Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The more I think about it, these lands LOOK like Checklands, but they're a lot closer to the Scars fastlands in application.
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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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The more and more I think about them the less I like them. It's like they're rewarding you for not playing a card. I feel like the format is either going to slow down a lot, or it's just going to try to go as "under everything" as possible.
divisionbyzorro
Member
1) Sin Prodder's ability is 100% upside. It doesn't affect your regular draw, so it's either doming your opponent (good), drawing you a card (very good), or milling away a land (also good, since you probably didn't want to draw the land anyway).
2) Sin Prodder's body is unplayable on its own. This isn't guesswork - there is an actual card to compare it to (Boggart Brute) that saw zero constructed play. This means that Sin Prodder's ability has to carry the card upwards.
3) Any aggressive deck in any format would play a 3/2 Menace for R. Most aggressive decks in Standard would at least consider a 3/2 Menace for 1R. So I'll state for the sake of argument that Sin Prodder will meet some base standard of "playable" if the ability is worth between 1 and 1.5 mana.
4) If Sin Prodder hits a card 66% of the time, let's assume that the opponent always does what's best for them (when it hits a land the other 33% of the time, they'll always mill it, and we'll assume that's mildly good for you). You'll always draw the card if it would be lethal or create lethal on board, and they'll take damage if they can't answer the card. Admittedly, sometimes they will make mistakes and you'll get some equity from there.
5) I think the ability of Sin Prodder is probably worth 1 mana, but would not be worth a card slot in your deck. By stapling it to a body that you'd be happy to have but didn't want to pay full price for, I think you're getting a package deal meets the standard of playable. However, I don't think Standard has the tools to abuse him, and my instincts tell me that he will underperform.
6) Which brings us to Modern. Does Modern want this guy? There are a lot of interesting cards to pair with this guy...
I don't think he'll be good in Modern, but there are at least some clever things you can try to do with him.
2) Sin Prodder's body is unplayable on its own. This isn't guesswork - there is an actual card to compare it to (Boggart Brute) that saw zero constructed play. This means that Sin Prodder's ability has to carry the card upwards.
3) Any aggressive deck in any format would play a 3/2 Menace for R. Most aggressive decks in Standard would at least consider a 3/2 Menace for 1R. So I'll state for the sake of argument that Sin Prodder will meet some base standard of "playable" if the ability is worth between 1 and 1.5 mana.
4) If Sin Prodder hits a card 66% of the time, let's assume that the opponent always does what's best for them (when it hits a land the other 33% of the time, they'll always mill it, and we'll assume that's mildly good for you). You'll always draw the card if it would be lethal or create lethal on board, and they'll take damage if they can't answer the card. Admittedly, sometimes they will make mistakes and you'll get some equity from there.
5) I think the ability of Sin Prodder is probably worth 1 mana, but would not be worth a card slot in your deck. By stapling it to a body that you'd be happy to have but didn't want to pay full price for, I think you're getting a package deal meets the standard of playable. However, I don't think Standard has the tools to abuse him, and my instincts tell me that he will underperform.
6) Which brings us to Modern. Does Modern want this guy? There are a lot of interesting cards to pair with this guy...
- Split Cards have high CMC, but are castable on either side for cheaper.
- Delve Cards have high CMC but can have that cost reduced; there are no red delve spells, but there are some that would pair nicely in an beatdown shell. Plus, the cards that get milled would fuel Delve.
- Convoke somewhat works, but I don't see Convoke spells playing nicely with a deck that probably wants to turn its creatures sideways to attack as opposed to tapping for mana.
- Some other fringe cards. Basically, anything where if they don't give you the card, they take a ton of damage, but it doesn't cost you a ton of mana or tempo to cast the card.
I don't think he'll be good in Modern, but there are at least some clever things you can try to do with him.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean, that's technically what the Fastlands do too. But if you're going to have a land type that works this way, I think its better that they get worse as the game goes rather than better, particularly given that you can't necessarily activate them reliably early on.
Yeah, I getcha. I just wish they'd have done the check lands again and just called it a day, as these just feel way worse. That said, "Glacial Fortress" doesn't really work on Innistrad, nor does "Dragonskull Summit". Too bad.
Stoneforge Mystic is played in non-blue decks though, even during her days in Standard. People like to state Goyf is a blue creature, but I played it in a Naya shell during Time Spiral Block Constructed! It was also played in pretty much every aggro deck in Standard. Young Pyromancer only saw play in R/W Burn. Young Pyromancer requires a certain shell to work, a critical mass of spells, the other four don't, which is why it was never dominant in Standard. That's the difference.
Exactly! They could have pushed it but instead chose not to.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
1R 2/1 even with no other abilities would be busted. Like Modern staple good. The reliability of the card isn't nearly as relevant when it has such a small investment.
That's not true. While there haven't been any major Deathrite Shaman-level surprises in a while, they always hold back a couple of constructed cards. Most recently we had Zulaport Cutthroat and Dispel as surprise full-spoiler reveals in BFZ, and Grasp of Darkness in OGW.
(Limited)
Sin prodder looks amazing. Kind of scared of getting my lands milled but that's the worst case scenario I'll take it
Tireless tracker looks great. A little slow and i m not so sure there's a green blue deck but he can go in other decks as well obv.
Ulvenweld mysteries
Another gu or GW deck card maybe? Seems good to me.
Call the bloodline
Seems string. Discard for madness but not all madness cards NEED an outlet so this also only goes in some archtypes
Sin prodder looks amazing. Kind of scared of getting my lands milled but that's the worst case scenario I'll take it
Tireless tracker looks great. A little slow and i m not so sure there's a green blue deck but he can go in other decks as well obv.
Ulvenweld mysteries
Another gu or GW deck card maybe? Seems good to me.
Call the bloodline
Seems string. Discard for madness but not all madness cards NEED an outlet so this also only goes in some archtypes
divisionbyzorro
Member
Treasure Cruise is one of the most powerful cards printed in the last decade and it wasn't revealed until the final dump of spoilers!
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The concern about self-mill is completely unwarranted, imo. Mill doesn't actually do anything to your chance of drawing a specific card you need.
If there was a Dark Confidant variant that said:
"At the beginning of your upkeep, mill 5, then reveal the top card of your library and put it into your hand," nobody would play Dark Confidant because the odds that the land you need is cards 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or the card you actually get is exactly the same.
Nah, they showed it before the full set reveal.
If there was a Dark Confidant variant that said:
"At the beginning of your upkeep, mill 5, then reveal the top card of your library and put it into your hand," nobody would play Dark Confidant because the odds that the land you need is cards 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or the card you actually get is exactly the same.
Nah, they showed it before the full set reveal.
Simply Sarah
Member
I'd be utterly shocked (and disappointed) to hear they didn't test it at 1R 2/1 for at least the 10 minutes needed to confirm how powerful this thing could have been. I want to assume they did and it scared the heck out of them.
Right. The nature of milling is such that, outside of some very specific decks, it only statistically harms you when the milled cards aren't effectively random and/or enough of it can happen fast enough that you actually end up totally decked.
I think I'd actually like to try Sin Prodder in a Big Red/Ramp strategy. When you're flipping Oblivion Sowers and World Breakers it becomes a bit of a lose-lose proposition for your opponent. The only issue is that you actually want your lands, so when you flip one it might slow you down. Drownyard and Groundskeeper can help mitigate that, bot both feel way too slow.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
...still better than Chandra's Phoenix.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean, if you ever wanted to know how bad we all are at card evaluation you can just look at the spoiler for literally any old set. I mean, don't ever let anyone saying "this card" sucks deter you
These are very much like the fastlands. Theyre there for faster mana aceess to match the painlands.
Enemy fastlands likely for set two i think.
Keru_Shiri
Member
Oh yeah, I still go back and read the initial impressions of Goblin Guide from time to time, lol.I mean, if you ever wanted to know how bad we all are at card evaluation you can just look at the spoiler for literally any old set. I mean, don't ever let anyone saying "this card" sucks deter you
I mean, if you ever wanted to know how bad we all are at card evaluation you can just look at the spoiler for literally any old set. I mean, don't ever let anyone saying "this card" sucks deter you
Did you see lsvs oath redo today. I was glad to see him knock seed guardian down a peg.
Is it good Friday in the states as well or just in Canada. Do they dump.all Commons at once or throughout the day
There's a big difference between a card being incidentally good with cantrips and designed to be played witht ehem. Goyf is an example of a borderline design, but still don't require you to play cantrips and u can just play discard and powerful removal + draw engines. Nowadays goyf isn't even played in heavy cantrips decks which prefer Angler or Tasigur, and soon possibly TITI. SFM is played in tons of non-blue decks and has nothing intrinsic in its design that is better alongside the cantrip cartel, if anything it's relatively stronger in non-blue decks because it fix their variance better than it does in blue decks, plus vial is a card. Confidant does not promote cantrips , but just low cost cards in general, and is seriously played only in non-blue decks which run tons of lands (aggro loam). Pyromancer essentially live and die by your ability to chain 1-mana spells which draw you cards. Abbot doesn't as much, but prowess is still something that encourage you to play as many cantrips as you can to pump it. Those are not red cards that go in predominantly red decks. Those are red cards that go along the cantrip cartel.
blindrocket
Member
Maybe they thought at just 2 CMC it would be a bit too fast for a straight up red/burn deck.
There are no good burn spells after rotation. Not yet at least. Frankly, I think it needs it desperately to keep World Breaker decks in check. No control deck is going to beat that.
Besides, they printed Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage. No real reason they can't do it again.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Supergeist of Saint Traft
Legendary Creature - Spirit Cleric
Hexproof
Whenever Supergeist of Saint Traft attacks, put a 4/4 white Angel creature token with flying onto the battlefield tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat
P/T: 2/2
C'mon. Pale imitation.Why is this not "Guise of St Traft"?
Why is this not "Guise of St Traft"?
I don't understand why they still do auras and then they make them sucks. You know the archetype is prone to 2-to1-s, at least do them recurrable, cantripping, or one-shot effects. This is so unplayable it hurts.
New invisible stalker is coming but it'll have skulk instead of unblockable.
Why is this not "Guise of St Traft"?
Brb. Attaching this to a Geist of Saint Traft.
SigmasonicX
Member
I don't think the card is too bad for Limited, in the sense that you can put it on a creature without summoning sickness, but yeah, they probably could have also put "Enchanted creature has hexproof" and still leave the card out of Constructed.
Geist of St Traft was over the line w those abilities and stats.
When the full spoiler was release, me and my buddy zeroed in on it immediately as the best card in the set when everyone was gasming over Snappy. Helped us win a team tournament release weekend.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Why is this not "Guise of St Traft"?
fail
Making an aura that fucking sucks and then assigning it rare because it's a callback to an actual good card is lame as fuck. Like, it could at LEAST give you +2/+2 on the creature and it would not be busted at all because Geist itself had hexproof.
I mean, I'm not saying they should have reprinted Geist of St. Traft. I'm saying they should have just not had a stupid reference to Geist of Saint Traft it they were going to do a bad job.
I remember passing it in draft once. It was off-color. I lost to the guy that was sitting next to me later.
Card's fine, I had an equipment version of this in my semi-custom cube.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
In what way is this fine? Card screams "uncommon." I mean, I don't know that I would say this card is better than Iona's Blessing from OGW. It's basically just an aura that conditionally gives a dude +4/+4 except doesn't really so your guy and the aura can get punked by a bigger blocker.
Angel comes out a turn faster than GOST, it's not all downside.
Ding.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think that's more optimistic than the way it actually works. If you're on the play, and you drop a bear turn 2, sure you can drop IoST turn 3 and swing for 6. Except your opponent can do what your opponent is exceptionally likely to do on his own turn 2, play an opposing bear, and now you have an enchantment that can't do anything unless you're willing to trade and 2-for-1 yourself.
Its an aura and auras aren't good very often, so having an aura that doesn't do anything game breaking and putting it at rare is annoying since the only thing making it actually rare is the callback.
charlequin
Banned
In standard Pyromancer was paired up with burn spells and white and black utility stuff. In Vintage it's all blue cantrips because blue cantrips are Better Than Everything Else so obviously anything that cares about spells is going to be full of those. It's still not an effect that would ever be printed in blue as written.
Looks like a limited win condition to me. And even splashable. Even if it's for 1 turn for that last 4 HP. Throw it on a skulk card early might be nice too
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Card is good on the assumption we get 1/3s with Skulk in mono-blue?
I'm not saying it's "good" (it could be), but it's very much costed appropriately.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
What I'm saying is that it doesn't actually do anything that any other aura doesn't and sure, its costed fine, but auras are often sort of aggressively costed because they're obvious 2-for-1 targets.
The problem with this post is assuming it was a decision.
The reason the color pie discussion they eventually had was so important is that before that there was just an implied color pie based on the previously existing cards. It doesn't sound like anybody was even thinking about whether blue was doing too much. They just looked at what existed and shoved stuff into blue.
I really don't think "weird meta shit" was the problem with blue. The problem with blue was that blue was the color of magic, and hey, it turns out that most things in Magic: the Gathering can be classified as magic. That's how blue got direct damage, colorshifting, card draw, counterspells, control effects, copy effects, recursion effects, and illusionary monsters -- they're all magic! What's the problem with the magic color getting all the magic effects?
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