Yeah, I wouldn't ever think to argue it. It's proven itself.
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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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Yeah, I wouldn't ever think to argue it. It's proven itself.
In a burn deck I wonder if this, on average, increases the damage dealt or is worse. Because if it reveals a bolt it turns it into a 1 damage spell, but you also get to see another card after that.
This card will be great, I think. Its essentially extra damage. You can't think of flipping a bolt as 2 damage lost, but 1 damage gained. Not to mention multiples will work well together. Also a form of evasion never hurts
3/2 menace is mediocre?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
IDK maybe its the best card in thy set, punisher mechanics are hard to evaluate because they traditionally are booty.
SigmasonicX
Member
With the speed of this thread, I should probably put this part I edited into my last post into a new one.
From MaRo's article, it's interesting to note that investigate was originally a strictly better version of red's temporary card draw. You exiled the top card of your library face down (so your opponent couldn't see it) and you have until the end of your next turn to cast it. And it wouldn't have been centered in red. I mean, I get it, it's worse than a cantrip, but it would have felt like kicking red while it was down.
And from the development article, they say for skulk that they'll, "be eager to see what you think of this keyword when it appears more frequently." Yeah, definitely evergreen. They also confirm that they tested madness heavily with Jace.
From MaRo's article, it's interesting to note that investigate was originally a strictly better version of red's temporary card draw. You exiled the top card of your library face down (so your opponent couldn't see it) and you have until the end of your next turn to cast it. And it wouldn't have been centered in red. I mean, I get it, it's worse than a cantrip, but it would have felt like kicking red while it was down.
And from the development article, they say for skulk that they'll, "be eager to see what you think of this keyword when it appears more frequently." Yeah, definitely evergreen. They also confirm that they tested madness heavily with Jace.
Simply Sarah
Member
Yeah, having thought about it a bit more I completely agree with this. If the card has a potential real downside then you're running it in the wrong deck.
And not just are those situations unlikely but they're also not really any more likely than hitting an all/no land patch when drawing normally. Additionally, your opponent milling your spells into you only drawing land is still better than just normally drawing repeated lands since you're at least inflicting damage between staring at your 4th and 5th Mountain draws in a row.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Has Boggart Brute been a player in Standard?
SigmasonicX
Member
Yes, but it's the sort of thing that would make a player really upset at the card, even if it isn't logical.
ThLunarian
Member
This is like asking if a vanilla 2/1 for two mana has ever been solid when trying to evaluate Dark Confidant
divisionbyzorro
Member
I was responding to the comment about "mediocre body." 2/1 for 2 would definitely be considered "mediocre." I believe a 3/2 menace for 3 is also pretty mediocre - as in, it doesn't stand by itself, so you should ask yourself if the effect is worth paying for and getting the body at a discount (or vice versa).
Simply Sarah
Member
Yeah, which is why my initial reaction was pretty dismissive. And I still think it's probably mediocre in most decks that aren't mono-red aggro. The only real questions to me are if there's going to be enough support to make it work in Standard and if it has enough impact to fit into RDW in other formats.
Oh, for sure.
Weighing in on Sin Prodder:
This is a hard card to evaluate. The Lightning Bolt application is tough to swallow (losing 3 points targetable whenever you want for 1 to the dome is a bad rate) but I don't think a deck using that card is going to put emphasis on playing Lightning Bolt. I feel like if this card were to excel, a deck would need to be built on how to utilize both halves of the ability. Whether such a deck can exist or will exist remains to be seen.
This is a hard card to evaluate. The Lightning Bolt application is tough to swallow (losing 3 points targetable whenever you want for 1 to the dome is a bad rate) but I don't think a deck using that card is going to put emphasis on playing Lightning Bolt. I feel like if this card were to excel, a deck would need to be built on how to utilize both halves of the ability. Whether such a deck can exist or will exist remains to be seen.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
3CMC is more restrictive than 2CMC and letting your opponent decide is problematic. Still, could be a really great card. An additional card per turn is an additional card per turn.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Sin Punisher's only real downside that I can see, is that if you're running a burn deck, you want to be pretty aggressively costed to begin with, so I'm not sure how much you'd be getting out of allowing your opponent to prevent threats.
But if you could tailor the deck correctly, it definitely has potential. If nothing else, it's cheap continual extra cards.
But if you could tailor the deck correctly, it definitely has potential. If nothing else, it's cheap continual extra cards.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
There's like 1 card with Madness so far in Blue and more than enough outlets in red and black. Seems like Jace is just overrated.
Simply Sarah
Member
See, that's the thing. In any burn heavy aggro deck you're not really having threats prevented. So they deny you the Lightning Bolt from the extra draw? Who cares, they take 1 and you draw your next threat instead. Don't think of it as losing a Lightning Bolt, think of it as getting an extra damage to your opponent for free. People comparing this to Dark Confidant are making a mistake, I think. Trying to use this as an actual method of card draw seems like a big mistake since you absolutely will get denied key cards that way.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The thing I will say in favor of Sin Prodder is that the body isn't that far off curve. I think its less good than Matter Reshaper for what its worth.
At first I was thinking that the downside of Sin Prodder is akin to giving your opponent Scry 1 (on you), but that isn't really appropriate because the card is leaving your library no matter what they choose.
Your top card might be the burn spell you need to win (so your opponent would definitely discard it), but it's equally likely that the second card in your deck is the burn spell you need to win and Sin Prodder lets you get there one turn faster. Any benefit your opponent gets will be lucky and situational; the card draw / free burn is a guaranteed benefit for yourself.
Your top card might be the burn spell you need to win (so your opponent would definitely discard it), but it's equally likely that the second card in your deck is the burn spell you need to win and Sin Prodder lets you get there one turn faster. Any benefit your opponent gets will be lucky and situational; the card draw / free burn is a guaranteed benefit for yourself.
Keru_Shiri
Member
If only Become Immense wasn't leaving Standard...
Sin Prodder is very good, the problem is that the ability is pure badfeel even though it's upside only. It's basically bizarro miracle and has the exact same problems. Every time you topdeck a Lightning Bolt with him and lose the game you will be like "DAMN YOU SIN PRODDER" even though it didn't actually change your success changes negatively.
Giant Panda
Member
I believe the correct way to view Sin Prodder is that statistically, when you have a random deck (no scry knowledge), that his ability is only upside. Correct?
But young pyromancer is blue!
The Sin Prodder, aside from being a terrible CG overload, is also not really that good. It goes in extremely low-variance aggressive decks which don't care about being locked out from topdecks because their deck is all the same card, but cost 3 and is as such close to unplayable there. I'll still try it somewhere but it's not that good. Had it costed 1R it could have actually been the cycle closer, but alas, it's red. Pyromancer is at heart a blue card, and Abbot, while another amazing 1R drop, is again a card that you want to run in a deck that run manipulation and lot of cantrips but isn't very aggressive in itself as it's unplayable T2 unlike the rest of the cycle. On the other hand, snapcaster goes in many more lists and it's also way better in terms of power level, Confidant is a necro on a stick, Goyf goes everywhere, and SFM is guaranteed card advantage, tutor and mana advantage if it survive.
"God's Beard!"
Member
People are arguing against Young Pyromancer?
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";198818751]People are arguing against Young Pyromancer?[/QUOTE]
Pyromancer is a card that live off cantrips and can go only in that kind of deck. It's an amazing card that see play in all formats, but if the "cycle closer" for red is a card that has to be played in blue decks, then yeah, i don't think it's a "cycle closer" at all, just another card that is made good by the cantrip cartel.
Pyromancer is a card that live off cantrips and can go only in that kind of deck. It's an amazing card that see play in all formats, but if the "cycle closer" for red is a card that has to be played in blue decks, then yeah, i don't think it's a "cycle closer" at all, just another card that is made good by the cantrip cartel.
Even when you have scry it's still all upside, because you're going to scry with the knowledge that you're going to get Prodded. It makes your decision more complicated, but not actually different.
Simply Sarah
Member
Basically. It technically doesn't harm your draws since the upkeep card is always leaving the top of your library one way or the other, so in the worst case you can pretty much just pretend it just unconditionally mills the top card of your library in your upkeep. Milling one completely random card a turn is almost entirely meaningless, if not outright positive, in most games.
I'm actually liking this card in constructed more and more as I think about it. It's probably more risky in limited where your threats can be, well, limited.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Let's back that up: nothing Sin Prodder does is downside. The fact that you can technically have a card that would otherwise win you the game milled doesn't change the odds of your drawn or revealed card being that wincon.
There are essentially 0 legitimate situations where you would not want a Sin Prodder vs. not having a Sin Prodder. But lots of cards don't hurt you having them in play, that's not a meaningful way to analyze the card.
There are essentially 0 legitimate situations where you would not want a Sin Prodder vs. not having a Sin Prodder. But lots of cards don't hurt you having them in play, that's not a meaningful way to analyze the card.
Thinking of cube terms, 3/2 menace for 3 with a non-marginal upside is pretty good. There are very few aggressive red 3-drops. Even if you hit them for 1-2 instead of 3 with your burn spell, that's damage to the face for zero mana. I'm excited about cubing it (goes very well with Fireblast and Greater Gargadon!). Not sure about constructed viability though, maybe there are indeed better choices.
This I can see. You definitely want to be drawing gas with this card online.
But Dark Confidant does that better. :lol
I mean, Countryside Crusher lets you get rid of lands too, grows bigger, is also three mana and was stone cold unplayable. Believe me, I played it at Nationals.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Dark Confidant is just a way better card though
charlequin
Banned
That's right. It's not worth even considering this in any type of deck that isn't low-curve and super homogeneous, and in those decks every possible hit is beneficial, it's just a question of how much.
The thing where every card that's good in Vintage is "blue" because blue is the broken color is silly and I don't support it. You might as well say Stoneforge Mystic is a blue card by that standard.
Scrying away a land is an upside in a deck that you've definitionally hit the top of the curve in already.
Ancestral Recall draws you cards faster too. Guess we better not talk about any Magic cards being good.
I'm really about 50/50 on this guy actually being good in Standard, because I think he requires a pretty specific kind of deck to work. Thinking about the situations where he could work is interesting to me, because this is a pretty new effect to evaluate.
It really isn't dark confidant. 3 mana vs 2 mana is a huge difference. It's perfectly fine in standard and garbage in eternal formats.
Simply Sarah
Member
Well yeah, it's not as good as Dark Confidant, but Dark Confidant is utterly ridiculous. That said, the cost being three instead of two certainly has the potential to hold it back. I think at 1R 2/1 Menace to mirror Confidant it would be much stronger than what we're actually getting, which may well be why this is what we're getting.
Probably friday I think? They usually release the full spoiler on fridays.
I'm absolutely loving this set, it's beautiful and has some nice cards for cube, Asylum Keeper looks like a major beating, Sin Prodder is exciting too, and both fill very lukewarm spots (aggro black 2-drop and red 3-drop).
I'm absolutely loving this set, it's beautiful and has some nice cards for cube, Asylum Keeper looks like a major beating, Sin Prodder is exciting too, and both fill very lukewarm spots (aggro black 2-drop and red 3-drop).
Ooccoo
Member
Friday
ThLunarian
Member
Sin Prodder reminds me of Goblin Rabblemaster.
Rabblemaster is probably better, but many people underestimated its ability at first too, because it was just a gray ogre.
Rabblemaster is probably better, but many people underestimated its ability at first too, because it was just a gray ogre.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Friday, but the full set spoiler will have nothing interesting in it beyond the filler commons for limited. FFL misses a lot, but they very rarely miss power limited cards or cards with any kind of constructed application in the spoiler season.
We can always hope for another Boros Reckoner...
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