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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
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Simply Sarah
Member
There are a total of 4 innate Madness B/R cards currently known by my count, 3 of which are permanents. Yes, that's where the payoff is going to be, but we certainly haven't seen it yet.
Rabiah or, especially, Ulgrotha. Let's go back and redeem it for the sins of Homelands.
Attleborotaco
Member
G/W Human clue theme?
It sounds like, if you follow Rosewater's blog, neither are particularly likely. Rabiah because it's too close to (e.g. is exactly) real-life Arabian Nights lore, and Ulgrotha because it was basically a failure and they'd rather just move on (paraphrasing). I would have originally loved if they used Ulgrotha for Innistrad, but I have come to really love Innistrad as a setting. I don't know if there's room for two similarly-themed planes like that. Maybe they could set a Conspiracy set there or something in the future?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
In a burn deck I wonder if this, on average, increases the damage dealt or is worse. Because if it reveals a bolt it turns it into a 1 damage spell, but you also get to see another card after that.
Same problem as Tribute. They pick whatever mode is best for them
Well yeah. I'm just wondering how the math works out based on average damage per card for a burn deck.
In the simplest case, where you're playing 40 Bolts and 20 mountains and magically have this guy in play:
A random card from your deck, on average, does ~2 damage. Since 2/3 times it is a Bolt.
So if this guy reveals a bolt, it does one damage instead of 3, and the card you'll then draw instead is approximately 2 damage, so the damage is the same, but you're up a mana. If it reveals a mountain, it'll get milled, which does no damage, but it gets you to your next card which is, again, 2 damage. So that's probably good.
And he is a 3/2 menace, which isn't unreasonable. I think it could work for the right deck.
Simply Sarah
Member
I know it's unlikely for said reasons especially given that Innistrad exists, but Ulgrotha was such a fantastic setting that, despite starting not too long after Homelands and seeing the train wreck it was firsthand, I still think of the set fondly for what it did right...which was mostly everything not related to card functionality.
It also has the potential to go hilariously wrong with land denial if it lines up right/wrong.
G/W Human clue theme?
That art on Tireless Tracker is so much better than Sorin, Deschamps really fucked that one up.
Basic lands of SOI, the last island and last mountain are both beautiful.
Keru_Shiri
Member
Sin Prodder seems pushed. I don't think it's fair to look at cards like bolt when evaluating this guy since he likely won't see play on eternal formats. Instead, he'll likely be flipping cards like Incorrigible Youths or Fiery Temper where the damage value is much better. Definetly worth a playtest.
Also, part of me wants a Vexing Devil reprint for standard Red Devils now.
Also, part of me wants a Vexing Devil reprint for standard Red Devils now.
ThLunarian
Member
I'm not so sure. You are making them pay life at no cost to you (in terms of card advantage).
If you're playing a Burn deck and a Lightning Bolt is revealed, there is no good choice for them. Either they take 1 and you draw a card that is most likely more burn, or they don't take any from the reveal, but you get to draw a bolt.
I think it's a skill tester for the opponent, along the lines of Fact or Fiction. It punishes bad decisions and there's no downside for you.
I like it.
Once you go full art land doe...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
This card is perfect for my landfall EDH deck that generates infinite mana by infinitely playing and bouncing lands.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
So if the card does not get milled, you draw 2 cards that turn, correct?
Yeah. You still get your normal draw step.
charlequin
Banned
Have we collectively agreed as a community that no one's going to throw a baby fit because they can't stand a little whimsy in cycle nicknames this time? Good, glad we had this talk.
Right, which is why you pretty much have to drop that theme if you do somehow decide to go back to the plane. You can treat it like Theros and just have like 30 legends for the block without making it a top-line ttheme.
This isn't like Kamigawa where it's just really unlikely, these are both 100% not gonna ever happen. Rabiah is too much of a real-world reference and they don't do that by policy anymore, so when they eventually get back to "Arabian world" they'll do a new plane for it. UIgrotha is just way too incoherent to support a modern set, I mean... Gothic horror vampires and Maori minotaurs? Innistrad already repurposed all the better parts and if they decide they want to revisit the Sengir plotline or anything they'll do it in a supplemental set.
Right, which is why you pretty much have to drop that theme if you do somehow decide to go back to the plane. You can treat it like Theros and just have like 30 legends for the block without making it a top-line ttheme.
This isn't like Kamigawa where it's just really unlikely, these are both 100% not gonna ever happen. Rabiah is too much of a real-world reference and they don't do that by policy anymore, so when they eventually get back to "Arabian world" they'll do a new plane for it. UIgrotha is just way too incoherent to support a modern set, I mean... Gothic horror vampires and Maori minotaurs? Innistrad already repurposed all the better parts and if they decide they want to revisit the Sengir plotline or anything they'll do it in a supplemental set.
In a burn deck I wonder if this, on average, increases the damage dealt or is worse. Because if it reveals a bolt it turns it into a 1 damage spell, but you also get to see another card after that.
Obviously not great outside of Standard but it could be interesting in a deck with something like Molten Vortex. Even if they give you a land you can get action out of it. Combine it with things like Harness the Storm and Goblin Dark Dwellers and you might have ways of casting the cards they pitch. *shrug*
Should have been a 2/1 for 1R to complete the quintuple.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
I would assume the effects stack with multiple ones in play, but is it just the damage aspect or the entire reveal / draw step (if you had 3 in play, reveal once then deal damage x 3 or "reveal -> damage" three consecutive times)?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Sin Prodder is a punisher mechanic. Of course it won't be good. Those are never good because they're inconsistent and your opponent just picks the thing that sucks the least. It's an interesting form of reach for mono-red but it's probably too slow for it.
ThLunarian
Member
Oh my god, if they don't pay the life then you put the card in your HAND? I first read it as it just goes back on top.
That guy is insane. Keep a close eye on his preorder price. If they put him at 3 dollars or less, I say jump on it.
That guy is insane. Keep a close eye on his preorder price. If they put him at 3 dollars or less, I say jump on it.
charlequin
Banned
That's Young Pyromancer.
I'm not sure if it's good or not by this standard, but I think you have to evaluate it as a 3-power-evasion-for-3 that makes you draw fewer lands and deals a little free damage the opponent occasionally.
Put me in the camp that thinks Sin Prodder is pretty good for RDW. It isn't insane by any means, but 3/2 Menace for 3 is already solid. Then you have the added upside of either pinging your opponent or drawing an extra card (both of which are powerful effects in RDW) plus potential graveyard shenanigans. Looks good to me.
Keru_Shiri
Member
My main concern with Sin Prodder is that mono-red has had to increasingly rely on utility cards to get the job done, like Roast, Titan's Strength, or Atarka's Command. Giving the opponent the option to mill past those for relatively little damage may be a problem.
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's all upside, but I don't think it's enough to make me want to put Boggart Brute in a Constructed deck. I think I'd happily first-pick it in draft though.
ThLunarian
Member
I'm really surprised you guys aren't liking this more. In an aggressive deck, it's a red Phyrexian Arena, that beats for 3, with evasion.
I guess we'll see.
I guess we'll see.
Sin Prodder seemed like crap at first, because those "punisher/let your oppnents choose" cards always are, but a 3/2 body with Menace for 3 really isn't that bad even if you'll never get max value out of its ability.
He might be too slow for mono-red though. Doesn't do anything ETB and doesn't have haste. Could see him as a sideboard piece for when games get grindy.
He might be too slow for mono-red though. Doesn't do anything ETB and doesn't have haste. Could see him as a sideboard piece for when games get grindy.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I can't evaluate Prodder for shit, and it's all Vexing Devil's fault. I was so sure that card was going to see play - and it did, but only in crappy decks. I've been a sucker for these type of red cards.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I might be mis-remembering, but I'm pretty sure Vexing Devil has Top8'd a Modern GP.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Really? Is my janky red card evaluation skill redeemed?!?
Keru_Shiri
Member
It still holds a $10 price tag, which is good for a janky red rare. I like it because it gets around Leyline of Sanctity.
I want to know his deckbuilding process
"I want 1 copy of this card in my maindeck and none in my sideboard!"
Keru_Shiri
Member
Probably didn't want the 2nd Shard Volley. The main is pretty close to the stock list otherwise.
SigmasonicX
Member
The new dual lands are pretty interesting, particularly in how they are terrible as topdecks.
Call the Bloodline could be good in Limited. Even beyond limiting madness, the once a turn part is good at stopping beginners from wrecking their own hands. You know, these vampire cards keep mentioning a war, but what exactly are they fighting against? The angels?
Tireless Tracker and Ulvenwald Mysteries are pretty interesting. Also, the former is an example of card drawing tied to lands instead of creatures... albeit, on a creature.
Sin Prodder could be good. The way it's usually going to go is that the opponent won't let you draw a card when they have a lot of life, but will have you draw the card when they're low on life, so it needs to be evaluated in that regard. There are also cases where you are land screwed and the opponent mills your lands, and when you're land flooded and the opponent mills your spells, but those situations are very unlikely, even if they'll probably stick out in your mind.
EDIT: Also, from MaRo's article, it's interesting to note that investigate was originally a strictly better version of red's temporary card draw. You exiled the top card of your library face down (so your opponent couldn't see it) and you have until the end of your next turn to cast it. And it wouldn't have been centered in red. I mean, I get it, it's worse than a cantrip, but it would have felt like kicking red while it was down.
And from the development article, they say for skulk that they'll, "be eager to see what you think of this keyword when it appears more frequently." Yeah, definitely evergreen. They also confirm that they tested madness heavily with Jace.
Call the Bloodline could be good in Limited. Even beyond limiting madness, the once a turn part is good at stopping beginners from wrecking their own hands. You know, these vampire cards keep mentioning a war, but what exactly are they fighting against? The angels?
Tireless Tracker and Ulvenwald Mysteries are pretty interesting. Also, the former is an example of card drawing tied to lands instead of creatures... albeit, on a creature.
Sin Prodder could be good. The way it's usually going to go is that the opponent won't let you draw a card when they have a lot of life, but will have you draw the card when they're low on life, so it needs to be evaluated in that regard. There are also cases where you are land screwed and the opponent mills your lands, and when you're land flooded and the opponent mills your spells, but those situations are very unlikely, even if they'll probably stick out in your mind.
EDIT: Also, from MaRo's article, it's interesting to note that investigate was originally a strictly better version of red's temporary card draw. You exiled the top card of your library face down (so your opponent couldn't see it) and you have until the end of your next turn to cast it. And it wouldn't have been centered in red. I mean, I get it, it's worse than a cantrip, but it would have felt like kicking red while it was down.
And from the development article, they say for skulk that they'll, "be eager to see what you think of this keyword when it appears more frequently." Yeah, definitely evergreen. They also confirm that they tested madness heavily with Jace.
divisionbyzorro
Member
But the body is just Boggart Brute. The question is whether or not it's enough upside on a mediocre body.
charlequin
Banned
You get a Vintage deck named after you, you can qualify for the two-drop cycle.
Your opponent can't gain any advantage from Sin Prodder (though they can lessen your advantage from it). This is a complete non-issue.
EDIT: Personally I think it's good enough and will see play. We'll see.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I thought we had all accepted Pyromancer as the 5th one in the cycle. Hell, it's played much more than Bob is in eternals now. Time to end this crusade, Firemind. It's over.
It's over.
It's over.
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