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[divisionbyzorro]

Well, Overwatch is trying to hit from as many different angles as possible, so it's not too crazy that there might be an overlap.

EDIT: Also, this is one of the best (most entertaining) matches of Magic I've seen in a very, very long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbC7qptrMAk

 

[Ashodin]

I think an Indian man would have been more interesting

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm pretty sure he just showed up to a store and said "how do I play" and then won a box.

The funny thing is that you're not too far off. The old rainbow bogles list I paraded around is something I just made up not really knowing anything about modern. I'd never watched a game of modern before, so I started showing up to a local proxy tournament in a shed. First I made up a random deck based off cards I liked by just googling bant cards(which led to me accidentally building mythic conscription not knowing it was an established standard deck), which did ok. Then looked at one top 8 list, and I printed out bogles and sleeved up on location. I got 2nd place and some packs and decided I liked it because I didn't have to know what my opponent was doing to win, so then I went on cardkingdom and just typed in effects I wanted in the advanced search for hours until I came up with the rainbow list. I learned a lot by pretending I knew how modern worked and just sitting back with an uninteractive deck talking with the people in that shed(there's also a funny story involving dropping keys in a port-a-potty, but that's for another day).

Months later after deciding to join modern I went back and ordered the whole deck for like 250 bucks.

Then I showed up with it to the LGS win a box as my first modern sanctioned tournament and won two weeks in a row. Basically every deck I played against was the first time I had ever seen the cards. Fuck if I knew what creatures were in a pod deck and the only thing I knew about the Scapeshift deck I played in the finals the first time was that I overheard some dude talking about keeping your lifetotal above 18 at the shed tournaments. I made up a bunch of justifications about beating Treasure Cruise Delver and such, but the reality was that I just liked the idea of playing 5 colors and wasn't very confident in playing Modern and having to make decisions.

I think these sort of experiences really shaped the type of player I am. Every time I see someone's losing reaction to a card I chose, it makes me want to play more. The sense of discovery and creativity I get from digging through the thousands of cards in Magic's history and then winning with my picks is the reason I play magic(and why limited is the best). Even back at that first FNM with my mill deck, I didn't win the tournament but I did beat the best player in the shop and that's what really got me going. And recently, doing well at both of the pptqs I entered with my sultai eldrazi deck after mediocre results with relatively stock Jeskai Black really reinforced that that's the player I want to be.

Sorry I wound up rambling a bit lol

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I think an Indian man would have been more interesting

 

[kirblar]

The issue with traditional Steampunk and Magic is that a) it's been done and b) it's a cliche, not a trope.

A) isn't a problem. We just had the Abzan, and we're getting Kaladesh. Both are based on India.

B) is a problem, and it's the reason they're not going to do a plane that way. The issue with doing a traditional steampunk plane is that it's going to look like what every other creator/company/Becky Lynch does. They need it to stand out and be distinct as readily identifiable as Magic and as its own plane- this is why the German words/towns and Avacyn symbols - it makes it very easy to keep it distinct in a world full of horror tropes.

Innistrad also has the Victorian/American clothing choices, which actually do draw from Steampunk for the Ghostbusters homage cards, and would be another reason not to do a traditional steampunk plane- you want to make the planes visually distinct and obvious- the Star Wars rule coming into play.

I don't think I'd call the request necessarily racist, but I would call it basic.

 

[SigmasonicX]

When Saheeli was first revealed, I thought the similarities to Symmettra from Overwatch was an interesting coincidence. They feel like alternate interpretations of the same character (though, that may change when we get to know more about Saheeli). I don't know much about Indian culture, so I'm not sure if they're both evoking something from a shared source or if it's pure coincidence.

Eh, other than them both being intended to be a "pretty Indian woman", I don't think there's much of a similarity.

I think an Indian man would have been more interesting

Considering how bad female leads have it in mainstream Indian films*--where acting is often such a low priority that they bring in Brazilian models to play the part who can't speak the relevant language, dub over them, and just say they're Indian--I'm more than fine with an Indian woman being represented.

* = AFAIK, this only really applies to Hindi films, and there have been some recent big Hindi films that gave meaty roles to female leads, but it's a trend.

 

[kirblar]

Eh, other than them both being intended to be a "pretty Indian woman", I don't think there's much of a similarity.


Considering how bad female leads have it in mainstream Indian films*--where acting is often such a low priority that they bring in Brazilian models to play the part who can't speak the relevant language, dub over them, and just say they're Indian--I'm more than fine with an Indian woman being represented.

* = AFAIK, this only really applies to Hindi films, and there have been some recent big Hindi films that gave meaty roles to female leads, but it's a trend.

The pose and spiral/crystal in their hands suggest something else is acting as a reference for both of them.

Picking a woman in the face of the known gender issues over there is very unlikely to have been an accident.

 

[Ashodin]

I just think when people include Indian culture into their games the knee-jerk addition response is "dancing female"

Feels stereotypical to me imo.

I like how Saheeli isn't overly rounded like Symmetra though. The proportions are more realistic.

 

[kirblar]

I don't see where dancing is involved w/ either of them?

 

[Ashodin]

I don't see where dancing is involved w/ either of them?

Sorry, Symmetra looks like she's about to bust a move to me haha

 

[SigmasonicX]

The pose and spiral/crystal in their hands suggest something else is acting as a reference for both of them.

Now that you mention it, it may be evoking how depictions of gods often show them with objects floating above their open palms.

And I'll only get upset about the dancing cliche if they actually use it.

 

[Ashodin]

Now that you mention it, it may be evoking how depictions of gods often show them with objects floating above their open palms.

And I'll only get upset about the dancing cliche if they actually use it.

Many eye rolls will be had

 

[The Technomancer]

That specific hand pose looks like it might be drawing from something, but I can't tell you what it is.

Kirblar is spot on about the larger visual issues with steampunk as well. And yeah, Innistrad (especially the original) gave me the mix of victorian and new england vibes I never knew I badly wanted, its part of why the plane is so great

 

[Yeef]

Well, Overwatch is trying to hit from as many different angles as possible, so it's not too crazy that there might be an overlap.

EDIT: Also, this is one of the best (most entertaining) matches of Magic I've seen in a very, very long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbC7qptrMAk

Game 3 was great, but the first two games were one-sided snooze fests.

 

[Xis]

I wonder; is the fact that steampunk implies a technology level sufficient for firearms is another strike against it?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I wonder; is the fact that steampunk implies a technology level sufficient for firearms is another strike against it?

just like confederate and union uniforms on innistrad? And we already have steampunk with Izzet.

 

[Infinite Stars]

The issue with traditional Steampunk and Magic is that a) it's been done and b) it's a cliche, not a trope.

A) isn't a problem. We just had the Abzan, and we're getting Kaladesh. Both are based on India.

B) is a problem, and it's the reason they're not going to do a plane that way. The issue with doing a traditional steampunk plane is that it's going to look like what every other creator/company/Becky Lynch does. They need it to stand out and be distinct as readily identifiable as Magic and as its own plane- this is why the German words/towns and Avacyn symbols - it makes it very easy to keep it distinct in a world full of horror tropes.

Innistrad also has the Victorian/American clothing choices, which actually do draw from Steampunk for the Ghostbusters homage cards, and would be another reason not to do a traditional steampunk plane- you want to make the planes visually distinct and obvious- the Star Wars rule coming into play.

I don't think I'd call the request necessarily racist, but I would call it basic.

Well said, but i thought the Abzan were based upon the Persian Empires, not India, seeing as there's a town in Iran called Abzan.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Well said, but i thought the Abzan were based upon the Persian Empires, not India, seeing as there's a town in Iran called Abzan.

India's a big place filled with lots of different regions, especially when you compare north of the Himalayas to south of it. There's a lot of Persian influence up north. But yeah, I don't think they were going for India in particular with Abzan.

 

[charlequin]

I've been to germany and grew up in a culturally fraternal space and I never drew that connection. Really? To me everything cried victorian england / american colonies.

It's a weird melange of these three sources because vampires are popularly associated with Germanic or Balkan regions, stuff like Frankenstein, Jekyll and Hyde, etc. are taken from heavily English literature, and the werewolf has a strong European connection but is heavily adopted into American folklore. You're definitely right in seeing all three in the Innistrad worldbuilding.

If people keep misusing the word "racist" like this, it truly will have lost all meaning.

He literally says that it can't be "real" steampunk because it's not in one of two specifically white milieus, one of which isn't even really associated with steampunk. Gimme a fucking break.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I've drafted a braids deck like for the fifth time.

 

[kirblar]

He literally says that it can't be "real" steampunk because it's not in one of two specifically white milieus, one of which isn't even really associated with steampunk. Gimme a fucking break.

It's literally the thing that comes to mind when you say Steampunk tho- top hats, monocles, gears everywhere. There isn't some "other" Steampunk variant out there in the public consciousness.

This is why MTG doing it straight up would be a mistake, but he's not creative enough to see that.

 

[Angry Grimace]

When Saheeli was first revealed, I thought the similarities to Symmettra from Overwatch was an interesting coincidence. They feel like alternate interpretations of the same character (though, that may change when we get to know more about Saheeli). I don't know much about Indian culture, so I'm not sure if they're both evoking something from a shared source or if it's pure coincidence.

It's just "attractive Indian woman."

You have guys like me. I swear to god I'm a genuine steampunk hipster, its the one thing I legitimately say "I was into it before being cool ruined it"

Fucking

goggles

lol

 

[Joe Molotov]

Nice Chandra cosplay.

 

[charlequin]

It's literally the thing that comes to mind when you say Steampunk tho- top hats, monocles, gears everywhere. There isn't some "other" Steampunk variant out there in the public consciousness.

I don't think I'd call the request necessarily racist, but I would call it basic.

Yeah upon consideration I think I will accept "could be racist or not, but definitely basic as hell" as a diagnosis.

You make a really good point about the Ghostbusters stuff in Innistrad btw, and I think that's more broadly applicable to MTG worldbuilding -- a setting that's themed as "XYZ World" is going to veer away from cliches of XYZ so it can stand out as its own thing, while one themed as something else can bend towards those cliches because they're a way of adding unique texture with familiar elements. Both Izzet and Innistrad blue are more "standard" steampunk than Kaladesh will be.

Well said, but i thought the Abzan were based upon the Persian Empires, not India, seeing as there's a town in Iran called Abzan.

Yeah I read Abzan as Persian-influenced, Sultai as a mixture of Indian and Thai influences, though all five clans draw across cultural lines of the Asian cultures they sample from.

 

[Ashodin]

I really like the different feel of the clans, they feel unique yet bizarrely familiar.

 

[charlequin]

I really like the different feel of the clans, they feel unique yet bizarrely familiar.

The clans are the first time they used the "reminiscent of a different real-world culture" trick for all the factions in a setting. (Alara did it, but really just for Bant and Naya.)

 

[Ashodin]

I wasn't around for Khans or Alara block's beginning, so I don't have as an attachment to them as I do the Ravnica guilds, however.

Maybe next faction block I'll get in on it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The clans are the first time they used the "reminiscent of a different real-world culture" trick for all the factions in a setting. (Alara did it, but really just for Bant and Naya.)

theros, Or do you mean factions as in colour combinations?

 

[kirblar]

The clans are the first time they used the "reminiscent of a different real-world culture" trick for all the factions in a setting. (Alara did it, but really just for Bant and Naya.)

I kind of expect the next Shard block to be a new place. Alara's a really rough setting to use now.

 

[Xis]

I wasn't around for Khans or Alara block's beginning, so I don't have as an attachment to them as I do the Ravnica guilds, however.

The three-color shards and wedges don't have nearly as sharp a definition as the two-color guilds. The guilds embody their combination of colors (everything about Simic, from the mechanics, to their motives, to the art, scream blue-green). I like the clans a lot, but they are influenced by their colors, not defined by them. I think the more elemental focus of the guilds makes them easier to attach to and identify with.

 

[The Technomancer]

I kind of expect the next Shard block to be a new place. Alara's a really rough setting to use now.

They would have to. How the hell would they make Grixis and Jund work by modern worldbuilding standards?

 

[Santiako]

I think they would have to go back to Alara if they do another shard block if only because the shard names are so ingrained to the mtg culture now. They'll probably retcon the conflux somehow.

 

[Ashodin]

Look at it from an outside perspective Alara Reborn was a weird ass set

 

[charlequin]

theros, Or do you mean factions as in colour combinations?

Yeah as in color combinations (or in-setting faction stuff like Mirrans vs. Phyrexians.) Theros draws on that material but it doesn't really do much to distinguish different groups within the plane by using different real-world influences. (Sparta and Athens do not count, lol.)

I kind of expect the next Shard block to be a new place. Alara's a really rough setting to use now.

Yeah, it's a casualty of problematic world/mechanic design and being in the era where they blew up each plane when they were done with it and having their factions be so connected to place that it's hard to define them without that place boundary.

I feel like a return to Alara will probably eventually be in the cards, but the thing to do with it now is a general-purpose gold set like Invasion, which I think you can get away with more easily in a two-blocks-two-sets world.

The real trouble is how to handle the factioning in the new plane when they do that. We saw with DTK how awkward it could be trying to apply new different names to existing color groups.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Alara remains one of my favourite planes, Naya was totally boring but Bant really clicked with me.

The detachment of the planes was a bit crass. Grizis seemed an entirely different realm than Bant and while that might have been the idea. It'd have been better to have all planes have the same baseline with the lack of certain mana making them evolve like they are australia.

So Nacatl for instance should have been anywhere but in Grixis and Jund.

 

[Firemind]

I want Alara 2.0 just for more Swanland art.

Spoiler

I also thought it was a totally rad limited and constructed block.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I was gonna say that Dragons of Tarkir was the lamest set in memory, but then I remembered BFZ.

 

[Crocodile]

To return a bit to the previous conversation (sorry) but my life experiences both online and in real life tell me that people usually don't deserve the benefit of the doubt in regards to "is this racism or not". However that's because I recognize it as a spectrum (which it is) not a binary. It doesn't automatically make them a terrible human being but it needs to be called out - its bad for what I would hope are obvious reasons. "Real" steampunk is just an eye-roll worthy sentiment regardless of its source. As I already acknowledged, there can be alternate explanations (the poster has the imagination of a fruit fly and can't imagine any deviation to Victorian steampunk even though plenty exist and doesn't realize why it would be a waste of WOTC's time to follow it to a T or that they forgot the Izzet are a thing) and of course if I could I would speak to them and try to open a productive dialogue before anything else to ascertain why they feel that way (assuming they didn't start off with something incredibly inflammatory). That doesn't mean I haven't "seen this shit" a million times in my life or that its not worth calling out irregardless if it's ignorance instead of malice, etc.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";205523973]

[/QUOTE]

This would actually be a cool Magic card. I mean cards like it already kind of exist but I like the flavor here.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

pariah

 

[Santiako]

Or Palisade Giant more recently.

Pariah + Cho-Manno was the shit back in the day.

 

[Ashodin]

Alara remains one of my favourite planes, Naya was totally boring but Bant really clicked with me.

The detachment of the planes was a bit crass. Grizis seemed an entirely different realm than Bant and while that might have been the idea. It'd have been better to have all planes have the same baseline with the lack of certain mana making them evolve like they are australia.

So Nacatl for instance should have been anywhere but in Grixis and Jund.

Bant is my ideal plane to visit. Funnily enough it's just a shard, but I would totally go there and earn some sigils brehs

Or Palisade Giant more recently.

Pariah + Cho-Manno was the shit back in the day.

The oft-requested, never-delivered, once-in-a-lifetime dual wield shield depicted in art.

This is why MTG is awesome.

 

[Crocodile]

pariah

Well yes, that's what I mean this sort of card already kind of exists. It's more the whole dummy aspect of it. As I said, its the flavor that's good here rather than the actual card.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Or Palisade Giant more recently.

Pariah + Cho-Manno was the shit back in the day.

 

[The Technomancer]

Look at it from an outside perspective Alara Reborn was a weird ass set

Alara Reborn gets credit for having a lot of cards people like, but as an actual set its a genuine hot mess. Like, I'm glad Alara exists for learning purposes, but basically every lesson from that block was on what not to do

 

[Firemind]

Alara Reborn gets credit for having a lot of cards people like, but as an actual set its a genuine hot mess. Like, I'm glad Alara exists for learning purposes, but basically every lesson from that block was on what not to do

It has the coolest Magic card of all time tho

 

[Yeef]

I think we'll go back to Alara. From the way things are described in Meren's story, it seems like after the conflux each shard just became a different region of the plane. Like, if you're in Grixis you can just walk to Bant given enough time.

 

[El Topo]

I liked Alara, if only because it was such a mess to draft.

 

[Jhriad]

Seems like there's a lot of misunderstanding about the real world style guide inspirations of the various clans of Tarkir. If you look at the Abzan style (and Khans block as a whole) it's pretty obvious that they specifically avoided the Indian Subcontinent as well as China for the themes of the Abzan and the other clans. Abzan specifically draws from Persian styles of architecture and military dress (there's essentially no Indian themes here that I've seen), Sultai is pretty obviously drawn from Khmer (Cambodia) style dress as well as architecture (look at the garb worn by Tasigur as well as the buildings in Opulent Palace for good examples), Jeskai is drawn from the Tibetan Plateau, Mardu is the Mongolian clan, and while I'm not particularly clear on Temur, it's probably based on some culture in North Asia (it makes me think of Yakutsk or something along those lines). The tri-color lands in general are actually pretty good at depicting these cultural themes.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Going through alara reborn right now and wish it was still modern beta

Wanna make a thopter sword deck with this and clues.

 

[kirblar]

Seems like there's a lot of misunderstanding about the real world style guide inspirations of the various clans of Tarkir. If you look at the Abzan style (and Khans block as a whole) it's pretty obvious that they specifically avoided the Indian Subcontinent as well as China for the themes of the Abzan and the other clans. Abzan specifically draws from Persian styles of architecture and military dress, Sultai is pretty obviously drawn from Khmer style dress as well as architecture (look at the garb worn by Tasigur as well as the buildings in Opulent Palace for good examples), Jeskai is drawn from the Tibetan Plateau, Mardu is the Mongolian clan, and while I'm not particularly clear on Temur, it's probably based on some culture in North Asia (it makes me think of Yakutsk or something along those lines). The tri-color lands in general are actually pretty good at depicting these cultural themes.

Temur is some part of Russia.