Giant Panda
Member
I have my doubts about delirium, but otherwise the set looks good.
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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
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naw man OG Ravnica is the GOAT.
case in point p1p1:
in all my ravnica drafting, I've never actually seen a hex before.
Standard I have no clue, but when I look at limited I'm not seeing enough cards to warrant wanting to adjust my deck for it. The power of delerium enabled needs to be very high if jump hoops for it.it could be that the Commons are designed tojst kind of enable it for you anyways with minimal effort.
Reading the design process, I do think they ended up in the right spot and I adore graveyard play.
I've had playtest games where my first 4 cards enabled it (soi limited)
charlequin
Banned
That was awkwardly phrased. I meant that as a hypothetical "even if." I think the execution is better in a few places in RTR (especially fixing some of the guilds and mechanics that didn't work out the first time) but worse in many others. Even if RTR was noticeably better executed than it was I think it still would've fallen kind of flat.
I think if (when) they do a third Ravnica block, they really need to mix the format up a lot more, even if it means cutting out a bunch of stuff people like about the previous iterations.
Lived the dream in this MTGO sealed pptq- first time I've ever expedited a bane of bala ged.
Link to this deck? Wondering if I should have picked up more. I had 2 Chandras from packs and assumed most decks wouldn't run 3 - 4 of her given her cost. A third might be necessary though.
Not to frown on your fun, but playtesting limited without most of the commons- the most important cards for limited- spoiled seems a bit dodgy at best.
Link to this deck? Wondering if I should have picked up more. I had 2 Chandras from packs and assumed most decks wouldn't run 3 - 4 of her given her cost. A third might be necessary though.
Not to frown on your fun, but playtesting limited without most of the commons- the most important cards for limited- spoiled seems a bit dodgy at best.
Even though it was predictable, I thought RTR and GTC were both fantastic. Gatecrash limited got old pretty quickly because it was so aggressive, but both had lots of sweet constructed and limited cards.
Dragon's Maze had potential, but there was too much to do and not a lot of space to do it. If ever there was a set that needed to avoid filler, DGM was it. Unfortunately, it ended up being filled with cards like Goblin Test Pilot, Mindstatic and Trait Doctoring*. The clue stones also lots of useful space and probably could have been scrapped and compressed to a set of generic mana fixers.
*I'm still convinced that Trait Doctoring was busted at some point during development and was a last-minute change. I'm curious to find out what it originally did.
Dragon's Maze had potential, but there was too much to do and not a lot of space to do it. If ever there was a set that needed to avoid filler, DGM was it. Unfortunately, it ended up being filled with cards like Goblin Test Pilot, Mindstatic and Trait Doctoring*. The clue stones also lots of useful space and probably could have been scrapped and compressed to a set of generic mana fixers.
*I'm still convinced that Trait Doctoring was busted at some point during development and was a last-minute change. I'm curious to find out what it originally did.
fuuuuuuck it's $20
Happened 3 weeks ago, I grabbed the wrong walker at the time.
charlequin
Banned
They set it up with an impossible set of expectations to meet, but then they also made a bunch of unforced errors as well, like the bizarre ruinous choices made about the legend cycle, or the call to weigh it down with some of the worst possible manafixing. It's definitely a big drag on the quality of the block.
Surprised more people haven't argued with me about SOM being the best return block so far, I thought we had a lot of haters in here.
People should have been picking her up at $10 the second it became clear she was the real thing in order to arbitrage the everyone-thinks-chandra-will-always-be-bad price penalty.
I remember Hex being an unplayable back in the day....
SigmasonicX
Member
I'm trying to think of how they could do Return to Return to Ravnica in two sets, given that:
1. You need to represent all 10 guilds.
2. All guilds need to be presented roughly equally.
Dividing the guilds between sets presents the weakness that it's difficult to depict the story actually developing, unless it's really the case that only half of the guilds are involved in the first part of the story and half in the second.
The best solution I can come up with is to lower the multicolor theme and not actually tie keywords to each guild. All 10 guilds can appear in each set, and there are two-color cards for every pair, but each guild only gets, like, 2 cards at uncommon (20 two-color uncommons), 1 each at rare, and 3 each at common. There can be more hybrid and off-color ability activation cards, of course. For the keywords, you could have it so that, say, Golgari and Dimir both share a graveyard-based mechanic, but the former uses it on creatures and the latter on instants and sorceries.
They are worth less than any other language I believe- maybe something like 95% of the English version. They are not in the Russian/Japanese category for pimp value
http://blog.mtgprice.com/2014/12/16/foreign-language-cards-for-dummies/ here is an article about foreign language values.
Yes, me. I felt that the juxtaposition of Metalcraft and Infect didn't really work out in practice, because there's always that possibility of getting royally screwed when forcing Infect, which didn't really work with creatures that didn't have Infect.
As for RTR, I feel that it wouldn't be received as badly as it did if they didn't impose the reverse drafting rule. DGM favoured guilds that were in GC, which wouldn't have happened if it was in the chronological order. That way, cards in DGM would have been more balanced, since it would have rewarded players who stuck to a guild when all guilds have been equally available.
Traditional Chinese cares are worth more since they're printed less than Simplified Chinese cards
divisionbyzorro
Member
Yeah, DGM forced you to draft gold cards without knowing what was really open.
Fuse was a bad mechanic in retrospect. The split cards should have been hedge picks - playable in either color. But with Fuse, you were highly incentivized to treat them as gold instead of hybrid, which hurt their flexibility.
Infinite Stars
Member
Someone on Reddit bounced around the idea of Ravnica 3 having the guilds fighting in full on war, and temporary tri-groups forming. His idea had Golgari/Selesyna, Boros/Azorious, Orzhov/Dimir, Simic/Izzet, and Gruul/Rakdos as the Tri-groups in the first set.
Otherwise, I don't see a way to easily do all guilds in one set, because GTC/RTR were double large sets.
Story isn't an issue. Just like in RTR block, you can represent non-present guilds on mono-color cards in names, art and flavor text.
Looking through the lens that they've used on the two most recent return sets, Ravnica's only definite mechanical identity is multicolor-focus and 10-card cycles. Each guild has their own flavor-based philosophy, but there's no expectation for specific mechanics to return.
In terms of block structure, they could do something like they've been doing in the past; have the last set in the block drafted alone. So the first draft could be RTRTR x3 and the second could be AfterGate x3 with the two never being drafted together, but stil lhaving mechanical hooks to feel connected and play well together in standard. The problem with that is that if your favorite guild is in one set, you don't get to draft it in both seasons.
Another way to go is to just have all 10 guilds represented in each set, but decrease the overall as-fan of gold cards and increase the as-fan of things like hybrid, off-color activations/bonuses (like the Dauntless River Marshall cycles) and split cards. The problem here is that gold is basically Ravnica's identity, so reducing it might cause issues with its broad appeal.
One other thing that comes to mind is the way they used Morph in Khans to make the multicolor cards easier to play. With the Double-Face Card technology, they could do something similar. Have cards that can be played with a mono-colored cost, but also played transformed for a multicolor cost, or vice versa. Something like:
Ozhov Cleric WB
Enlist W (You may cast this for its enlist cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield transformed).
Lifelink
2/2
--
Orzhov Initiate
Creature
WB: Transform ~.
2/1
charlequin
Banned
A few options that occur to me:
- Do two large sets, dial down the total amount of gold cards in both a little bit, and split the guilds 5/5. In the first set, have five guilds with major focus, including gold cards and legends, and have the other five represented with minor focus in the form of hybrid cards; then in the second set, swap. Instead of one mechanic for each guild, do one mechanic either for each monocolor or for each two-guild combo; either way these mechanics stretch through both sets, and then there's one non-guild mechanic unique to each set.
- Mix up the sets through the year; instead of doing two Ravnicas right in a row, do on-off-on-off. Do a story about Ravnica having some kind of cross-plane intrigue with two other planes; the first block would take place on plane #1 and Ravnica focusing on the half of the guilds that side with that plane; the second block would take place on plane #2 and involve the other five guilds. You'd never draft all the guilds together, you'd just have block one where the guild mechanics stretch over two sets and block two where the other ones do the same.
- Make a block about the guild/guildless war; have the block feature a lot more monocolor cards than normal, and have most of the "multicolor" representation be hybrid cards and cards with cross-color activations, with maybe just a few gold cards per guild at rare and mythic. Still split guilds 5/5. Don't do individual guild mechanics at all; have a couple mechanics representing the guildless, and in each set have two shared mechanics for all the guilds that manifest differently per guild.
Basically the most important thing about all these ideas is that they mean you never have to squeeze 11+ distinct mechanics into one 2-set block.
Sorry, I know what play testing gets inffered as.
It's just me and a buddy playing with cards. I believe a third of the Commons are shown now and that's only BC of the leak. Without the leak we wouldn't have even bothered.
I'm newer to magic so making mistakes learning delirium is much nicer on my ego than at the prerelease or drafts
Anyways. It's been a shit load of fun playing magic. Whether it's proxies at a kitchen table without the Commons or not
How do you tell the difference between a Simplified and a Traditional booster? I'm asking because I just wanted pick up a couple of boosters while I was here in China.
Not worth bothering with them. Three old Traditional style people liked because it looked more fluid, not as boxy, but sometime ago they switched it up and they became like the Simplified.
Traditional is printed less, but it is still more than Korean and Russian, so doesn't have that going for it either.
Personally I like them since I learned Chinese, and I would prefer Traditional, but I don't really think it is worth the effort. I can get Japanese easy and can get Simplified really easy, so would rather go with those.
If you're in Mainland China, expect to only find simplified, Hong Kong will probably have Traditional, but Taiwan is the main place for them.
One of the easiest ways is learning the main radicals that switch, for example 谁 is simplified form of 誰。 The radical on the left has more strokes, so if you see the first one that looks like an i you have simplified. There is a bunch. Really i would just look up current packs for both and see what stands out.
Simplified Chinese on the left and Traditional Chinese on the right.
Or, if you have dragon cards:
Now which one looks radder?
Remembrance
Member
On the other hand, which card do you have to squint just to read there.
Random observation: the creature type lines use two different terms for "wizard."
Random observation: the creature type lines use two different terms for "wizard."
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They'll just do 2 large sets. It's a waste of time to do anything else because saying "we're going to Ravnica but its DIFFFFFFERENT" isn't a thing that makes sense to do. People want Ravnica to feel like Ravnica.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'd just straight cut the guilds and use the setting for a new theme, but I don't think people would be ok with that.
We've had the guilds twice now, 3 times if you count DTK Dragons. I have zero faith Wizards fill finally make decent mechanics for any of the guilds having only had sucky ones before.
All of your opinions are different than the consensus. Most people would think Ravnica without the guilds is pointless. Lots of the guild mechanics are super popular, like Convoke and Overload.
Remembrance
Member
The one thing I want out of Return to Ravnica Again is a guild-themed Terminate reprint.
It will never happen.
It will never happen.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Very good card, plays really well with Prairie Stream. It's actually pretty good with Thing in the Ice, really. There's a reasonable possibility you won't actually hit your own with it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I still want the guilds in Ravnica, but I'm uncertain if "ten two color pairs on equal footing with a billion cycles" is going to do it for me a third time around. if they did, I'd want it to be several more years off
SigmasonicX
Member
Very good card, plays really well with Prairie Stream. It's actually pretty good with Thing in the Ice, really. There's a reasonable possibility you won't actually hit your own with it.
You mean if you're playing a multicolor deck with Thing in the Ice and have 3 Islands but 4 lands total? Also, the card reminds me of this:
I wonder if this will be a cycle. Also, tentacled thing in the art, but it looks like it's just a big octopus.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You mean if you're playing a multicolor deck with Thing in the Ice and have 3 Islands but 4 lands total? Also, the card reminds me of this:
I wonder if this will be a cycle.
Yeah, I mean less than 50% of your lands are probably actual Islands. I mean, its potentially dubious, but a deck with Thing in the Ice, Jace, this thing, Reflector Mage has the potential to be ANNOYING.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Ravnica is a unique setting, not outside of MTG but it is Coruscant and the like basically. Can't tell me guilds is the only thing Wizards can come up with within it. There's a couple popular guild mechanics but there's a lot of of bad ones, for every popular one there's at least one unpopular.
Heck Dimir was so bad in RTR that at the prerelease of DGM people literally groaned at the prospect of getting a Dimir pack, which I got.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Also, I'm selling the following:
If anyone's interested, can PM me, I'll try to cut a deal, although most of this stuff is concurrently on eBay. Not all of them are totally mint fresh, but I don't have anything that's less than LP other than like 1 Karplusian Forest that's straight up damaged (I bought it that way lol). I'm in the US, so international stuff is probably too expensive since we're not talking Black Lotuses or anything.
The problem with the guilds is mostly that the mechanics are kind of lame. They'd have to just cut the individual guild mechanic thing entirely I'd imagine. They could also just throw out the idea of drafting the sets together and only have them together in Sealed, but that would be really weird for tournament play.
If anyone's interested, can PM me, I'll try to cut a deal, although most of this stuff is concurrently on eBay. Not all of them are totally mint fresh, but I don't have anything that's less than LP other than like 1 Karplusian Forest that's straight up damaged (I bought it that way lol). I'm in the US, so international stuff is probably too expensive since we're not talking Black Lotuses or anything.
The problem with the guilds is mostly that the mechanics are kind of lame. They'd have to just cut the individual guild mechanic thing entirely I'd imagine. They could also just throw out the idea of drafting the sets together and only have them together in Sealed, but that would be really weird for tournament play.
I've been doing the RU version with Whirly Rogue but the UU and the RR in Pia makes it hard to be played in the same deck. Mono red looks hella more consistent. I'll probably just mirror this deck.
Chandra should probably continue to spike. Just completed my playset today. Ugin is about to rotate out, so Chandra is the next best PW boardwipe to have.
It's not about being the only thing Wizards can come up with; it's about expectations of the player base. If Wizards wants to do a city-plane that isn't about guilds, they will (and, Kaladesh seems to have a bit city-theme based on what we've seen of it). The guilds are the heart of Ravnica both mechanically and narratively.
As for the mechanics, the only ones that are generally disliked are Radiance, Cipher and Haunt. The rest are all relatively popular (though some, like Forecast, Transmute and Dredge have developmental problems).
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
RTR's guilds all had a bunch of forgettable mechanics. That said I don't think its really a problem to have a set with 5 guilds and 5 mechanics and then a second large set with 5 more. The issue is trying to make it work as a draft environment that has both in it (the answer to this is to not draft them together ever outside of sealed).
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Just following expectancy is complacent and will only lead to stagnation.
The guilds are at the core of Ravnica but they aren't all of it, the narrative on and outside of cards told us about guildless and at least 1 organization spanning guilds, heck much of Ravnica's populace has nothing to do with Guilds. Presuming Wizards can't forge a set and corresponding narrative to a guildless Ravnica is frankly just knocking on Wizards capability.
There's unpopular mechanics and there's mechanics that are just meh, and both Ravnica's had a bunch of meh mechanics.
and that's hypeebole
charlequin
Banned
The problem is basically that after doing Ravnica once, lots of people really really wanted straight-up more Ravnica, but after doing it twice, people aren't as enthused. Rosewater's even said they have to mix it up more if (read: when) they go back again. Like obviously they don't want to go totally off the blueprint but they're gonna need to mix it up more than they did with RTR.
This is basically the equivalent of suggesting that a strategic collectible card game can't possibly be the only thing WotC can come up with for the Magic brand and so clearly they should be turning it into an FPS.
No, that's really pretty accurate. "What if... we took the single, fundamental defining aspect of the most popular thing we've ever done... and then... didn't do it?" Literally no one at WotC has ever or will ever consider this.
Wonder how they're going to deal with small set Standard apathy now that we're in a 2 set block cycle. Before, skipping a standard season for the first small set was ok since the third set was usually in a standard oriented season again and builders explored both it and the second set pretty thoroughly. Now, it feels like the fall block's second set is going to be basically ignored for standard applications for one rotation.
....
This is your takeaway coming from OGW? (One of the best constructed sets ever made)
Khans is a pretty warping block. Things are going to be changing a lot.
Yes? I feel like OGW standard hasn't really been explored. OGW modern, sure.
And, to be clear, this has nothing to do with the set itself- just the way the PT season is structured + 2 set blocks.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Then they are just gonna repeat ravnica over and over, RTR was exciting the prospect of RTRTR as it stands isn't.
You can do homages and you can do callbacks but you don't have to repeat it letter by letter. That's my issue with the new star wars it's not its own movie.
The guildless were a faction before explore them now, explore the shambles of guilds getting included in the general populace, the people merging,... There are themes in ravnica outside the 10 guilds alternatively make the set the populace rising against the guilds in a french revolution fashion.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
The Guilds are never not going to be a part of Ravnica. The Guild symbology is infinitely marketable, as evidenced from the amount of ancillary products WotC sold using them. It also provides that fourth wall hook, in that players self-identify with a guild and bring that with them into the game. It's not just with the casual players either, as we saw players like Brad Nelson go all in with his particular guild.
You're falling into what I like to call the Batman fatigue syndrome. People love Batman. So much so, that they tend to overdose on him and then blame the character for being stale after a certain point. They uphold big shakeups to the continuity like Dick Grayson being Batman and chastise DC for not making those changes permanent. After all, if they don't, they're just repeating old stories, letter for letter, right?
The problem there should be obvious. Unless you're an immortal vampire nerd, you came into loving Batman as Bruce Wayne, decades after his inception. The character has had a ton of ups and downs, but constants have normally remained. Why? Because those constants are compelling. They're what makes the character work. Yes, you may be sick of the thousandth Bruce Wayne as Batman fighting the Joker story, but you hold no special rights to the character. Somewhere, some kid is discovering Batman for the first time, and is being enthralled, much in the same way fans have for a century, give or take.
The same applies to something with such a strong visual, thematic and game-ready set of properties as Ravnica. The guilds are awesome for new players. They're awesome for many old players, as well. If you're sick of them, well, that's definitely understandable. But if they space out Return to Return to Ravnica enough, there will be a whole new generation of players discovering these things for the first time. And for them, being able to identify and play as a Gruul tribesman or a Orzhov cleric will be fucking awesome.
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