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[BY2K]

Interesting quote from Aonuma.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...da-eiji-aonuma-interview.aspx?PostPageIndex=2

As it turns out, in this remade version of Majora’s Mask, we added one extra bottle. If you happen to collect all of them, you’re going to see a slightly interesting event. It certainly is true that they were hard to find in the original games, and we wanted to address that by giving people more chances to find bottles by adding this extra one.

Does anyone knows what he means by that?

 

[Neiteio]

Interesting quote from Aonuma.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...da-eiji-aonuma-interview.aspx?PostPageIndex=2



Does anyone knows what he means by that?

I know about the seventh bottle, but I'm not sure what he means about seeing something interesting if you collect all seven.

 

[Joqu]

Interesting quote from Aonuma.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...da-eiji-aonuma-interview.aspx?PostPageIndex=2



Does anyone knows what he means by that?

Huh. Perhaps he just meant you get to see an interesting event by collecting the new bottle? I thought it was pretty cute.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Interesting quote from Aonuma.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...da-eiji-aonuma-interview.aspx?PostPageIndex=2



Does anyone knows what he means by that?

I collected all 7 and have clue what he's talking about

 

[Mr-Joker]

I was all set and ready to head off for the Third Dungeon but I decided to delay the trip to get a few more side quest out of the way.

Spoiler

I kinda feel bad for Mikau, who is just waiting to save the Zora race.

 

[BY2K]

OH, he might be referring to the new Side Quest to get the new bottle. Curing the guy's hangover.

 

[Molemitts]

No.

Link transcends space-time because he has the ocarina. The ocarina itself transcends space-time. And so do all of the special items, I.E. the masks, etc.

One Link. One set of items. One timeline. One destiny that is simply rewritten. No one is doomed. Time is simply reversed, and a new future takes place. This repeats until it's right.

By saying it's rewritten you are admitting to there being multiple timelines, just that the previous timeline is instead erased, which makes little sense. The time that did happen and that Link experienced and that all the people in that time period whose lives were effected by Link are now gone because you reversed time, which doesn't sound like a particularly nice fate either. Surely that time erased would be real by experience, right? Link experienced that time so it's real to him or the player, would that not make it a real timeline?

The argument basically comes down to your interpretation of time. The problem is that if you think time is like a river that means you believe in set events that the river flows though, but that can't be the case here as those events change each time you go back in time and do different tasks, some of them are changed just by the advent of time travel. You owning certain items when you time travel changes the future, which leads me to believe it's actually a multiverse.

All we're doing here is discussing the philosophy of time via the proxy of Majora's Mask. lmao

 

[Neiteio]

By saying it's rewritten you are admitting to there being multiple timelines, just that the previous timeline is instead erased, which makes little sense. The time that did happen and that Link experienced and that all the people in that time period whose lives were effected by Link are now gone because you reversed time, which doesn't sound like a particularly nice fate either. Surely that time erased would be real by experience, right? Link experienced that time so it's real to him or the player, would that not make it a real timeline?

The argument basically comes down to your interpretation of time. The problem is that if you think time is like a river that means you believe in set events that the river flows though, but that can't be the case here as those events change each time you go back in time and do different tasks, some of them are changed just by the advent of time travel. You owning certain items when you time travel changes the future, which leads me to believe it's actually a multiverse.

All we're doing here is discussing the philosophy of time via the proxy of Majora's Mask. lmao

You're taking my river analogy the wrong way. The idea is that what happens going down the river changes. But there is still only one river. When Link time-travels, it's just like rewinding footage, only he takes with him certain relics of what he found "downstream," relics that transcend time and space. He then winds up back at the start, and can "swim" differently going back down, causing different "ripple effects" in the "water." You see what I'm saying? This isn't a multiverse scenario. Those people downstream aren't destroyed when Link goes back upstream; they continue to exist and simply rewind to their starting state, minus any transcendental items Link wound up obtaining from them.

Also, I apologize for all of the quotation marks, these analogies are getting out of hand, LOL.

 

[BY2K]

You're taking my river analogy the wrong way. The idea is that what happens going down the river changes. But there is still only one river. When Link time-travels, it's just like rewinding footage, only he takes with him certain relics of what he found "downstream," relics that transcend time and space. He then winds up back at the start, and can "swim" differently going back down, causing different "ripple effects" in the "water." You see what I'm saying? This isn't a multiverse scenario. Those people downstream aren't destroyed when Link goes back upstream; they continue to exist and simply rewind to their starting state, minus any transcendental items Link wound up obtaining from them.

Also, I apologize for all of the quotation marks, these analogies are getting out of hand, LOL.

Who are you, Dr. Evil?

 

[Neiteio]

Who are you, Dr. Evil?

 

[zigg]

This "multiverse of moon-flattened Terminas" theory is depressing the hell out of me.

 

[Christopher]

Ok I guess at 13 you don't realise it but damn is this game tragic in just about everything...it really isn't scared of playing with death and the themes associated with it.

I mean everything is just somber and the characters main side and intermediate all have to deal with death either upcoming or being faced with it.

Grown up themes about!

I wish we could have got one last type of game in the Ocarina trilogy

Love this game - so tragic can we talk about spoilers here if not I'll be very vauge so do the heinous events of termina revert when link finishes his quest or does everythj g stay the same

 

[Molemitts]

You're taking my river analogy the wrong way. The idea is that what happens going down the river changes. But there is still only one river. When Link time-travels, it's just like rewinding footage, only he takes with him certain relics of what he found "downstream," relics that transcend time and space. He then winds up back at the start, and can "swim" differently going back down, causing different "ripple effects" in the "water." You see what I'm saying? This isn't a multiverse scenario. Those people downstream aren't destroyed when Link goes back upstream; they continue to exist and simply rewind to their starting state, minus any transcendental items Link wound up obtaining from them.

Also, I apologize for all of the quotation marks, these analogies are getting out of hand, LOL.

If time is just rewinded and all the people's lives and events are just rewinded then Link couldn't have actually gained the items and memories. Saying there are certain things that can transcend time seems like a cop out, but video game logic is generally full of cop outs so you wouldn't necessarily be wrong within the context of the game.

By rewinding time what happens to the people and events of the time you just rewinded? Do they just cease to exist? If so how did we really experience them? Presumably Link has memory from those erased times and if that's the case has that time really ceased to exist, if it was a thing that we have evidence of experiencing?

 

[Neiteio]

If time is just rewinded and all the people's lives and events are just rewinded then Link couldn't have actually gained the items and memories. Saying there are certain things that can transcend time seems like a cop out, but video game logic is generally full of cop outs so you wouldn't necessarily be wrong within the context of the game.

By rewinding time what happens to the people and events of the time you just rewinded? Do they just cease to exist? If so how did we really experience them? Presumably Link has memory from those erased times and if that's the case has that time really ceased to exist, if it was a thing that we have evidence of experiencing?

Link has the Ocarina of Time. He transcends time. The items he collects are magical. They transcend time, as well. Call it a "cop-out," but it's one of the conceits the narrative establishes. Link still experiences, and learns, because he is operating both in the timeline and outside of it. And no one else is affected (let alone "destroyed") because they are merely reversed to a prior point and then carry on (the same, or differently) from there.

The "multiple Termina" theory is stupid. If it were true, Link would be creating a worse problem and ultimately solving nothing. He would be cloning worlds only to be destroyed, which flies in the face of saving the world. It's most definitely not the author's intent.

 

[Christopher]

If time is just rewinded and all the people's lives and events are just rewinded then Link couldn't have actually gained the items and memories. Saying there are certain things that can transcend time seems like a cop out, but video game logic is generally full of cop outs so you wouldn't necessarily be wrong within the context of the game.

By rewinding time what happens to the people and events of the time you just rewinded? Do they just cease to exist? If so how did we really experience them? Presumably Link has memory from those erased times and if that's the case has that time really ceased to exist, if it was a thing that we have evidence of experiencing?

It's a video game.

 

[Neiteio]

Love this game - so tragic can we talk about spoilers here if not I'll be very vauge so do the heinous events of termina revert when link finishes his quest or does everythj g stay the same

This "multiverse of moon-flattened Terminas" theory is depressing the hell out of me.

No one ceases to exist. And no one is destroyed. It's just like rewinding video footage. Everyone goes back to their starting state at the Dawn of the First Day. Link is unaffected, though, and so are the key items on his person. He has the ocarina and is able to transcend time, traveling up and down its river, so to speak.

When you beat the game, you stop meddling with time because you've finally defeated Majora and lifted the curse on the land.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong person at first.

 

[tim_pkmn89]

It's a video game.

And books are books. People still analyze them.

 

[WrenchNinja]

It's most definitely not the author's intent.

Authorial intent doesn't really mean much.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Ok I guess at 13 you don't realise it but damn is this game tragic in just about everything...it really isn't scared of playing with death and the themes associated with it.

I mean everything is just somber and the characters main side and intermediate all have to deal with death either upcoming or being faced with it.

Grown up themes about!

I wish we could have got one last type of game in the Ocarina trilogy

Love this game - so tragic can we talk about spoilers here if not I'll be very vauge so do the heinous events of termina revert when link finishes his quest or does everythj g stay the same

Clock Town Day 3 is some depressing stuff. Seeing the guards shivering in fear, the entirely abandoned entertainment buildings and hotel, the scared out of his mind postman, stuff like that is really depressing to see. Romani ranch is a really depressing and sad area, Cremia has had so much thrown at her, it's odd for a Nintendo game really. It's sad to think about how happy all the Gorons get at seeing their hero and Lulu at seeing her lover and father (?) of her children. Because we know those people are dead for real and aren't coming back even if Link saves the world, so even if the world is saved the Gorons still lost their beloved hero and leader and Lulu is left without love and a father for her children. The death screams of the pirates who Skull Kid fools into looking for treasure in Great Bay Temple are unsettling (and out of the ordinary for a Zelda game). Mikau's final scene is a real tear jerker as well, actually that entire section starting with the ranch to get Epona to the end of Great Bay is a pretty emotional part of the game (and it certainly doesn't get more lighthearted after, with Ikana lol).

It also paints a pretty nice picture of a real world ending scenario. You have those that try to flee (but it's futile). You have people who know the danger is real, but don't flee because there's no point, and you have those that, despite the earthquakes and red sky and giant moon, do not even believe that anything is wrong. It's a diverse bunch of reactions to the situation and it comes together really well.

Anyway, the thought is that at the end, the Goddess of Times combines all of the "good" time lines together, so Romani isn't left a husk, Anju and Kafei marry, etc, although those that died and were turned into masks don't seem to come back.

Spoiler

Because we see the Deku Butler at his son's grave and Link filling in for Mikau at the carnival concert

 

[Jamix012]

And books are books. People still analyze them.

Books are intended to convey a story. Games are, at least in part, supposed to provide an enjoyable gameplay experience. When what might work in a story would not work in a game, some liberties must be taken. You could tell the story of Majora's Mask in a book and mask the inconsistencies, but it doesn't work for a game because the gameplay would be shit.

 

[Neiteio]

Authorial intent doesn't really mean much.

OK, what I mean is, the rules of the world. I think it's pretty clear the rules are arranged such that you ultimately save the day... and don't simply create 10,000 more worlds that are destroyed, thus achieving nothing.

Plus, I don't see what's so difficult to understand about rewinding a series of events. The game establishes Link can travel through time. Time, as in -a- timeline. Link can return to earlier events, and simply rewinds everything else back to that point. It's the same NPCs, the same world, just literally rewound to an earlier point.

They're never destroyed because Link never lets them be destroyed. Link never lets the timeline progress to that point. (Well, unless you just had to see the world end.)

 

[Molemitts]

Link has the Ocarina of Time. He transcends time. The items he collects are magical. They transcend time, as well. Call it a "cop-out," but it's one of the conceits the narrative establishes. Link still experiences, and learns, because he is operating both in the timeline and outside of it. And no one else is affected (let alone "destroyed") because they are merely reversed to a prior point and then carry on (the same, or differently) from there.

The "multiple Termina" theory is stupid. If it were true, Link would be creating a worse problem and ultimately solving nothing. It's most definitely not the author's intent.

Yeah, I don't think anyone intended the multiple crushed Terminas theory, but I'm trying to apply some kind of logic to the time travel in Majora's Mask. Some items transcending time could be internally consistent, but it doesn't explain what happens to the people of Termina when you reverse time, not to mention how the Termina you go back to isn't the same one you first arrived in as there are objects missing from that version of Termina.

Link probably doesn't know he's creating a worse problem. Even then he still needs to save at least one version of Termina to get Majora's Mask back to the Happy Mask Salesman so he can leave Termina. Besides, if you apply multiverse theory to to Majora's Mask there already an unlimited amount of Terminas that have been destroyed in an unlimited amount of ways, but that's besides the point.

If time is reversed the events that happened before time was reversed would cease to exist, yes or no?

 

[Neiteio]

Clock Town Day 3 is some depressing stuff. Seeing the guards shivering in fear, the entirely abandoned entertainment buildings and hotel, the scared out of his mind postman, stuff like that is really depressing to see. Romani ranch is a really depressing and sad area, Cremia has had so much thrown at her, it's odd for a Nintendo game really. It's sad to think about how happy all the Gorons get at seeing their hero and Lulu at seeing her lover and father (?) of her children. Because we know those people are dead for real and aren't coming back even if Link saves the world, so even if the world is saved the Gorons still lost their beloved hero and leader and Lulu is left without love and a father for her children. The death screams of the pirates who Skull Kid fools into looking for treasure in Great Bay Temple are unsettling (and out of the ordinary for a Zelda game). Mikau's final scene is a real tear jerker as well, actually that entire section starting with the ranch to get Epona to the end of Great Bay is a pretty emotional part of the game (and it certainly doesn't get more lighthearted after, with Ikana lol).

It also paints a pretty nice picture of a real world ending scenario. You have those that try to flee (but it's futile). You have people who know the danger is real, but don't flee because there's no point, and you have those that, despite the earthquakes and red sky and giant moon, do not even believe that anything is wrong. It's a diverse bunch of reactions to the situation and it comes together really well.

Anyway, the thought is that at the end, the Goddess of Times combines all of the "good" time lines together, so Romani isn't left a husk, Anju and Kafei marry, etc, although those that died and were turned into masks don't seem to come back.

Spoiler

Because we see the Deku Butler at his son's grave and Link filling in for Mikau at the carnival concert

The pirates don't die. They got swept up in a maelstrom, but you see them piloting their boat in the credits. They must've just washed up somewhere and continued on their way.

 

[Molemitts]

IT IS 2 AM

AAAAAAAaa

 

[Team Alucard]

Ok I guess at 13 you don't realise it but damn is this game tragic in just about everything...it really isn't scared of playing with death and the themes associated with it.

I mean everything is just somber and the characters main side and intermediate all have to deal with death either upcoming or being faced with it.

Right? I think the saddest dialogue is when you talk to Cremia and Romani on the final day (assuming you helped them). Cremia knows they're gonna die while Romani is completely ignorant and her typical happy self. Its so depressing. =(

 

[Neiteio]

Yeah, I don't think anyone intended the multiple crushed Terminas theory, but I'm trying to apply some kind of logic to the time travel in Majora's Mask. Some items transcending time could be internally consistent, but it doesn't explain what happens to the people of Termina when you reverse time, not to mention how the Termina you go back to isn't the same one you first arrived in as there are objects missing from that version of Termina.

Link probably doesn't know he's creating a worse problem. Even then he still needs to save at least one version of Termina to get Majora's Mask back to the Happy Mask Salesman so he can leave Termina. Besides, if you apply multiverse theory to to Majora's Mask there already an unlimited amount of Terminas that have been destroyed in an unlimited amount of ways, but that's besides the point.

If time is reversed the events that happened before time was reversed would cease to exist, yes or no?

I'm not sure if you're serious at this point. :-\

Picture a line. This line is time. Picture Link standing on the line. Link has the ocarina. The ocarina is a special item. It exists outside of time. It is beyond cause and effect. So when Link retrieves the ocarina, the timeline is revised. The timeline is revised so that from Day 1 onward, Skull Kid does not have the ocarina. Now Link travels along the line. He travels forward. He meets people. He collects items. The key items he collect become like Link, and like Link's ocarina. They transcend time. So the timeline is revised yet again, and those items are no longer in other people's possession when Link rewinds time.

And when it comes time to rewind time, everyone else on the timeline is literally just like video footage running in reverse. They rewind back to their starting states at the Dawn of the First Day. Only Link retains his knowledge, his experiences, and his items as the Hero of Time, the one who can travel up and down time's river.

 

[Christopher]

Clock Town Day 3 is some depressing stuff. Seeing the guards shivering in fear, the entirely abandoned entertainment buildings and hotel, the scared out of his mind postman, stuff like that is really depressing to see. Romani ranch is a really depressing and sad area, Cremia has had so much thrown at her, it's odd for a Nintendo game really. It's sad to think about how happy all the Gorons get at seeing their hero and Lulu at seeing her lover and father (?) of her children. Because we know those people are dead for real and aren't coming back even if Link saves the world, so even if the world is saved the Gorons still lost their beloved hero and leader and Lulu is left without love and a father for her children. The death screams of the pirates who Skull Kid fools into looking for treasure in Great Bay Temple are unsettling (and out of the ordinary for a Zelda game). Mikau's final scene is a real tear jerker as well, actually that entire section starting with the ranch to get Epona to the end of Great Bay is a pretty emotional part of the game (and it certainly doesn't get more lighthearted after, with Ikana lol).

It also paints a pretty nice picture of a real world ending scenario. You have those that try to flee (but it's futile). You have people who know the danger is real, but don't flee because there's no point, and you have those that, despite the earthquakes and red sky and giant moon, do not even believe that anything is wrong. It's a diverse bunch of reactions to the situation and it comes together really well.

Anyway, the thought is that at the end, the Goddess of Times combines all of the "good" time lines together, so Romani isn't left a husk, Anju and Kafei marry, etc, although those that died and were turned into masks don't seem to come back.

Spoiler

Because we see the Deku Butler at his son's grave and Link filling in for Mikau at the carnival concert

What a well thought out and enjoyable post thank you for typinf that

 

[WrenchNinja]

OK, what I mean is, the rules of the world. I think it's pretty clear the rules are arranged such that you ultimately save the day... and don't simply create 10,000 more worlds that are destroyed, thus achieving nothing.

Plus, I don't see what's so difficult to understand about rewinding a series of events. The game establishes Link can travel through time. Time, as in -a- timeline. Link can return to earlier events, and simply rewinds everything else back to that point. It's the same NPCs, the same world, just literally rewound to an earlier point.

They're never destroyed because Link never lets them be destroyed. Link never lets the timeline progress to that point. (Well, unless you just had to see the world end.)

Do you just want people to agree with your interpretation? Cause I do, but I don't see the multiple Termina idea as somehow invalid.

 

[Neiteio]

Do you just want people to agree with your interpretation? Cause I do, but I don't see the multiple Termina theory as somehow invalid.

Eh? I'm just explaining my stance.

 

[Alo81]

The whole game takes place in Mario's dream anyway so you don't need to justify it logically.

 

[Neiteio]

One should note, the whole game has a clock motif. Clocks are everywhere. And clock hands travel in one of two directions. Link just rewinds the clock. It's like if the clock hands were constantly moving toward midnight, but Link keeps grabbing the clock hands (the people, and their lives) and moving them back before they reach midnight.

Still the same clock, though, and still the same clock hands.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Eh? I'm just explaining my stance.

Sorry, it just reads like you're correcting people with head canon stuff.

 

[Neiteio]

Sorry, it just reads like you're correcting people with head canon stuff.

I apologize if it came off condescending. Not my intent.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I apologize if it came off condescending. Not my intent.

Nah, it's cool dude. I enjoy the video footage metaphors.

 

[Molemitts]

I'm not sure if you're serious at this point. :-\

Picture a line. This line is time. Picture Link standing on the line. Link has the ocarina. The ocarina is a special item. It exists outside of time. So when Link retrieves the ocarina, the timeline is revised. The timeline is revised so that from Day 1 onward, Skull Kid does not have the ocarina. Now Link travels along the line. He travels forward. He meets people. He collects items. The key items he collect become like Link, and like Link's ocarina. They transcend time. So the timeline is revised, so that those items are no longer in other people's possession when Link rewinds time. And when it comes time to rewind time, everyone else on the timeline is literally just like video footage running in reverse. They rewind back to their starting states at the Dawn of the First Day. Only Link retains his knowledge, his experiences, and his items as the Hero of Time, the one who can travel up and down time's river.

AAAaAAAAAA

Look. If you're saying there can be revisions to the single timeline you're admitting that timeline was once different and those differences have ceased to exist, but there's no reason for those differences to just not exist within any plain of understanding since we have evidence of multiple versions of those 3 days existing.

So the argument either comes down to multiple realities that all immediately disappear from any plain of existence, for no reason, despite there being evidence of them once existing, when you play the song of time. Or there being multiple realities that split off from your current timeline when you play the song of time.

Do you not get something I'm saying here? This is basically multiverse theory either way.

 

[Neiteio]

AAAaAAAAAA

Look. If you're saying there can be revisions to the single timeline you're admitting that timeline was once different and those differences have ceased to exist, but there's no reason for those differences to just not exist within any plain of understanding since we have evidence of multiple versions of those 3 days existing.

So the argument either comes down to multiple realities that all immediately disappear from any plain of existence, for no reason, despite there being evidence of them once existing, when you play the song of time. Or there being multiple realities that split off from your current timeline when you play the song of time.

Do you not get something I'm saying here? This is basically multiverse theory either way.

Link is changing the timeline — forwards and backwards. He changes it "backwards" when he collects items so that they no longer appear in the past. He can do this because he is the Hero of Time and this power extends to his items and traveling companion. And he changes everything "forward" by rewinding time to an earlier point so the world never ends.

That does not mean anything ceases to exist. Things simply run "backwards" to the prior point. Nor does it mean the timeline is cloned or an alternate timeline is created. Again, it's the same world and characters — they're just sent in reverse, minus any items they once had that are now in Link's possession.

Bottom line, this is just one timeline that Link changes but keeps rewinding before the moon crashes.

 

[MetalGuardian]

Neiteio, I still ask you...

What happens from Skull Kid's perspective in the first cycle?

He's at the top of the clock tower, his dark plan about to come to fruition. Fireworks are exploding in the sky, an annual celebration serving as stark contrast to the destruction about to unfold. Suddenly, a deku scrub clad in green reaches the top deck of the tower.

Skull Kid floats around, sizing him up... and then gets hit with a bubble. In his stunned confusion, he drops the Ocarina. The deku scrub picks it up, produces a set of pipes and...

What? In your interpretation of events, dear Neiteio, what does Skull Kid see after Deku Link plays the song of time?

I don't even know how to make sense of that scenario in your version:

Does Skull Kid then immediately see human Link rushing up the stairs to defeat him, get absorbed into the moon, and destroy the mask? If that's the case, then all of Link's deeds across every cycle would be happening simultaneously, and that makes far less sense than the multiverse explanation.

Does the Skull Kid who got hit by Deku Link's bubble cease to exist when the Song of Time is played? If so, everyone in that version of Termina is erased, even though it isn't via fiery moon destruction.

Does Skull Kid see Link vanish in front of him but keep existing? If so, he is still around to see his original apocalyptic plan to fruition.

What option other than those three listed is there? I don't give a flying fuck about Aonuma's intent - I'm sure he didn't have string theory in the front of his mind during a year of fervent game development.

But us as players making sense of this game's world... what other conclusions are we supposed to draw?

Your river explanation just doesn't work. Different things happen in each cycle, and if there is only ONE Termina, then only ONE cycle can be considered "canon"... which would be fine if the game could be completed in only one cycle. But it can't! Even one heart piece or one boss' remains pulled from a different cycle NECESSITATES multiple timelines, or else it doesn't make sense. Sure, the boss masks are "magic" in the sense that they can travel back in time with Link. But Link had to defeat that boss in the first place to get the mask... and when you travel back to the first day the boss whose mask you have is still alive and undefeated.

I would love to be proved wrong (no I wouldn't, because it makes the game ten times darker), but I can't see any other choice than to accept the only way any of this makes sense is if there is a new timeline created every time Link travels to day one.

 

[Oswen]

While I do agree with the "Link trascending time" version I'll actually play the devil's advocate here:

Wouldn't the multiple Terminas make more sense with how the general Zelda timeline works? If the Ocarina of Time really "rewinds" time then shouldn't the entire adult timeline (and the fallen hero timeline aswell I guess) from OoT be completely rewritten?

Finished the game today, I enjoyed it alot (excepet the last part, I hate that kind of "hide and seek"), getting to know all those characters makes this a very personal and emotional chapter.

 

[Molemitts]

Link is changing the timeline — forwards and backwards. It changes it "backwards" when he collects items so that they no longer appear in the past. And he changes it forward by rewinding time to an earlier point before the world ends.

That does not mean anything ceases to exist. Things simply ran "backwards" to the prior point. Nor does it mean the timeline is cloned. Again, it's the same world and characters, they just ran in reverse, minus any items they once had that are now in Link's possession.

Bottom line, this is just one timeline that Link changes but keeps rewinding before the moon crashes.

If you're rewinding the events in a reality by definition you are causing them to cease to exist. You are picking an end point from which the events in that timeline do not continue you are then erasing the events that came before that by reversing yourself back to the dawn of the first day. You a literally causing a timeline to cease to exist.

 

[braves01]

So swimming as a Zora in this game is kinda shit huh? Horrible camera problems even with the slower speed.

 

[Neiteio]

Neiteio, I still ask you...

What happens from Skull Kid's perspective in the first cycle?

He's at the top of the clock tower, his dark plan about to come to fruition. Fireworks are exploding in the sky, an annual celebration serving as stark contrast to the destruction about to unfold. Suddenly, a deku scrub clad in green reaches the top deck of the tower.

Skull Kid floats around, sizing him up... and then gets hit with a bubble. In his stunned confusion, he drops the Ocarina. The deku scrub picks it up, produces a set of pipes and...

What? In your interpretation of events, dear Neiteio, what does Skull Kid see after Deku Link plays the song of time?

I don't even know how to make sense of that scenario in your version:

Does Skull Kid then immediately see human Link rushing up the stairs to defeat him, get absorbed into the moon, and destroy the mask? If that's the case, then all of Link's deeds across every cycle would be happening simultaneously, and that makes far less sense than the multiverse explanation.

Does the Skull Kid who got hit by Deku Link's bubble cease to exist when the Song of Time is played? If so, everyone in that version of Termina is erased, even though it isn't via fiery moon destruction.

Does Skull Kid see Link vanish in front of him but keep existing? If so, he is still around to see his original apocalyptic plan to fruition.

What option other than those three listed is there? I don't give a flying fuck about Aonuma's intent - I'm sure he didn't have string theory in the front of his mind during a year of fervent game development.

But us as players making sense of this game's world... what other conclusions are we supposed to draw?

Your river explanation just doesn't work. Different things happen in each cycle, and if there is only ONE Termina, then only ONE cycle can be considered "canon"... which would be fine if the game could be completed in only one cycle. But it can't! Even one heart piece or one boss' remains pulled from a different cycle NECESSITATES multiple timelines, or else it doesn't make sense. Sure, the boss masks are "magic" in the sense that they can travel back in time with Link. But Link had to defeat that boss in the first place to get the mask... and when you travel back to the first day the boss whose mask you have is still alive and undefeated.

I would love to be proved wrong (no I wouldn't, because it makes the game ten times darker), but I can't see any other choice than to accept the only way any of this makes sense is if there is a new timeline created every time Link travels to day one.

The Skull Kid would have no recollection of what happened to his ocarina once Link retrieves it and revises the past such that Skull Kid no longer has it. His present would now be the equivalent of, "Didn't I have an ocarina? It's gone for some reason."

The giants are trapped, but once freed, they go back to being gods that transcend time (hence why it suffices to free them once). Majora's magic remains, though, so the bosses themselves are restored, along with their curse on the land.

The gods are effectively like an item, in a sense. Link retrieves them, and takes them with him. To use another analogy, upon time-traveling, the prisons and their wardens are back, and so is the shadow they cast upon the land. But the prison cell is empty. The prisoner is gone.

 

[Neiteio]

If you're rewinding the events in a reality by definition you are causing them to cease to exist. You are picking an end point from which the events in that timeline do not continue you are then erasing the events that came before that by reversing yourself back to the dawn of the first day. You a literally causing a timeline to cease to exist.

All you're ceasing to exist is the way events played out later in a given timeline.

Take a clock. This clock represents the world.

Look at the hands on this clock. The hands represent the people in the world.

You don't want the clock to hit midnight. Midnight represents the moon falling.

So you grab the hands and move them back.

But they're still the same hands.

And it's still the same clock.

 

[h8bit]

So swimming as a Zora in this game is kinda shit huh? Horrible camera problems even with the slower speed.

Honestly the one thing I was kind of disappointed with. Hate the speed decrease and navigating tighter corridors in dungeons with the mask on is just a pain.

 

[AzureTranquility95]

So swimming as a Zora in this game is kinda shit huh? Horrible camera problems even with the slower speed.

There's supposedly a way to swim like the old way without having to use the magic shield. Jury's still out on my end, I really enjoyed it in the original version outside of tight corridors, which were abundant in Great Gay Temple.

 

[Neiteio]

Anyways, I'm going fishing now.

Lord Chapu-Chapu calls to me.

 

[Molemitts]

All you're ceasing to exist is the way events played out later in a given timeline.

Take a clock. This clock represents the timeline.

Look at the hands on this clock. The hands represent the people in the timeline.

You don't want the clock to hit midnight. Midnight represents the moon falling.

So you grab the hands and move them back.

But they're still the same hands.

And it's still the same clock.

What makes up a timeline is the events and things that exist on that timeline, which you just admitted, cease to exist. Meaning that the timeline ceases to exists.

If you still don't get this then I'm done with this argument, sorry.

You equating a clock with the flow of time and it's not comparable to almost unlimited amount of variables that exist within the flow of time.

 

[Neiteio]

What makes up a timeline is the events and things that exist on that timeline, which you just admitted, cease to exist. Meaning that the timeline ceases to exists.

If you still don't get this then I'm done with this argument, sorry.

You equating a clock with the flow of time and it's not comparable to all the millions of variables that exist within the flow of time.

Yes, the events past 6 a.m. Day 1 cease to exist once he resets time. Time flows in reverse back to 6 a.m. Day 1. If you were to watch it from outside time, you'd see the people moving backwards, speaking backwards, water flowing backwards, shit that fell down falling up, etc., all the way back to 6 a.m. Day 1.

So they're not being destroyed. They were just rewound. Which is why I don't feel any concern when I time-travel. I'm just rewinding a tape.

...let's just agree to disagree if you still don't see what I'm saying.

 

[Enforced]

just saw this from miiverse. Made me chuckle.

 

[Molemitts]

Yes, the events past 6 a.m. Day 1 cease to exist once he resets time. Time flows in reverse back to 6 a.m. Day 1. If you were to watch it from outside time, you'd see the people moving backwards, speaking backwards, etc., all the way back to 6 a.m. Day 1.

So they're not being destroyed. They were just rewound. Which is why I don't feel any concern when I time-travel. I'm just rewinding a tape.

Then, in your scenario the timeline you just experienced ceases to exist for no reason other than because you don't like the idea of multiverse. There's no reason for those events to cease to exist, when we have evidence of that timeline existing. Therefore, the events should split into their own timeline, which unfortunately continues to exist without Link.

 

[Neiteio]

Then, in your scenario the timeline you just experienced ceases to exist for no reason other than because you don't like the idea of multiverse. There's no reason for those events to cease to exist, when we have evidence of that timeline existing. Therefore, the events should split into their own timeline.

Link carrying relics of those future events does not mean those events still have to exist in some alternate timeline. Link removed them from the timeline. They now exist with Link, outside of the timeline. They exist even though the events that led to them no longer exist when Link resets the clock. And when Link resets the clock, the past is resolved to function without those items where they were before. The timeline is changed, but its actors remain the same (I.E. not destroyed).

It's one of the game's narrative conceits, how the Hero of Time transcends time and so do the key items he collects. Every time-travel story has some devices to make it work. Look at BioShock Infinite with its constants and variables. They function as plot devices, but that's fine because it is the rules of the universe laid out for that story.