Support NeoGAF

[OnPoint]

• They pulled out the monetary support in the middle of a season. They could have announced it now and had it take affect in a year's time.

• They did so in the most condescending way imaginable. "Please understand, we're doing this for your benefit. When you grow up, you'll understand."

• The company continues to tell us the game is growing each and every year more successful. So, when they do things like do nothing to cut the community in on that success - FtV 20 still being a limited print run, continuing to ignore the increasing cost of the market, ignoring real issues with organizers and now levying a 90 percent pay decrease without warming - it's more galling. To quote several others, when is that success going to trickle down to the people making it successful?

• Funny how WotC can break promises when convenient for them, but assure us that promises they made in the past in a different era are totally unbreakable because they super-duper promissed.

This exactly.

FTV is supposed to be a limited print run- it's a bonus for stores.

While this is true it's also something they could and probably should change. It feels like an outdated procedure, especially how they've shown a willingness to change other cool stuff for the worse (RIP prerelease mythics). Demand for the FTV sets almost-certainly outstrips supply, especially since it's the only place some highly sought after cards across multiple formats see reprinting. They could definitely make a profit off of making them more readily available.

 

[pelicansurf]

Maybe this deck needs some hedron crawlers to get that guaranteed t3 mindwrack/thought-knot.

You'd think so, but no, it's best to roll the dice on lands. Top decking a Hedron crawler late game is nightmare fuel. The cultivator can at least be a 2/1 deathtouch / surprise mana.

 

[A Serious Man]

Tzu Ching Kuo weighs in, basically telling the Pros to get over it although he agrees that not paying out Platinum fees for next season is dodgy.

The one point that stuck out to me was his assertion that a constantly shifting parade of nobodies winning tournaments will serve WotC just as well as having recognizable names in the top of the rankings. This is flat-out wrong, sports always draw more interest when viewers have someone to root for or against. TV ratings bear this out every single time, the NBA's success is almost entirely built on this idea.

 

[kirblar]

That's a hostile thing to say. I come in this thread from time to time because I like Magic– it's a fun hobby. I was just expressing my view on this change, which yes, doesn't affect me.

I'm not unsympathetic to the timing of this change. Having a source of income removed out from under anyone really sucks. This situation is almost like getting switched to part-time. I hope these players find a fallback.

A number of players are encountering a very serious issue w being suddenly unpaid after a year of working to achieve that level, and your response was to talk about yourself and your friends and how its fine because it doesnt affect you? Think about that.

Re TZC both sides are wrong. You need a large pool of personalities. And you need external sponsors if you want to maintain this wothout the pro club. But when youve spent the last twenty years telling external sponsors to get fucked, dropping the club with no notice in favor of a gamble that people will pay attention to it like HS is hilariously misguided.

 

[phazedplasma]

i caught a comment on reddit saying wotc was working on a new digital version of magic?

That true?

 

[Firemind]

Tzu Ching Kuo weighs in, basically telling the Pros to get over it although he agrees that not paying out Platinum fees for next season is dodgy.

The one point that stuck out to me was his assertion that a constantly shifting parade of nobodies winning tournaments will serve WotC just as well as having recognizable names in the top of the rankings. This is flat-out wrong, sports always draw more interest when viewers have someone to root for or against. TV ratings bear this out every single time, the NBA's success is almost entirely built on this idea.

Wait what, Yuuya Watanabe is going to quit? Somewhat understandable since he lives in Japan where airfare is a huge expense, but

 

[charlequin]

i caught a comment on reddit saying wotc was working on a new digital version of magic?

That true?

Yes. We don't know much about it except it's brand new (not a direct upgrade of MTGO or Duels) and they started work on it in 2015, with a budget bump to pay for development.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Tzu Ching Kuo weighs in, basically telling the Pros to get over it although he agrees that not paying out Platinum fees for next season is dodgy.

The one point that stuck out to me was his assertion that a constantly shifting parade of nobodies winning tournaments will serve WotC just as well as having recognizable names in the top of the rankings. This is flat-out wrong, sports always draw more interest when viewers have someone to root for or against. TV ratings bear this out every single time, the NBA's success is almost entirely built on this idea.

It's extra funny when you consider the clip WoTC made for the PT pretty much heralding personalities, like turtlewald the first women to make top 8 and that collected dude that was in the last VSL.

 

[ultron87]

Lighter note: promo Spatial Contortion's art is amusingly horrific.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

where's the plus side to it? Technically he'd be taller, is that it?

 

[OnPoint]

where's the plus side to it? Technically he'd be taller, is that it?

Seems like they're emphasizing the -3 part of the +3/-3

 

[Yeef]

"For those without scruples, one visit to the Wonka Factory can kill." -Ugin

 

[ultron87]

It is like you always get stretched in some way, but if you have enough girth (ie enough toughness) it doesn't kill you so you just end up bigger but thinner.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Even Helene has fallen into the condescension communication trap:

@tweet_cool_man We decided to make the change to ultimately make Pro Magic better; hopefully, Pros and aspiring Pros will realize
— Helene Bergeot (@HeleneBergeot) April 24, 2016

It makes me laugh that Helene the PR Lady gets graded on a curve for typically displaying basic PR skills

 

[The Technomancer]

"For those without scruples, one visit to the Wonka Factory can kill." -Ugin

Oh man its hilarious you say that because last night I had a dream where I was Charlie from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Wonka loaded me and the other kids in as the crew of a hot air balloon to the moon as a publicity stunt and Mike Teevee was my lieutenant, and he launched us off inside like, a train station so we had to steer to the window and...

 

[WanderingWind]

It makes me laugh that Helene the PR Lady gets graded on a curve for typically displaying basic PR skills

I don't really get what you're saying here, tbh.

 

[A Serious Man]

The version of Naya Superfriends that I'm running feels pretty good. It can outgrind CoCo and control decks quickly fall behind on card advantage.

It consistently gets a third PW on the board on turn 5 and with the PWs, Tracker, and Oaths it turns into a machine that feels impossible to get ahead of. I'm not set on the top end PWs yet, I had just about everyone in there at some point but Jace and Sorin really don't mesh with what this deck wants to do.

Bonus Game: See if you can spot where I gave up playing control (which is terrible in the MTGO meta right now) and switched to this deck.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't really get what you're saying here, tbh.

Helene's PR skills are bog standard but people act like she's super good at her job, but what it actually is is that they're dumb enough to let people like Trick tell the audience they're stupid so she comes off better in comparison.

 

[WanderingWind]

Helene's PR skills are bog standard but people act like she's super good at her job, but what it actually is is that they're dumb enough to let people like Trick tell the audience they're stupid so she comes off better in comparison.

Ah. Eh, she's generally a bit better than average. She's always fighting an uphill battle with Trick (and formerly Worth before he got reined in) running around pissing people off.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Also, it seems like if you don't get a death cap cultivator, you kind of just lose to any deck that's super fast? I played against r/b vamps at states and got wrecked the first game.

There's a ton of spot removal and most aggro decks have a lot of trouble attacking through even one of my creatures.

Maybe this deck needs some hedron crawlers to get that guaranteed t3 mindwrack/thought-knot.

My deck was originally built around hedron crawler, it started out as mono black eldrazi. Hedron crawler is a really good mill hit and turn 3 seer is really good, but frankly playing 4 drops on turn 3 doesn't win games of Standard. That's why a lot of the Sultai lists from the PT don't play ramp at all, but still go up to 6 drops. Also, I've got a bit of PTSD from playing t3 mindwracks and losing to my own triggers.

Furthermore, I always have to side out the crawlers when I bring in the 4 sweepers against aggro and the extra ramp doesn't help me much vs control. So I just cut them.

I tried a grindier version for a while with more graveyard synergies, but Deathmist is a pretty mediocre card right now.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

When you manage to throw a game twice while your opponents topdecks, avacyn, avacyn, avacyn, secure the wastes. In short succession.

Like I had the entire turn played out and for some reason did something entirely different completely worse. Then I manage to turn the game around and when I go for the kill with Chandra +1 play Chandra +1 he plays secure exactly enough to live through my swing and attack for lethal the next turn.

I'm doing pretty good against aggro, KCommand means I'll always outvalue them and radiant flames and languish mainboard make short of their first boardstate if that's not enough Kalitas or under the floorboard helps me recover. Gryff's boon is a pain though.

Also bounce land kill creature EOT, flashback bounce land kill creature can be devastating.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Man, Blighted Fen is soooooo goood

 

[pelicansurf]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201936115]There's a ton of spot removal and most aggro decks have a lot of trouble attacking through even one of my creatures.



My deck was originally built around hedron crawler, it started out as mono black eldrazi. Hedron crawler is a really good mill hit and turn 3 seer is really good, but frankly playing 4 drops on turn 3 doesn't win games of Standard. That's why a lot of the Sultai lists from the PT don't play ramp at all, but still go up to 6 drops. Also, I've got a bit of PTSD from playing t3 mindwracks and losing to my own triggers.

Furthermore, I always have to side out the crawlers when I bring in the 4 sweepers against aggro and the extra ramp doesn't help me much vs control. So I just cut them.

I tried a grindier version for a while with more graveyard synergies, but Deathmist is a pretty mediocre card right now.[/QUOTE]
I just meant, potentially doing nothing for 3 turns.

After states, here's my list, looking sort of similar to yours as far as changes made, while retaining the grindier elements.
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/191077

 

["God's Beard!"]

Man, Reality Smasher is so good, though. I win such a big percentage of games because I played back to back smashers. It's Stormbreath Dragon!

I'm not a huge fan of Tireless Tracker generally in midrange, I dunno. Doesn't always trade well early, dies to everything on turn 3, takes forever to dodge your own languish, good value engine but still takes a turn to get going as a top deck. I can't think of many games where it's better value than a Read the Bones/Painful Truths.

I like Sylvan Advocate a lot and I agree that it's a great midrange card, but it can be a nonbo sometimes with blighted fen and gitrog. I think it's better in the Sultai decks than the Gitrog decks. Even then I go back and forth on it.

 

[pelicansurf]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201940283]Man, Reality Smasher is so good, though. I win such a big percentage of games because I played back to back smashers. It's Stormbreath Dragon!

I'm not a huge fan of Tireless Tracker generally in midrange, I dunno. Doesn't always trade well early, dies to everything on turn 3, takes forever to dodge your own languish, good value engine but still takes a turn to get going as a top deck. I can't think of many games where it's better value than a Read the Bones/Painful Truths.

I like Sylvan Advocate a lot and I agree that it's a great midrange card, but it can be a nonbo sometimes with blighted fen and gitrog. I think it's better in the Sultai decks than the Gitrog decks. Even then I go back and forth on it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I totally get it. I feel like it survives 5% of games, but when it does, it's gross. Maybe I'll sub him out and see how I feel about it. He has such great game against control decks.

However, reality smasher is the truth. I want to play more of them, but not sure what I'd cut.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I like Tireless Tracker best in the sideboard of ramp decks. Once they side out their cheap removal for obliterations and such, tracker into vegetables is some serious business.

More importantly, am I crazy or is this tournament really, really bad:

Registration: 11:00am - 12:00pm
Start Time: 12:00pm
Format: Standard
Entry: $10

Game Day Participation Promo (Incorrigible Youths) to first 24 people who sign up.


Each player receives three packs of Shadows Over Innistrad with entry.

Swiss rounds w/ cut to Top 8

1st place - Game Day Champion Playmat + $10 Store Credit

1st thru 8th - Alternate-art, full-art FOIL Anguished Unmaking

edit: missed the 3 packs thing, but that's still kinda weird. Why do it like that? Margins on packs can't be that high.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I feel like the effort involved in making Platinum over gold would actually cost you $11,000.00 and most of the time you probably fail to make Platinum because unlike most "e-sports" half of the game is just luck.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201941313]I like Tireless Tracker best in the sideboard of ramp decks. Once they side out their cheap removal for obliterations and such, tracker into vegetables is some serious business.

More importantly, am I crazy or is this tournament really, really bad:

Registration: 11:00am - 12:00pm
Start Time: 12:00pm
Format: Standard
Entry: $10

Game Day Participation Promo (Incorrigible Youths) to first 24 people who sign up.


Each player receives three packs of Shadows Over Innistrad with entry.

Swiss rounds w/ cut to Top 8

1st place - Game Day Champion Playmat + $10 Store Credit

1st thru 8th - Alternate-art, full-art FOIL Anguished Unmaking

edit: missed the 3 packs thing, but that's still kinda weird. Why do it like that? Margins on packs can't be that high.[/QUOTE]

With the three packs you break even but its really flat prizing, it sounds like.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah, I totally get it. I feel like it survives 5% of games, but when it does, it's gross. Maybe I'll sub him out and see how I feel about it. He has such great game against control decks.

However, reality smasher is the truth. I want to play more of them, but not sure what I'd cut.

That's precisely why I dislike Grasp of Darkness and Ultimate Price there's so much you want to remove with them that dodges them. So why play it over fiery impulse when they'll just have the same targets. Sylvan advocate is a pain to deal because of being a 4/5.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I feel like the effort involved in making Platinum over gold would actually cost you $11,000.00 and most of the time you probably fail to make Platinum because unlike most "e-sports" half of the game is just luck.

It's less than half, but it's enough to where you have to grind like crazy to even out the variance.

 

[Yeef]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201941313]I like Tireless Tracker best in the sideboard of ramp decks. Once they side out their cheap removal for obliterations and such, tracker into vegetables is some serious business.

More importantly, am I crazy or is this tournament really, really bad:

Registration: 11:00am - 12:00pm
Start Time: 12:00pm
Format: Standard
Entry: $10

Game Day Participation Promo (Incorrigible Youths) to first 24 people who sign up.


Each player receives three packs of Shadows Over Innistrad with entry.

Swiss rounds w/ cut to Top 8

1st place - Game Day Champion Playmat + $10 Store Credit

1st thru 8th - Alternate-art, full-art FOIL Anguished Unmaking

edit: missed the 3 packs thing, but that's still kinda weird. Why do it like that? Margins on packs can't be that high.[/QUOTE]What's really confusing is why they only give out 24 promo Yutes when the kit comes with 30...

 

[bigkrev]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201941313]I like Tireless Tracker best in the sideboard of ramp decks. Once they side out their cheap removal for obliterations and such, tracker into vegetables is some serious business.

More importantly, am I crazy or is this tournament really, really bad:

Registration: 11:00am - 12:00pm
Start Time: 12:00pm
Format: Standard
Entry: $10

Game Day Participation Promo (Incorrigible Youths) to first 24 people who sign up.


Each player receives three packs of Shadows Over Innistrad with entry.

Swiss rounds w/ cut to Top 8

1st place - Game Day Champion Playmat + $10 Store Credit

1st thru 8th - Alternate-art, full-art FOIL Anguished Unmaking

edit: missed the 3 packs thing, but that's still kinda weird. Why do it like that? Margins on packs can't be that high.[/QUOTE]
All arrows around her e give you packs as part of your entry into Yugioh tournaments. I've always been confused by that, but always assumed it was just part of the sanctioning rules for the game, especially because it's a game that targets younger than Magic

 

[pelicansurf]

That's precisely why I dislike Grasp of Darkness and Ultimate Price there's so much you want to remove with them that dodges them. So why play it over fiery impulse when they'll just have the same targets. Sylvan advocate is a pain to deal because of being a 4/5.

Resolved archangel of tithes = you lose the game for my deck. That's why I run price.

 

["God's Beard!"]

What's really confusing is why they only give out 24 promo Yutes when the kit comes with 30...

Door prizes maybe?

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's less than half, but it's enough to where you have to grind like crazy to even out the variance.

My take away on it is really just:

1) It's shitty that the players who grinded out the Pro Points aren't getting the expected return. I think most of us can agree on that.

2) I don't think it was ever healthy to encourage the grinder lifestyle; Magic is not a "job," even if you can be a "pro" player and make some money doing it. Consider that for every player making Platinum, there's lots of players who make nothing, and its an all-or-nothing gambit because cashing a GP barely pays anything, much less travel costs.

3) I don't think the whole Platinum thing made sense to begin with. It makes sense to qualify for the PT, and then try to top 8 that PT to qualify to win a huge prize at the big year-end Tournament. People don't like it because it hasn't previously been structured that way, even though it probably should be. The game is simply too much based on variance to encourage grinding.

4) I think a lot of the existing pros (and to a lesser extent the Hall of Famers) are overvaluing their own contribution to the game. Most of these guys are replaceable these days due to the sheer volume of play. As for the HOFers, Kibler, for example, contributes almost nothing these days and I'm guessing a large amount of the audience watching the streams don't even remember him being competitive (I don't). He doesn't prepare, he doesn't care about Magic, he just wants free trips. He says he'll take less of them. Honestly? Good. He doesn't need to be there if he doesn't care.

5) It doesn't make sense to me that WOTC doesn't produce ultra-rare PT promos that the players could sell to provide some added value. It costs them nothing to produce a couple of extra sheets of cards. Even if they have exclusive art, the rate WOTC pays on art isn't high to begin with.

 

[Yeef]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201945253]Door prizes maybe?[/QUOTE]My guess is that they just assumed they only got 24. Each kit comes with 3 packs of 10 of the uncommon promo and 1 pack of 8 of the rare promo. They probably just think that the 3 packs of the Yutes are 8 copies each instead of 10. Is this the store's first Game Day?

 

[Ashodin]

My game day will be small I bet so I'm a shoo in for the anguished unmaking promo

BUT I WANT THE FUCKIN MAT

 

[Firemind]

A lot of HoFers don't give a shit about the monetary rewards.

Like Chris Pikula tweeted https://mobile.twitter.com/meddlingmage/status/724328967835160576, it's a bit scary some pros consider Magic a real job. If you want to make more than minimum wage, play poker. You obviously enjoy playing Magic, but making it your livelihood is a bit dodgy unless you're a student.

 

[kirblar]

A lot of HoFers don't give a shit about the monetary rewards.

Like Chris Pikula tweeted https://mobile.twitter.com/meddlingmage/status/724328967835160576, it's a bit scary some pros consider Magic a real job. If you want to make more than minimum wage, play poker. You obviously enjoy playing Magic, but making it your livelihood is a bit dodgy unless you're a student.

Yeah, they've made it clear this is a weekend warrior thing. Some have refused to accept the memo.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yeah, they've made it clear this is a weekend warrior thing. Some have refused to accept the memo.

The prizing in tournaments has screamed "weekend warrior" basically forever. It just took this whole deal for some people to get it.

 

[Ashodin]

The way I see the "Pro Lifestyle" is basically this

• Are you rich?
• Are you good at maintaining your money?

If you are neither of these you cannot keep playing MTG at a pro level for a long time.

So the ideal run for an average pro aspirant? Make it far enough to make a mark, take a title, and go home. Or win the lottery and play MTG forever

 

[kirblar]

The prizing in tournaments has screamed "weekend warrior" basically forever. It just took this whole deal for some people to get it.

Because it was sold as something else for a long time. It's not till you get a job that you see the issue.

The prizes stagnating for the past decade also didn't help.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Always found it weird there aren't more actual pro player events, everything but the PT and world championship (?) is open for anyone. There's no stage they could even show their prowess, the standings are pointless just a number next to some players that comes up every now and then.

 

[Ashodin]

I figure I'll just stay around my area and win the big man tournaments like SCG Invitationals loooool

edit: aw shit Standard has arrived in Hearthstone? fuuu

 

[CeruleanSilver]

Salary for what? Playing a game?

Is that a strange concept?

Kinda. Oh sure there's obviously big money for the superstars in basketball, tennis, etc, but if someone told you they cleared $30K a year playing Monopoly, and needed that money to support their family, you'd probably think that wasn't a AAA solid plan for life. To me making money playing Magic is an oddity and a random perk, not a job.

kirblar can say I'm insensitive for expressing this opinion, but it just comes down to what's worthwhile to me. I don't have any ill will towards these pros, and it really is sucky to have income pulled out unexpectedly, but I just know that I won't ever watch a Pro tour. If these people can make a living playing Magic somehow, then great, but it's not something I feel needs to be supported by Wizards directly.

In thinking about it now, it's kind of like how I don't support local governments giving huge breaks to sports teams. I don't watch sports of any kind (probably not a shocking revelation) so I don't think taxes should fund sports stadiums, etc. I know there's a case to be made that those investments bring money and tourism to the city, but there's money enough out there for sport teams in ticket sales, branded gear, etc. I'd rather my taxes go towards things that otherwise don't have people paying for them directly like roads and water treatment. Running a sports team is a business and in my mind is best funded by the people that actually watch the sport, not by having money skimmed off of everyone.

Similarly I have no desire for Wizards to take money from every pack sold and fund people playing a game that I'll never ever watch as an e-sport. That's not how I enjoy Magic, and I get no value out of that. I'm sorry these guys lost some regular income, but jobs come and go– that's life as an adult.

 

[kirblar]

The PT is not like a big sports team. It's a huge driver of sales for a significant chunk of the playerbase who spends an awful lot of money on the game.

 

[A Serious Man]

Similarly I have no desire for Wizards to take money from every pack sold and fund people playing a game that I'll never ever watch as an e-sport. That's not how I enjoy Magic, and I get no value out of that. I'm sorry these guys lost some regular income, but jobs come and go– that's life as an adult.

The competitive circuit is how they advertise and drive sales of their latest set. It's fine that you just want WotC to only ever make cards for your kitchen table decks but that's not what grew the game into what it is and that's not how WotC convinces people to spend hundreds on cards every few months.

 

[CeruleanSilver]

The PT is not like a big sports team. It's a huge driver of sales for a significant chunk of the playerbase who spends an awful lot of money on the game.

That's probably true. But if the pros actually drive so much interest and sales for Magic, then I would assume Wizards would prioritize funding that. But we've just seen otherwise, so I imagine there's a clear business case for reducing pro payouts. It just comes down to whatever brings ROI and growth for Magic.

 

[bigkrev]

They are walking back on everything except Hall of Fame.
http://magic.wizards.com/articles/archive/news/announcement-concerning-changes-pro-club-2016-04-26

Since Sunday, when I announced changes to the Pro Club during the Top 8 of Pro Tour Shadows over Innistrad, we have received a lot of feedback—both from those directly affected by the changes as well as the community at large. Our goal was to make the World Championship more exciting and to increase the visibility of professional Magic. In our pursuit of these goals, we made a mistake. We unintentionally broke the trust of current Platinum players, those players who have been working to achieve that status, and the wider Magic community.

We are deeply sorry.

We have heard all of the feedback, and, as a result, are taking the following actions:

Platinum appearance fees will remain unchanged for the 2016-2017 season. This means that any Pro player who earns or has already earned Platinum status during the 2015-2016 season will receive all applicable appearance fees during the 2016-2017 season.
The increase to the World Championship prize pool will remain for 2016. That means the total prize pool will increase to $250,000 USD as announced, and the prize payout for the 24 players who qualify will be as follows:

Between now and Pro Tour Eldritch Moon in August, we will reassess plans for improving the Pro Tour and premier play. In doing so, we will consult with members of the professional Magic community and take their further feedback into consideration.
We care deeply about Magic, the community, and pro players, and we listen to our community. The discussion since Sunday has been healthy and is helping us make Magic and the Pro Tour the best it can be. We appreciate the passion the Magic community displayed on this issue.

We also fully understand the impact our decision had on the level of trust both pro players and the Magic community have in us, and we will continue to work hard to earn that trust back.

Thank you,

Hélène Bergeot

Director of Global Organized Play

They promise that they will consult with Pros for future changes, and that we will hear more at the next PT

 

[SigmasonicX]

Many of you guys have brought up the point that they never should have made Magic pros a thing in the first place, and the new payout system reflects that, but the question is, what incentive is there to actually attend a Pro Tour now? Only a few people will win a decent amount of money (and it's still not much), but to fly out to the various places they are being held and pay for hotels and such, you have to invest a lot of money. My understanding is that in the past, you had a reasonable expectation of coming out even or at least not losing too much, but now you're guaranteed to lose a lot of money unless you reach top rankings.

Should we expect a majority of players at a Pro Tour to be locals now?

EDIT: Well, I guess that doesn't apply now, but I suppose I'll still ask if that's what was going to happen.