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[WanderingWind]

Okay, so outside of a UWx control shell, where does Ancestral Visions even fit? It doesn't work with Snapcaster, either, so how many copies of it do you really want even in that shell? It's the worst topdeck imaginable, too. So, what, 2 copies in a grindy control deck? But then again, you really want 4 to make sure you have it in your opening hand.

I'm conflicted. Either this is going to spawn an actual Tier 1 Ux control deck, or this card is going to at 50 bucks because of the dream of one day getting to break it. I dunno. I am happy they unbanned a few things. It's a supreme feel-bad when they just ban shit. Their measured response to Eldrazi was excellent to see, as well, and not just because I was saying Eye was the problem all along. I feel Eldrazi is still good enough to be a modern player with Temple.

 

[charlequin]

I dont know many older cards, but what card is Necro and why does it cost $1000?

Sorry, we went down a rabbit hole a bit there.

Way back in the day, there was a deck called "Necro" which was fueled by the card Necropotence:

WotC spent a lot of time trying to reign this in by targeting various creatures and accelerators and such in the deck, but ultimately they realized the problem is just that Necro is a super-broken card draw engine and the only real option is to address it at its source.

The metaphor here is that in the Vintage Workshops deck, the core problem is that there's a land that taps for three mana (which is insane and overpowered)

and WotC keeps trying to address the deck by restricting the cards they cast with that mana instead of the land that's the real broken basis of the deck. In this case, it costs a thousand dollars because it was printed once in a minuscule print run in the game's first year so there are very few to go around, and the deck runs four of them.

Necro costs a thousand dollars, but if you own Necro, you've probably got much more than that in the bank.

I mean, if we start setting WotC policy with the axiom that people with ridiculously expensive cards probably have a lot of money anyway we're gonna be making changes to bigger things than the Vintage Restricted List, lol.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I dont know many older cards, but what card is Necro and why does it cost $1000?

It's an enchantment that allows you to pay 1 life to draw a card (with a delay). In an interesting note, it took a really long time for players at the time to figure out how good that was, since they were still hung up on every life point being precious. But once they did, we got what's called Necro Winter (the reason why the recent surge in Eldrazi decks is called Eldrazi Winter).

 

[kirblar]

It's more that a) It's still restricted b) It's still fucking crazy so c) These players will be only getting a short-term hit, if they take a hit at all.

The problem is that this means they actually have to build a new deck. The horror.

 

[JulianImp]

Wait, Thopter Foundry is back? I remember playing a basic version of it (before they added the Dark Depths shell) because it was both powerful and affordable, so I might sleeve it up in case I ever play Modern again. I loved assembling the combo and Time Sieving for infinite turns or even just getting free chump blockers and life, but I guess a decent amount of artifact hate (which is probably part of peoples' sideboards already because of affinity) can make things quite difficult for it.

 

[A Serious Man]

Sooooo humans anyone?

This is definitely better than the GW builds that have been floating around. Nothing green offers matches the tempo swings from Reflector Mage and Ojutai with vigilance is a truly beautiful thing. I'd have Stasis Snare in the SB to deal with Ormendahl and other things that need to be addressed at instant speed. Enchantment hate is also probably worth a couple slots. Silkwrap and Stasis Snare are everywhere and there are a ton of decks that rely on enchantments in the early meta.

 

[Metroidvania]

So the entire 'shell' costs 1000 dollars?

I immediately thought Necropotence, but saw it for 10-20 bucks, and was confused.

edit: Ah, it meant the Workshops. Yeah, those are nuts.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's an enchantment that allows you to pay 1 life to draw a card (with a delay). In an interesting note, it took a really long time for players at the time to figure out how good that was, since they were still hung up on every life point being precious. But once they did, we got what's called Necro Winter (the reason why the recent surge in Eldrazi decks is called Eldrazi Winter).

The problem was that they decided to ban everything around Necropotence instead of just banning Necropotence.

The funniest thing they did was ban a bunch of shit around Necropotence, and then once Necropotence was to rotate out of Type II, they reprinted Necropotence in the Core Set.

So the entire 'shell' costs 1000 dollars?

I immediately thought Necropotence, but saw it for 10-20 bucks, and was confused.

Mishra's Workshop just costs $1000. The deck probably costs $20,000.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Not arguing, just wondering what you're basing the conclusion on. I thought Menendian did a decent job of arguing on his last podcast that neither Petition nor Gush decks are really in a dominant position or winning an insane amount.

Workshop decks weren't in a dominant position and gush and dark petition decks basically revived combo in spite of workshop existing, especially after chalice restriction. All said decks were represenetd in healty percentages. Lodestone restriction is basically gutting heavily one pillar while keeping the others unchanged which seems stupid.

EDIT: this is especially depressing if you consider that all different colored workshops as the same deck still don't get 20% of the online metagame. If we were to apply a similar reasoning to blue decks, 80% of the metagame would be bluepower decks, and 30% would be 4xgush decks. Which accentuate the amount of stupid.

EDIT2: relevant

 

[Ringo]

The funny thing with Necropotence is that they tried to print a fixed version of it called Yawgmoth's Bargain. Which was even more powerful...

Necro Winter wasn't that bad...after that we got Tolarian Academy decks that could kill on T1 in standard. Games were sometimes decided on a roll of the dice. Contrary to Summer Bloom decks that required some skill, those decks were very forgiving.

And just when you'ld think that WotC had learned from mistakes they created Affinity for artifacts alongside artifact lands.

So Eldrazi decks don't come as such a surprise to me...

 

[Keru_Shiri]

So the entire 'shell' costs 1000 dollars?

I immediately thought Necropotence, but saw it for 10-20 bucks, and was confused.

edit: Ah, it meant the Workshops. Yeah, those are nuts.

Yeah, I got excited for a second since I have an Ice Age Necro in a binder somewhere.

 

[y2dvd]

Sooooo humans anyone?

Damn Archangel of Tithes shot up to $20.

 

[OnPoint]

It's an enchantment that allows you to pay 1 life to draw a card (with a delay). In an interesting note, it took a really long time for players at the time to figure out how good that was, since they were still hung up on every life point being precious. But once they did, we got what's called Necro Winter (the reason why the recent surge in Eldrazi decks is called Eldrazi Winter).

I thought it was Black Summer.

 

[Haines]

OK so I'm beyond excited. My store decided to cap drafts at 2 8 man pods instead of the nonsensical 10 + pods it was doing.

So I'm signed up and ready to rock. Feels like a format that you draft synergy bit more than power.

I really hope he stays at the cap going forward.

 

[charlequin]

Workshop decks weren't in a dominant position and gush and dark petition decks basically revived combo in spite of workshop existing, especially after chalice restriction. All said decks were represenetd in healty percentages. Lodestone restriction is basically gutting heavily one pillar while keeping the others unchanged which seems stupid.

Oh so you're not actually pushing for Gush and Dark Petition restrictions, just noting that this change will lead to an unbalanced meta. Okay, that makes more sense.

I thought it was Black Summer.

Black Summer (Necropotence), Combo Winter (Urza's Saga).

 

[WanderingWind]

Pay 20,000 to play a card game guys. Lol.

Now, who wants to play a game of modern where the decks cost a relatively reasonable 1-2000 dollars???

 

[G.ZZZ]

The funny thing with Necropotence is that they tried to print a fixed version of it called Yawgmoth's Bargain. Which was even more powerful...

Necro Winter wasn't that bad...after that we got Tolarian Academy decks that could kill on T1 in standard. Games were sometimes decided on a roll of the dice. Contrary to Summer Bloom decks that required some skill, those decks were very forgiving.

And just when you'ld think that WotC had learned from mistakes they created Affinity for artifacts alongside artifact lands.

So Eldrazi decks don't come as such a surprise to me...

I'd argue that whichever is more broken depend on the format. Bargain is better in vintage, while necro would be better if unbanned in legacy because of the mana restrictions.

 

[charlequin]

I'd argue that whichever is more broken depend on the format. Bargain is better in vintage, while necro would be better if unbanned in legacy because of the mana restrictions.

Specifically Bargain was much more powerful in Standard upon release than Necro had been.

 

[Attleborotaco]

Wait, Thopter Foundry is back? I remember playing a basic version of it (before they added the Dark Depths shell) because it was both powerful and affordable, so I might sleeve it up in case I ever play Modern again. I loved assembling the combo and Time Sieving for infinite turns or even just getting free chump blockers and life, but I guess a decent amount of artifact hate (which is probably part of peoples' sideboards already because of affinity) can make things quite difficult for it.

So from how i understand it works is, You play Thopter Foundry, then Sword of the meek, and Time Sieve. At 5 mana, you sac sword of the meek, get a thopter, sword of the meek comes back attached to said thopter. Then do that 5 times and get 5 thopters, and then take an extra turn, repeat infinite times?

 

[Firemind]

Specifically Bargain was much more powerful in Standard upon release than Necro had been.

If they made a necro that only lets you play the cards revealed this turn, like the red exile effect, how much would it cost?

 

[Santiako]

So from how i understand it works is, You play Thopter Foundry, then Sword of the meek, and Time Sieve. At 5 mana, you sac sword of the meek, get a thopter, sword of the meek comes back attached to said thopter. Then do that 5 times and get 5 thopters, and then take an extra turn, repeat infinite times?

Yes. Even without Time Sieve, if you have Foundry and Sword you can make a repeatable 1/1 flyer and gain a life for 1 mana at instant speed, which is pretty crazy good.

 

[Insaniac]

More busts from my 11 reward packs from the prerelease, opened ANOTHER triskadekaphobia, ANOTHER behold the beyond as a mythic, fairly underwhelming to average rares for everything else. Only nice thing was a foil Descend upon the Sinful

Guess I am going to hafta buy the planeswalkers as singles

 

[Angry Grimace]

So from how i understand it works is, You play Thopter Foundry, then Sword of the meek, and Time Sieve. At 5 mana, you sac sword of the meek, get a thopter, sword of the meek comes back attached to said thopter. Then do that 5 times and get 5 thopters, and then take an extra turn, repeat infinite times?

You don't need anything but Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. Gaining 1 life and 1 guy for every card in your deck is stupid to begin with.

 

[red13th]

This talk about Time Sieve combo reminds me that I actually have my old Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek/Time Sieve deck too! First time I have playsets of the unbanned card (cards this time), I don't even BUY playsets anymore.

I bought that deck because my brother-in-law would play Disciple Affinity in our casual playgroup.

 

[bigkrev]

Happy Sword got unbanned, it should finally shut people up about unbanning SFM. Also happy to see Visions unbanned, I can now sell my copies into the spike for a card that doesn't do anything before the point the average game of Modern is over. Glad they decided to ban Eye instead of Mimic plus Temple, I prefer a smaller ban list. And with the release of sword, it's going to be more important than ever to have anti-artifact SB cards, which makes the need to ban Opal lower- I think Affinity goes back to its lower tier 1 strategy with the best G1 but the worst G2+ in the format.

Only complaint about the list is that they didn't ban SSG or Vengence.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Imho people should speculate on tezzerets not vision. Thopter/sword is really, really strong and see play even in legacy (marginal nowadays after things like Mentor and eldrazi got printed, but still).

 

[kirblar]

Tezz is almost sold out on tcgp, aob version anyway.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Just sold mine but they still seem cheap over the pond.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Trying to buy into the newest Modern hotness is a fucking crock of shit anyways.

Just pick one deck and play it unless you intend to be a grinder on the SCG circuit or whatever. Thopter-Sword is good. But Thopter-Sword didn't exist in a format with all sorts of broken nonsense to counter it and where a bunch of companion cards like Jace or Chrome Mox are banned.

 

[f0rk]

Is mono blue Tezzeret likely to see play? Apparently I opened 1 foil and 1 normal one at GP Utrecht.

Trying to buy into the newest Modern hotness is a fucking crock of shit anyways.

But they banned my old hotness

 

[Firemind]

Just play Affinity. That deck is never going to get banned.

 

[bigkrev]

Is mono blue Tezzeret likely to see play? Apparently I opened 1 foil and 1 normal one at GP Utrecht.



But they banned my old hotness

If you bought into Eldrazi Modern, you have no one to blame but yourself. You knew they were banning cards from the deck before the Pro Tour even ended.

Just play Affinity. That deck is never going to get banned.

I still think Opal gets banned somewhere down the line

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Just play Affinity. That deck is never going to get banned.

needs more arcbound ravager reprints.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

So, how much higher will SSG creep?

 

[charlequin]

Another in the "kind of a real card if you squint" RoboRosewater series:

If they made a necro that only lets you play the cards revealed this turn, like the red exile effect, how much would it cost?

Oh, gosh. Um... six, I guess? Tempdraw really is significantly worse in this case, but that card is still way, way, way better than either of the repeatable effects that generated tempdraws before, and they were both four mana.

 

[f0rk]

If you bought into Eldrazi Modern, you have no one to blame but yourself. You knew they were banning cards from the deck before the Pro Tour even ended.

Nah, Twin. I haven't played much Modern since.

I'm not sure whether to buy anything now. A playset of Visions is £100. When I was thinking about getting into EDH I apparently bought 1 of each Sword / Foundry / Time Sieve. Tezzerat has sold out on MCM.

But I'm not convinced any of this is actually good. Abrupt Decay wasn't a card before. I'm thinking UWR Geist that doesn't durdle around with these combos might be more effective. Spell Snare seems very good week 1.

 

[WanderingWind]

Another in the "kind of a real card if you squint" RoboRosewater series:

That would actually be an incredible addition to red's bag of tricks. Even the name is incredibly flavorful. Goblin grenade-esque, even. Definitely my favorite so far.

 

[phazedplasma]

Damn Archangel of Tithes shot up to $20.

Yeah glad I got mine forever ago.

 

[OnPoint]

1. Is it time to buy Tezzert?

2. Which one, or both?

 

[ironmang]

Damn Archangel of Tithes shot up to $20.

People really want to play white weenies. I've been running into it all week testing online. I don't think it's particularly good though and for 4 mana I think I'd still rather just run Gideon anyways.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Another in the "kind of a real card if you squint" RoboRosewater series:

Oh, gosh. Um... six, I guess? Tempdraw really is significantly worse in this case, but that card is still way, way, way better than either of the repeatable effects that generated tempdraws before, and they were both four mana.

3 mana deal 10 damage on untap SeemsGood

 

[charlequin]

That would actually be an incredible addition to red's bag of tricks. Even the name is incredibly flavorful. Goblin grenade-esque, even. Definitely my favorite so far.

I'm not sure of the actual right cost to balance (I can't think of a comparable effect off the top of my head so not sure where it falls) and the name while great is one of those fix-it-in-flavor-text things (what does the graveyard have to do with goblins?) but yeah, this one is unusually coherent even by the standards of the real-card-y RoboRosewater entries.

 

[Metroidvania]

Wouldn't Goblin/Burn have just as many cards in their graveyard, tho?

Yeah, they'll probably win in a race, but that seems relatively risky, considering Red's other tools.

Admittedly, It'd make for some interesting (read:hilarious) play.

 

[phazedplasma]

This is definitely better than the GW builds that have been floating around. Nothing green offers matches the tempo swings from Reflector Mage and Ojutai with vigilance is a truly beautiful thing. I'd have Stasis Snare in the SB to deal with Ormendahl and other things that need to be addressed at instant speed. Enchantment hate is also probably worth a couple slots. Silkwrap and Stasis Snare are everywhere and there are a ton of decks that rely on enchantments in the early meta.

Good suggestions thanks.

I was also thinking of swapping anafenza for consul and maybe adding 1 or 2 Ojutais command.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Oh man I regret trading my Tezzerets now but since I really couldn't have predicted that I'm not too fazed. Still have 2 might list them if I didn't love the card so much.

Wouldn't Goblin/Burn have just as many cards in their graveyard, tho?

Yeah, they'll probably win in a race, but that seems relatively risky, considering Red's other tools.

Admittedly, It'd make for some interesting (read:hilarious) play.

Nah they'd just play more grim lavamancers.

 

[Infinite Stars]

I'm just laughing at Archangel's jump in price, because the card is Bonkers and very few saw that until now. Granted, the whole 4 Colour Good Stuff didn't help, what with it having triple white to cast, but it still is Bonkers.

As for Standard, I'm debating between going Bant humans or just GW/UW. I'll need to do some testing with all 3 before I decide. It's obviously White as the base.

Also need to look into getting some Hermits of the Natterknull and see how they work in GW Hatebears. They're a VoR that costs 1 more to cast, has one more toughness, and the rider on it draws cards vs creating a token. On the plus side, he gets better once he transforms, and effectively locking your opponent into only getting acting on their turn(If you have him and a VoR in play, you get a */* Token and 1/2 Cards for each spell they cast during their turn) sounds fun. Considering the number of instants that dominate Modern, it seems feasible.

 

[blindrocket]

Another in the "kind of a real card if you squint" RoboRosewater series:

I like it!

 

[Hackworth]

Another in the "kind of a real card if you squint" RoboRosewater series:

This is straight up just a card. Not a well flavored one, and it's OP as balls, but it actually functions.

 

[OnPoint]

Welp Tez Agent of Bolas spiked. Glad I already have my copies haha

 

[Angry Grimace]

Reid Duke: "Oh noes all these existing decks are now bad better start buying into these new decks btw we here at CFB will be selling Ancestral Vision for the low low price of $50"