuff like VSL due to this, but it totally makes sense. Why would any of those guys participate in what is essentially a big advertisement for the company that just screwed over them or people they are good friends with?
charlequin
Banned
I sent one to him as well.
Mine was probably more forcefully worded than yours.
I was very clear that this was addressed at people other than him who made the relevant decisions, but I did call the choice disrespectful.
This is where my "esports" knowledge is clearly weak, I was under the impression that games like LoL had a pretty broad pool of pros with relatively high turnover as well.
As the day has worn on I've increasingly come to the position that WotC is going to have to roll this back one way or another. Their pro players are so universally against this, and their top brand ambassadors (including people who are practically employees like Buehler) arguing so persuasively and forcefully against it, that it seems like it'll have a real negative brand effect purely from this community response. If they don't, every single thing related to their OP program is just going to get overwhelmed by this until they do something.
A Serious Man
Member
lol
I've digested the pair of dropped bombshells over the last bunch of hours and I'm pretty sure I now know where I stand.
I don't feel like I want to give Wizards/Hasbro any more money until they fix this.
On a personal level: I've spent the last year at least, if not longer, buying into Modern. After so many mistakes and missteps with bannings and overpowered printings, they FINALLY seem to have the format in a nice, diverse place. Then they basically pull the rug out from underneath the whole thing by removing the Modern PT. It's exciting to watch them. I love seeing the tech that comes out of them. The format once was a mountain with a peak people wanted to climb -- they've instead shaved the top off and turned it into a plateau.
On a greater level: Pay the pros what you said you would, at least until the Worlds for this year have come and gone. Then enact a policy change. But for now keep your promise. All that referencing about the irony of the reserved list promise compared to this isn't joking, it's a solid point that's embarrassing for the brand.
I don't feel like I want to give Wizards/Hasbro any more money until they fix this.
On a personal level: I've spent the last year at least, if not longer, buying into Modern. After so many mistakes and missteps with bannings and overpowered printings, they FINALLY seem to have the format in a nice, diverse place. Then they basically pull the rug out from underneath the whole thing by removing the Modern PT. It's exciting to watch them. I love seeing the tech that comes out of them. The format once was a mountain with a peak people wanted to climb -- they've instead shaved the top off and turned it into a plateau.
On a greater level: Pay the pros what you said you would, at least until the Worlds for this year have come and gone. Then enact a policy change. But for now keep your promise. All that referencing about the irony of the reserved list promise compared to this isn't joking, it's a solid point that's embarrassing for the brand.
I'm just sad that we won't get the innovation we currently get in Modern anymore. Pro Tours lead to innovation because the allure of the prize money and pro points (LOLOLOLOLOL now though) bring together large teams of the best players, who are incentivized to work together to break the format. That simply doesn't happen for Grand Prix or SCG events.
That was a big part of what was so exciting. Now what reason do they have to bother? The SCG circuit? Please. That'll normalize and stale-out in record time now.
Grand Prix, which are now basically worthless for any Pro who is already Gold!
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201776535]It's kinda weird how MTG is making more and more money and less money is going to the pro players, but Street Fighter is shitting the bed in terms of sales while the tournament scene is growing exponentially.[/QUOTE]
I mean, it sounds exactly right to me, and a big part of why I seriously question this idea that doing Organized Play right would make WotC way more money.
For a core game where your promise is being a professional player, the vast majority of revenue is received from players that are aspirational rather than actually fulfilling the promise. Pro Tour players don't do anything to keep Magic in business, people who want to be Pro Tour players but won't ever succeed do.
So the important thing to do from a business perspective is not actually to make the top players super happy. It's to make sure the game feels inviting enough and deep enough in an exploratory way that the maximum number of players believe they could be top players if they really tried.
Obviously you don't want to completely burn your top players, but you really don't have to do too much for them besides make it possible for them to make a profit if they win all the time. (And, I mean, it's not like they have a ton of better options for getting paid to play games.)
I mean, it sounds exactly right to me, and a big part of why I seriously question this idea that doing Organized Play right would make WotC way more money.
For a core game where your promise is being a professional player, the vast majority of revenue is received from players that are aspirational rather than actually fulfilling the promise. Pro Tour players don't do anything to keep Magic in business, people who want to be Pro Tour players but won't ever succeed do.
So the important thing to do from a business perspective is not actually to make the top players super happy. It's to make sure the game feels inviting enough and deep enough in an exploratory way that the maximum number of players believe they could be top players if they really tried.
Obviously you don't want to completely burn your top players, but you really don't have to do too much for them besides make it possible for them to make a profit if they win all the time. (And, I mean, it's not like they have a ton of better options for getting paid to play games.)
Probably exactly how Hasbro sees it
I feel kind of bad, I swear I was writing my post for a while and didn't see your post. I did not intentionally make it right after yours!
From a moral and business perspective I think it's pretty bad to take back a fee you already promised players, like, I wouldn't do the specific thing that happened here just because the community backlash would be expensive.
But in general, Hasbro isn't the IOCC or the Olympics Committee or whatever.* Not to get all Jesse Mason, but they unfortunately have zero incentive to care about Magic as a sport or a profession.
* You can tell because all the scandals are about labor mistreatment rather than match fixing and drug use.
A Serious Man
Member
The issue is that there isn't nearly as much to aspire to anymore. I can only speak for myself but having the season basically pay for itself is much more appealing that just getting a lottery ticket.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Even Helene has fallen into the condescension communication trap:
@tweet_cool_man We decided to make the change to ultimately make Pro Magic better; hopefully, Pros and aspiring Pros will realize
Helene Bergeot (@HeleneBergeot) April 24, 2016
@tweet_cool_man We decided to make the change to ultimately make Pro Magic better; hopefully, Pros and aspiring Pros will realize
Helene Bergeot (@HeleneBergeot) April 24, 2016
CeruleanSilver
Member
It's too bad Wizards made the payout change in the middle of a Pro tour season (or something like that I gather?), but I'll tell you, as an enthusiastic casual player of magic, this change won't affect me one bit. I've never watched a single Pro tour match, and I don't care which players are competing.
I can also say that none of the dozen or so friends I play kitchen-table Magic with care about this change. In fact, they don't even know about it, since none of them read about Magic online. So from that perspective, this change makes business sense. These cuts probably just don't affect most regular players of the game.
Maybe there's some number of players that get deeper into Magic because they care about Pro players, but I can see why Wizards doesn't want to spend money just so the very top top players can be assured extra income. There's very public backlash now, because hey, who ever wants cash taken off the table? And naturally all the current pros will see this in a very negative way, and use their platforms to complain about it. But I'm guessing this isn't going to be a sticking point for most players.
I can also say that none of the dozen or so friends I play kitchen-table Magic with care about this change. In fact, they don't even know about it, since none of them read about Magic online. So from that perspective, this change makes business sense. These cuts probably just don't affect most regular players of the game.
Maybe there's some number of players that get deeper into Magic because they care about Pro players, but I can see why Wizards doesn't want to spend money just so the very top top players can be assured extra income. There's very public backlash now, because hey, who ever wants cash taken off the table? And naturally all the current pros will see this in a very negative way, and use their platforms to complain about it. But I'm guessing this isn't going to be a sticking point for most players.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
They pulled out the monetary support in the middle of a season. They could have announced it now and had it take affect in a year's time.
They did so in the most condescending way imaginable. "Please understand, we're doing this for your benefit. When you grow up, you'll understand."
The company continues to tell us the game is growing each and every year more successful. So, when they do things like do nothing to cut the community in on that success - FtV 20 still being a limited print run, continuing to ignore the increasing cost of the market, ignoring real issues with organizers and now levying a 90 percent pay decrease without warming - it's more galling. To quote several others, when is that success going to trickle down to the people making it successful?
Funny how WotC can break promises when convenient for them, but assure us that promises they made in the past in a different era are totally unbreakable because they super-duper promissed.
They did so in the most condescending way imaginable. "Please understand, we're doing this for your benefit. When you grow up, you'll understand."
The company continues to tell us the game is growing each and every year more successful. So, when they do things like do nothing to cut the community in on that success - FtV 20 still being a limited print run, continuing to ignore the increasing cost of the market, ignoring real issues with organizers and now levying a 90 percent pay decrease without warming - it's more galling. To quote several others, when is that success going to trickle down to the people making it successful?
Funny how WotC can break promises when convenient for them, but assure us that promises they made in the past in a different era are totally unbreakable because they super-duper promissed.
"God's Beard!"
Member
People are always making fun of aggro players for being simple-minded, but I find the SOI draft werewolf decks are full of interesting decisions.
Also, I might go to a Game Day for the first time in over a year next week. My champion playmat from M15 is wearing out and I sold all my GP mats so I figure it's a good time to try and play for a new one.
Besides, it's a good practice since I haven't played paper magic in a couple months and I can test out my current build:
I took some of the ideas from the 8-2 Sultai decks and combined them with my Bgc Midrange deck since they're fundamentally similar strategies. I tested the deck with Silumgar since he's one of my favorite cards and there's a lot of planeswalkers running around, but I'm just not a huge fan of the mana. I don't want that many lands that don't tap for black.
Painful Truths is a bit ambitious since it regularly costs me 4 life, but it's so much better than Read the Bones.
Also, I might go to a Game Day for the first time in over a year next week. My champion playmat from M15 is wearing out and I sold all my GP mats so I figure it's a good time to try and play for a new one.
Besides, it's a good practice since I haven't played paper magic in a couple months and I can test out my current build:
I took some of the ideas from the 8-2 Sultai decks and combined them with my Bgc Midrange deck since they're fundamentally similar strategies. I tested the deck with Silumgar since he's one of my favorite cards and there's a lot of planeswalkers running around, but I'm just not a huge fan of the mana. I don't want that many lands that don't tap for black.
Painful Truths is a bit ambitious since it regularly costs me 4 life, but it's so much better than Read the Bones.
So you just came in here to say that you don't give a shit because it doesn't affect you?
FTV is supposed to be a limited print run- it's a bonus for stores.
charlequin
Banned
C'mon, don't be that guy.
I mean, I think we should hold WotC to a higher standard than "well, this thing they did won't literally alienate every person who plays the game." A significant portion (possibly not strictly a majority, but certainly over, say... 30%) of MTG revenue comes from people who play competitively, which means they need to offer a product that is appealing to compete with. If you make the top level of organized play unappealing and the best players quit to play some other game run by a company with more competent management, that trickles down pretty far, to the level of the thousands and thousands of players who buy cards primarily to play competitive constructed formats.
Like, if you want to look at an example of how much WotC cares about ensuring that competitive players don't quit, note that the things that have ever been considered existential threats (and drawn a response to match from senior leadership) were the ruined Standard formats of Urza's Saga and Mirrodin.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
We've had this discussion before. But yeah, Wizards has reasons for why they do everything. That doesn't mean they make sense. They have reasons why they cut Platinum payouts, too.
charlequin
Banned
More specifically, if those reasons have anything to do with the actual core game design of Magic, they're usually pretty good, while if they have anything to do with digital products, or they're passed down from Hasbro, they are almost universally awful.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Pretty much. The game is fantastic. If it wasn't nobody would care and they'd just move on. There are some mistakes here and there, but overall, the game is great. It's the business and digital sides in serious need of assistance. Their communication pipeline needs to be unilaterally relieved of duty, with maybe the exception of Helene. They are the absolute worst at community management and public-facing communication.
CeruleanSilver
Member
Salary for what? Playing a game? I understand that pro players are lightning rods for community interest and do promote the game, but personally I don't think providing salaries for a tiny number of players is something that's really that important to the game.
That's a hostile thing to say. I come in this thread from time to time because I like Magic it's a fun hobby. I was just expressing my view on this change, which yes, doesn't affect me.
I'm not unsympathetic to the timing of this change. Having a source of income removed out from under anyone really sucks. This situation is almost like getting switched to part-time. I hope these players find a fallback.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Why didn't they just make the system proportional. Instead of thresholds to reach a specific status, platinum are the 100 highest ranked players, gold 1000 etc. and mask it by saying there wasn't enough actual competition moreso than people formed clubs.
I don't think you realize how much money pro players spend traveling to attend professional events because they have to in order to keep earning Pro Points. Having money guaranteed for performance in a season helps to mitigate those costs. If the system is bad enough that Pro Players no longer want to invest in it because it becomes a gamble on a single tournament result then why should aspiring Pro Players do the same? It is bad for the health of the game.
But they only have to keep earning Pro Points because they want to get to that salary, right? Or what other benefits do they get that they can't reach by performing well in single high level tournament.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
Is that a strange concept?
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201906335]People are always making fun of aggro players for being simple-minded, but I find the SOI draft werewolf decks are full of interesting decisions.
Also, I might go to a Game Day for the first time in over a year next week. My champion playmat from M15 is wearing out and I sold all my GP mats so I figure it's a good time to try and play for a new one.
Besides, it's a good practice since I haven't played paper magic in a couple months and I can test out my current build:
I took some of the ideas from the 8-2 Sultai decks and combined them with my Bgc Midrange deck since they're fundamentally similar strategies. I tested the deck with Silumgar since he's one of my favorite cards and there's a lot of planeswalkers running around, but I'm just not a huge fan of the mana. I don't want that many lands that don't tap for black.
Painful Truths is a bit ambitious since it regularly costs me 4 life, but it's so much better than Read the Bones.[/QUOTE]
Lol, 4 damage for 3 cards is intense. You better have Kalitas in play. I had to redo my mana base since I had too many sources of colorless even though I cut down. I also had 6 5 drops, which felt like too much with all the 4s, I'm playing. What do you use to show off your deck lists? I'm tired of posting links that may seem shady.
Also, it seems like if you don't get a death cap cultivator, you kind of just lose to any deck that's super fast? I played against r/b vamps at states and got wrecked the first game.
Also, I might go to a Game Day for the first time in over a year next week. My champion playmat from M15 is wearing out and I sold all my GP mats so I figure it's a good time to try and play for a new one.
Besides, it's a good practice since I haven't played paper magic in a couple months and I can test out my current build:
I took some of the ideas from the 8-2 Sultai decks and combined them with my Bgc Midrange deck since they're fundamentally similar strategies. I tested the deck with Silumgar since he's one of my favorite cards and there's a lot of planeswalkers running around, but I'm just not a huge fan of the mana. I don't want that many lands that don't tap for black.
Painful Truths is a bit ambitious since it regularly costs me 4 life, but it's so much better than Read the Bones.[/QUOTE]
Lol, 4 damage for 3 cards is intense. You better have Kalitas in play. I had to redo my mana base since I had too many sources of colorless even though I cut down. I also had 6 5 drops, which felt like too much with all the 4s, I'm playing. What do you use to show off your deck lists? I'm tired of posting links that may seem shady.
Also, it seems like if you don't get a death cap cultivator, you kind of just lose to any deck that's super fast? I played against r/b vamps at states and got wrecked the first game.
Maybe this deck needs some hedron crawlers to get that guaranteed t3 mindwrack/thought-knot.
divisionbyzorro
Member
You know, MTGO might suck. But apparently Magic Duels has an exploit where "hackers" can set an arbitrarily high limit on X spells without needing to actually have that much mana (I don't know the details, but it's likely some sort of of Cheat Engine nonsense).
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