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Making A Murderer - Netflix 10-part documentary series - S1 now streaming on Netflix

Nafai1123

Banned
The police didn't know Avery abused Brendan. How could they tell him to tell his mother what they didn't know?

They did know, because Brendan talks to them about it before calling his mother. Also, if you read the actual transcript of the conversation, Brendan says nothing explicit about what Steven actually did to anyone. All he says is Steven "grabbed him somewhere he was uncomfortable."

And that's all beside the point, because what does that have to do with the murder and Brendan's supposed confession?
 

The Beard

Member
Dudes in here acting like James Patterson is some difficult high level reading lol.

For Brendan, anything more complex than Dr. Seuss would be difficult. The kid doesn't know what city he lives in, doesn't know what the word "inconsistent" means, and doesn't know the difference between a foot and a yard.

The thought of Brendan sitting down to read a 500 page novel is the only "lol" moment here.
 

IISANDERII

Member
You think he
killed her, planted her car, planted her bones, whispered info that only the killer would know into Brendan's ear, and then planted Avery's blood somehow in her car? Or do you believe he merely killed her elsewhere and let the cops do all the planting of evidence?
Because of "reasons"?
If by "reasons" you mean the huge list of motives that were present.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
For reference here's a picture of the garage.

BksecJy.jpg


Unless he set up some Dexter kill room, I doubt it occurred there.
 
Man, just read about how when Steve Avery was 20 he soaked his own cat in oil and gasoline and threw the poor thing into a fire...i cant really blame the police department for thinking on multiple ocassions that he was mentally capable of rape and murder.
 

aerts1js

Member
Man, just read about how when Steve Avery was 20 he soaked his own cat in oil and gasoline and threw the poor thing into a fire...i cant really blame the police department for thinking on multiple ocassions that he was mentally capable of rape and murder.

Yeah; I mean; that's a huge flag for me personally. A normal person does not do that. I'm still not 100% convinced he didn't do it. I just don't think there was enough legit evidence for a conviction.
 

Futureman

Member
Did they explain how the bone fragments were found in the quarry? I got the impression it was a very small amount of bone and it was found miles away from Avery's fire pit.
 

Kaiterra

Banned
This seems the most likely. Steven Avery may be guilty, but the police are as corrupt as fuck too.

To the point where they fucked with the investigation so much that Avery deserves to walk free whether he did it or not, because if we allow our system to be manipulated to that degree towards ANYBODY, guilty or not, we are allowing it to be manipulated to oppress the innocent as well. Like at the very least there should've been a mistrial and a mass suppression of evidence. Actually the more I think about it the more I think that should've been the outcome over a Not Guilty verdict.

Did they explain how the bone fragments were found in the quarry? I got the impression it was a very small amount of bone and it was found miles away from Avery's fire pit.

An easy explanation might be animals moving it, even if that'd be really convenient. It's enough to be unsure where the burning took place though.

Yeah; I mean; that's a huge flag for me personally. A normal person does not do that. I'm still not 100% convinced he didn't do it. I just don't think there was enough legit evidence for a conviction.

I would agree but eh... I don't equate that with serial killer animal torture behavior, it jives with stories I've heard living in rural areas where people who aren't really the best folks you've met need to make their own fun. Like it was appalling, but I dunno, I file it under dumb hick stuff more than anything. If it wasn't the family cat it probably wouldn't have even gotten called in. It is one reason I don't think Avery's a good person either way.

For Brendan, anything more complex than Dr. Seuss would be difficult. The kid doesn't know what city he lives in, doesn't know what the word "inconsistent" means, and doesn't know the difference between a foot and a yard.

The thought of Brendan sitting down to read a 500 page novel is the only "lol" moment here.

For Brendan it absolutely would be. There's nothing funny about it.

I don't think it's out of the question. You go to school, they make you read. You might not like it or entirely understand the book, but the point is he reads at a 4th grade level, not a kindergarten level, he's not illiterate. That said, the poster who mentioned it was more likely he watched the movie was probably on point. I wouldn't be surprised to find at all that he had to do a book report and picked a book for which he could just watch the movie, going through enough of the book to fake it. The funny thing is that if he's lying about the book or not, either way it goes towards his testimony being unreliable.
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
I see a lot of people suggesting that the person who killed her is the same person who then planted all of the evidence.

Her blood was in the car, and Colbourne ends up calling in the license plate a day or two before the car is found.

Is it not possible that he found her car, with her dead body inside, then he and Lenk planted everything?
 
Yeah; I mean; that's a huge flag for me personally. A normal person does not do that. I'm still not 100% convinced he didn't do it. I just don't think there was enough legit evidence for a conviction.

Exactly, there is a good chance he did do it. Just not in the fashion the police are claiming. Their inept police work would have left me as a juror voting not guily even though I thought I could very possibly be letting a murderer free.
 

Kaiterra

Banned
I see a lot of people suggesting that the person who killed her is the same person who then planted all of the evidence.

Her blood was in the car, and Colbourne ends up calling in the license plate a day or two before the car is found.

Is it not possible that he found her car, with her dead body inside, then he and Lenk planted everything?

I think that and/or Colburn finding the car on the lot in an illegal search are the most likely scenarios regarding their involvement. I think they planted the evidence but I don't really think the cops killed Theresa. It's possible that the car itself and perhaps the bones and other evidence were planted by another party too, if the actual killer was one of Steven's brothers or Tadych and/or Dassey.
 

So I read this link, and while it does absolutely open up my eyes to a few pieces of evidence that were withheld, it still doesn't really clear up the questions of this event at all.

-The author of this piece states that Steven threatened a female family member with a gun , but this is covered in the documentary. I also do feel its worth noting that all of Avery's violent criminal conduct (including the cat burning) occur before his 1985 arrest, and I haven't seen anything outside of Teresa Halbach's murder that suggests otherwise.

-The transcript covering the alleged sexual abuse of family members by Steven Avery is the most eye-opening thing in this piece. While the transcripts don't go into detail on what Avery did outside of horsing around, the sexual abuse is alluded to, but I would like to see more evidence in this regard before outright calling Steven Avery a sexual predator/deviant/pedophile, specifically because this allegation is coming from Brendan, and his testimony has already been proven to not be dependable.

-Without a solid timeline of events that day, I don't really think the Steven -> Teresa phonecalls are that significant. The fact was, these two were people who had a professional relationship. Teresa had been out to his property to take pictures of cars around 15 times up to that point, so they obviously had professional contact. Him calling her that day, a day she is scheduled to come out to meet him anyway, doesn't really ring any bells, even if two of those calls were *67'd. They had an appointment, she was scheduled to go to his place. Unless we can place these calls after the time of death, or after her phone was supposedly disabled (destroyed in the burn barrel), then I don't really find it compelling evidence for Avery's guilt.

-The biggest piece of evidence that the prosecution used in their case that isn't on the show is that Steven Avery's DNA evidence is found on the latch for the hood of Teresa's RAV4, and that Brendan's initial confession ( the one this article points out was not seemingly coerced) corroborates, in which Brendan states he helped move the RAV4, and that Steven opened up the hood & disabled the car battery. Mind you, this is the only piece of evidence that is supported by physical evidence at the scene, and lines up with Brendan's testimony.

I have a few issues with this piece, and it goes more into a reoccurring theme found with evidence discovery in this case, that many may have noticed. To me, it seems that physical evidence for pieces of Brendan's story were discovered only after one of his many confessions. Now, in the case of the RAV4 & the non-blood DNA (it is specifically sweat) on the hood latch, I don't really raise any eyebrows. There are numerous problems with Brendan's story, the order of events, and the physical evidence found, but just looking at this piece individually I don't really have a problem with it. It's when another 'convenient' discovery is found that I do.

The bullet that is found in Steven Avery's garage, the one that contains her blood, and that matches & was fired by the gun found hanging over Avery's bed, was only discovered AFTER Brendan submitted another confession which detailed taking Teresa to the garage & shooting her. Nevermind the fact that given the environment this allegedly occurred in, it would be nearly impossible to wipe down Teresa's DNA evidence here, we seemingly have a bullet that is completely out of place, just laying there with her DNA, and its found months AFTER the initial search party do a thorough & extensive investigation of his property. Its not the first time evidence just 'appears' in a location that was previously searched in this investigation, but if we're going to assume that a 3rd party is planting evidence alongside Brendan's testimony, then I have to assume that could've been the case with the RAV4 as well.

There is already suspicious physical evidence involving the RAV4, and the entire DNA kit for Steven Avery's 1985 has been proven to have been tampered with, which I assume includes more than just blood DNA. I also find it suspect that no other piece of evidence outside of his sweat is found underneath the hood of that car, if Brendan's initial confession is to be believed. If he went under there to disable a car battery, where are the fingerprints? Why is his DNA only found on the hood latch? And was the car battery even disabled?

-While some people would say that Teresa's other physical belongings being a part of Avery's burn pile is more damning against Steven, if the frame-up story is to be believed then we know that her possession were burned off-site, then transported over along with her corpse. I don't see why her other possession's wouldn't be a part of that initial fire.
 

The Beard

Member
I see a lot of people suggesting that the person who killed her is the same person who then planted all of the evidence.

Her blood was in the car, and Colbourne ends up calling in the license plate a day or two before the car is found.

Is it not possible that he found her car, with her dead body inside, then he and Lenk planted everything?

That is too ridiculous to believe IMO.

A more logical explanation would be Colburn was illegally searching Avery's property and found the SUV. Or he was given the vehicle info a day or 2 prior and wrote it down, then he sort of forgot what case that info was pertaining to, and called it in to double check.

Basically anything makes more sense than the cops finding Teresa's RAV4 with her body in the back of it, and then driving it to Stevens house to burn it. That would be way too risky to pull off, even for the police.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
That is too ridiculous to believe IMO.

A more logical explanation would be Colburn was illegally searching Avery's property and found the SUV. Or he was given the vehicle info a day or 2 prior and wrote it down, then he sort of forgot what case that info was pertaining to, and was called it in to double check.

Basically anything makes more sense than the cops finding Teresa's RAV4 with her body in the back of it, and then driving it to Stevens house to burn it. That would be way too risky to pull off, even for the police.

It's not that ridiculous if you consider they could've burned the body anywhere. There's no reason it needed to be done at the Avery property.

I don't find it that hard to believe that members of the Manitowoc police force, who had a history of hating the Avery's and who believed Steven Avery is a criminal, discovered the murder scene and suspected Steven. This, in combination with the ongoing lawsuit, convinced Coulbourne and Lenk to burn the body offsite, place his DNA evidence in the car, and move the car to the property to ensure his conviction. Then, once the car was discovered, they used their access to the property to relocate the bones and plant the key/bullet. The fact is the car was discovered as far as possible from the Avery homes (on a 40 acre plot), and was easily accessible from that access road.

The alternative (Coulbourne discovering it on the Avery property) means that Steven kills Teresa on the property, and yet for some reason still uses the car to transport her? Why? What reason would he have to use the car and leave her blood and DNA in the back of the RAV4? It makes no sense if she was actually killed on the property.
 

Dalek

Member
That is too ridiculous to believe IMO.

A more logical explanation would be Colburn was illegally searching Avery's property and found the SUV. Or he was given the vehicle info a day or 2 prior and wrote it down, then he sort of forgot what case that info was pertaining to, and called it in to double check.

Basically anything makes more sense than the cops finding Teresa's RAV4 with her body in the back of it, and then driving it to Stevens house to burn it. That would be way too risky to pull off, even for the police.

I've seen this suggestion and that he could have tipped the search party lady off to where it was-considering she immediately found the vehicle in the massive yard right off he bat.
 

The Beard

Member
It's not that ridiculous if you consider they could've burned the body anywhere. There's no reason it needed to be done at the Avery property.

I don't find it that hard to believe that members of the Manitowoc police force, who had a history of hating the Avery's and who believed Steven Avery is a criminal, discovered the murder scene and suspected Steven. This, in combination with the ongoing lawsuit, convinced Coulbourne and Lenk to burn the body offsite, place his DNA evidence in the car, and move the car to the property to ensure his conviction. Then, once the car was discovered, they used their access to the property to relocate the bones and plant the key/bullet. The fact is the car was discovered as far as possible from the Avery homes (on a 40 acre plot), and was easily accessible from that access road.

The alternative (Coulbourne discovering it on the Avery property) means that Steven kills Teresa on the property, and yet for some reason still uses the car to transport her? Why? What reason would he have to use the car and leave her blood and DNA in the back of the RAV4? It makes no sense if she was actually killed on the property.

No, I don't buy any theory were Teresa makes it off of the Avery property alive. Just think about it for a second. Once she leaves the property she could've been seen by dozens of people, including friends and family, for all the cops would know at that point. The cops find her body in the back of her RAV4 a few miles from the Avery property, days after she was last seen at Stevens house. Then they think to themselves, "I don't know who might have seen her, or talked to her since she left Stevens house, or who killed her, but let's frame that motherfucker! Grab the lighter fluid, let's burn her body and bring the bones to his house. I think I saw someone having a bonfire at the Avery property the night that she was there. It'll be perfect!"
 

Mikey Jr.

Member
I'm pretty sure Steve Avery did it. I mean, come on, its common sense.

Teresa has had interactions with Steve before. She has said she didn't want to go back there. So then she goes back, and Steve is one of the last people she sees, if not the last.

So then what happens if Steve didn't kill her? She goes to some other person after Steve, she gets killed then, then the murderer goes to the police and is like "I killed Teresa" and the police is like "Don't worry about it bro, we got dis' shit". So they figure out that on the day Teresa died, Steve had a fire going. So they devise a plan in that they break into evidence, steal Avery's blood, get the location of the car Teresa died in, plant some blood, then take her body, burn it, and during the night, sprinkle bones into the fire pit?

Really? Honestly, really?

edit: ^^^ Lol, exactly^^^
 

Dalek

Member
I'm pretty sure Steve Avery did it. I mean, come on, its common sense.

Teresa has had interactions with Steve before. She has said she didn't want to go back there. So then she goes back, and Steve is one of the last people she sees, if not the last.

So then what happens if Steve didn't kill her? She goes to some other person after Steve, she gets killed then, then the murderer goes to the police and is like "I killed Teresa" and the police is like "Don't worry about it bro, we got dis' shit". So they figure out that on the day Teresa died, Steve had a fire going. So they devise a plan in that they break into evidence, steal Avery's blood, get the location of the car Teresa died in, plant some blood, then take her body, burn it, and during the night, sprinkle bones into the fire pit?

Really? Honestly, really?

edit: ^^^ Lol, exactly^^^

I don't think that anyone believes this version of events. No one thinks that the killer turned himself in or that the police in fact know someone else did the crime and they covered it up.
 

TheYanger

Member
I'm pretty sure Steve Avery did it. I mean, come on, its common sense.

Teresa has had interactions with Steve before. She has said she didn't want to go back there. So then she goes back, and Steve is one of the last people she sees, if not the last.

So then what happens if Steve didn't kill her? She goes to some other person after Steve, she gets killed then, then the murderer goes to the police and is like "I killed Teresa" and the police is like "Don't worry about it bro, we got dis' shit". So they figure out that on the day Teresa died, Steve had a fire going. So they devise a plan in that they break into evidence, steal Avery's blood, get the location of the car Teresa died in, plant some blood, then take her body, burn it, and during the night, sprinkle bones into the fire pit?

Really? Honestly, really?

edit: ^^^ Lol, exactly^^^

I don't buy the theory that she was somehow terrified of the guy yet decided to go take pictures for him anyway. That makes no sense whatsoever. Like, if he was legitimately harassing her via phone calls WHY WOULD SHE GO. That takes some insane leaps of logic to me. How about the more realistic view: she probably thought he was kind of annoying, at worst.

At the end of the day, whether he committed the crime or not is irrelevent, the burden of proof is on the DA and the evidence they presented in court was shoddy as fuck. Deliberations that fast blow my mind in a case that complicated. No matter how you slice it "We think he did it" when all of the physical evidence contradicts itself in every way should lead to not guilty. This goes even moreso for Brendan's case, where, even if he didn't sound coerced at all, a confession that DIRECTLY contradicts every shred of evidence you have is not at all reasonable to convict someone. That's like textbook reasonable doubt. If what he said happened happened, some evidence would support it.
 

Futureman

Member
I don't remember them saying anything about Teresa being afraid of Steve? What episode was that? I admit I may have stepped out of the room at some points.

I remember the part about her receiving weird/harassing calls, but it was only touched on briefly by her friend who offered to intervene but she said no. The way that part played it felt like Teresa didn't know who the calls were coming from either.
 
I'm pretty sure Steve Avery did it. I mean, come on, its common sense.

Teresa has had interactions with Steve before. She has said she didn't want to go back there. So then she goes back, and Steve is one of the last people she sees, if not the last.

So then what happens if Steve didn't kill her? She goes to some other person after Steve, she gets killed then, then the murderer goes to the police and is like "I killed Teresa" and the police is like "Don't worry about it bro, we got dis' shit". So they figure out that on the day Teresa died, Steve had a fire going. So they devise a plan in that they break into evidence, steal Avery's blood, get the location of the car Teresa died in, plant some blood, then take her body, burn it, and during the night, sprinkle bones into the fire pit?

Really? Honestly, really?

edit: ^^^ Lol, exactly^^^

My personal theory is that if he didn't do it, he was framed by both the police and possibly Scott Tadych. It makes the most sense to me and really wouldn't be that hard. It would also explain the really hard to explain evidence that exists if Steve did do it, like the bones in the quarry pit.
 

UFO

Banned
No, I don't buy any theory were Teresa makes it off of the Avery property alive. Just think about it for a second. Once she leaves the property she could've been seen by dozens of people, including friends and family, for all the cops would know at that point. The cops find her body in the back of her RAV4 a few miles from the Avery property, days after she was last seen at Stevens house. Then they think to themselves, "I don't know who might have seen her, or talked to her since she left Stevens house, or who killed her, but let's frame that motherfucker! Grab the lighter fluid, let's burn her body and bring the bones to his house. I think I saw someone having a bonfire at the Avery property the night that she was there. It'll be perfect!"

At what point? By the time the car was found it had been about 4 days and no one had come forth with any information or said they've seen her. The burned bones weren't found until well after that, after the cops had complete control of Avery's property. I really don't think the cops would have participated in the burning itself, but it's not out of question to think they found the bones at the quarry and transported them to Avery's fire pit to strengthen their case.

I don't remember them saying anything about Teresa being afraid of Steve? What episode was that? I admit I may have stepped out of the room at some points.

I remember the part about her receiving weird/harassing calls, but it was only touched on briefly by her friend who offered to intervene but she said no. The way that part played it felt like Teresa didn't know who the calls were coming from either.

Came from Reddit I believe.
 

Jerm411

Member
I'm pretty sure Steve Avery did it. I mean, come on, its common sense.

Teresa has had interactions with Steve before. She has said she didn't want to go back there. So then she goes back, and Steve is one of the last people she sees, if not the last.

So then what happens if Steve didn't kill her? She goes to some other person after Steve, she gets killed then, then the murderer goes to the police and is like "I killed Teresa" and the police is like "Don't worry about it bro, we got dis' shit". So they figure out that on the day Teresa died, Steve had a fire going. So they devise a plan in that they break into evidence, steal Avery's blood, get the location of the car Teresa died in, plant some blood, then take her body, burn it, and during the night, sprinkle bones into the fire pit?

Really? Honestly, really?

edit: ^^^ Lol, exactly^^^

It's about as believable as a guy who served 18 years wrongfully in prison getting another shot at life and is in a slam dunk case to be awarded 35-40 mil. killing a woman with no motive mere days or weeks before said judgment...leaving key evidence all over his property including the vehicle to the point where everything makes him out as the only suspect...all while involving his mentally deficit nephew who can't keep quiet or keep his stories straight.

Honestly.....really?
 

Kaiterra

Banned
Teresa has had interactions with Steve before. She has said she didn't want to go back there. So then she goes back, and Steve is one of the last people she sees, if not the last.

Have we actually heard this from anyone who isn't Ken Kratz or quoting Ken Kratz?
 

Dalek

Member
It's about as believable as a guy who served 18 years wrongfully in prison getting another shot at life and is in a slam dunk case to be awarded 35-40 mil. killing a woman with no motive mere days or weeks before said judgment...leaving key evidence all over his property including the vehicle to the point where everything makes him out as the only suspect...all while involving his mentally deficit nephew who can't keep quiet or keep his stories straight.

Honestly.....really?

A man who commits a murder in his bedroom and garage, meticulously scrubs all DNA evidence from both rooms-and then leaves her bones in a bonfire right beside his house. Makes total sense.
 
A man who commits a murder in his bedroom and garage, meticulously scrubs all DNA evidence from both rooms-and then leaves her bones in a bonfire right beside his house. Makes total sense.

Don't forget drives the victims RAV4 right by the car crusher, that he knows how to operate by himself, and instead of destroying it he just covers it up with branches. Maybe he wanted to keep it as memorabilia. Drive it around the salvage yard for fun.

I just don't know how a jury can convict with such inconsistencies.
 

EthanC

Banned
It's about as believable as a guy who served 18 years wrongfully in prison getting another shot at life and is in a slam dunk case to be awarded 35-40 mil. killing a woman with no motive mere days or weeks before said judgment...leaving key evidence all over his property including the vehicle to the point where everything makes him out as the only suspect...all while involving his mentally deficit nephew who can't keep quiet or keep his stories straight.

Honestly.....really?

Yeah, let's pretend all the accurate information about what happened that came from Brendan he magically just guessed. Read his full interview transcripts. He knew shit that only a person involved would know. He wasn't fed the info. He knew it. And the vast majority of the incriminating info the people making the documentary left out. Gee, I wonder why they'd do that.
 
For me at least, the finding of the car key was the most insanely difficult thing to believe.

If you don't buy that story, then everything else on the prosecution side becomes suspect.

Monotawk involved the neighbouring county to do the investigation in an attempt to make things look at arms length, neighbouring county cops searched multiple times, and those guys actually said the key was not there - not missed, but NOT there - then, two cops *from monotawk* county somehow get involved, and find it in plain view? with sweat on it (that was easily available to them because they had Steve in custody by that time)? seriously? thats what I saw in the documentary. Was that a biased view of the key, is there a different explanation for the key that makes it less likely to be planted?

if it was planted then the other DNA links can reasonably suspected of being planted as well, and at that point there is reasonable doubt that they have the correct killer. End of story. Nothing further to say.
 

Dalek

Member
Yeah, let's pretend all the accurate information about what happened that came from Brendan he magically just guessed. Read his full interview transcripts. He knew shit that only a person involved would know. He wasn't fed the info. He knew it. And the vast majority of the incriminating info the people making the documentary left out. Gee, I wonder why they'd do that.

Like such as?
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Way too many of you are saying the conviction was correct simply because you think Steven Avery was more likely to be the killer than other alternatives. That's not how you convict someone. You're not playing odds. The prosecution has the burden of proof. Did the prosecution prove its case within a reasonable doubt or not? That's the only question a jury should be weighing. Sitting there saying that other theories are equally or marginally more unlikely than the prosecution's isn't a justifiable reason to convict.
 
And the vast majority of the incriminating info the people making the documentary left out.

Are you looking at something I've not seen? i read the "list of things the doc left out" news report and it was very unimpressive. Lets see the points that stuck with me: He had porn, handcuffs, and his gf phoned a complaint about him once. He phoned the auto trader girl a few times. The bones were mixed with tire belts (doc didn't leave that out). He was sleazy to her in the past. He booked her using a relatives name, not his (but the car was his relatives car).

There was nothing in that list that made me thing: wow why did they purposely leave that out, and certainly nothing like a "vast majority of the incriminating info", but maybe you have a better list.

Perhaps you can bullet point it and write a better news article: "Vast majority of incriminating info left out of Documentary - List". Maybe the "list of things the documentary left out" article of a few days ago is already incorrect, and could be much more impressive than it is.
 

Kaiterra

Banned
Way too many of you are saying the conviction was correct simply because you think Steven Avery was more likely to be the killer than other alternatives. That's not how you convict someone. You're not playing odds. The prosecution has the burden of proof. Did the prosecution prove its case within a reasonable doubt or not? That's the only question a jury should be weighing. Sitting there saying that other theories are equally or marginally more unlikely than the prosecution's isn't a justifiable reason to convict.

Thank you
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
Like such as?

He keeps bringing up the testimony, then quotes it, but then omits the fact that the police had already fed Brenden that information in previous interviews.

He's either not aware that he has the timelines of when the interviews took place backwards, or he's being willfully obstinate.

I'm leaning towards the latter because he has been corrected on the timelines of Brenden's interviews at least twice in this very thread and just brought it up again.
 
Way too many of you are saying the conviction was correct simply because you think Steven Avery was more likely to be the killer than other alternatives. That's not how you convict someone. You're not playing odds. The prosecution has the burden of proof. Did the prosecution prove its case within a reasonable doubt or not? That's the only question a jury should be weighing. Sitting there saying that other theories are equally or marginally more unlikely than the prosecution's isn't a justifiable reason to convict.

I wanna take this and go one further - how come we're the ones correctly identifying other suspicious individuals that weren't even investigated in this issue? Just because Steven Avery was the one on trial, doesn't mean he's the most likely to do it, or the only one who could've possibly done it, and there are other suspicious people in this case who weren't even considered.

In fact, the defense team wasn't even allowed to present an alternative suspect as to who it could've been!
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
Watching this show just strengthens my thoughts that every person that gets jury duty should be legally required to watch "Twelve Angry Men" before serving.
 

ZQQLANDER

Member
I wanna take this and go one further - how come we're the ones correctly identifying other suspicious individuals that weren't even investigated in this issue? Just because Steven Avery was the one on trial, doesn't mean he's the most likely to do it, or the only one who could've possibly done it, and there are other suspicious people in this case who weren't even considered.

I think you are assuming here. Unless you have access to the case file you can't definitely say law enforcement didn't look at other suspects. Who knows who the investigators were looking at during the first 24-48 hours; before the SUV was discovered.
 

The Beard

Member
I wanna take this and go one further - how come we're the ones correctly identifying other suspicious individuals that weren't even investigated in this issue? Just because Steven Avery was the one on trial, doesn't mean he's the most likely to do it, or the only one who could've possibly done it, and there are other suspicious people in this case who weren't even considered.

In fact, the defense team wasn't even allowed to present an alternative suspect as to who it could've been!

Who? Who could've killed Teresa on Avery's property, burned her body 20ft from Avery's front door, and burned her cell phone and purse right outside Avery's window? Who could've put Avery's blood in Teresa's car and his sweat on the hood? Who could've pulled all of this off on Avery's property without 1 witness? Who could've timed this murder so perfectly to where it appears that Steven was the very last person to see her, and do it on the same night he had a bonfire? Who could've gotten to her before she was able to make a call or receive a call after driving away from Avery?
 

Kaiterra

Banned
I think you are assuming here. Unless you have access to the case file you can't definitely say law enforcement didn't look at other suspects. Who knows who the investigators were looking at during the first 24-48 hours; before the SUV was discovered.

We know that less than half an hour after the SUV was discovered, law enforcement was talking about getting Steven in custody, and we know that for at least one of his appeals, Steven's lawyers submitted several alternate suspects that were not investigated as cause for the case to be retried.

Who? Who could've killed Teresa on Avery's property, burned her body 20ft from Avery's front door, and burned her cell phone and purse right outside Avery's window? Who could've put Avery's blood in Teresa's car and his sweat on the hood? Who could've pulled all of this off on Avery's property without 1 witness? Who could've timed this murder so perfectly to where it appears that Steven was the very last person to see her, and do it on the same night he had a bonfire? Who could've gotten to her before she was able to make a call or receive a call after driving away from Avery?

Steven's brothers and his brother-in-law and Brendan's brother all had access to the property and no credible alibis for that time and all had motive to frame Steven.
 

j0hnnix

Member
Yeah, let's pretend all the accurate information about what happened that came from Brendan he magically just guessed. Read his full interview transcripts. He knew shit that only a person involved would know. He wasn't fed the info. He knew it. And the vast majority of the incriminating info the people making the documentary left out. Gee, I wonder why they'd do that.


He knew what exactly? The kid had no straight story. Did you notice the kids body language? He was pulling stuff from what the investigators were telling him.. "Good boy, pat on head"..
 

UFO

Banned
Who? Who could've killed Teresa on Avery's property, burned her body 20ft from Avery's front door, and burned her cell phone and purse right outside Avery's window?

You're just making assumptions that it happened right outside his window. On the contrary there's evidence that the bones were moved, and add to that that the cops who discovered the bones, instead of calling in the right people to examine the remains, carelessly dug them up with a shovel and dumped them into a box, so that it would be impossible to determine if that was the original burn site?

Who could've put Avery's blood in Teresa's car and his sweat on the hood? Who could've pulled all of this off on Avery's property without 1 witness?

Lenk and Colborn. You know, the 2 manitowoc country officers, who were the main focus of the lawsuit against the county, the same 2 officers who were not even supposed to be at the crime scene because of a conflict of interest, the same officers who found both the keys and the bullet after no one else had found them during countless searches?

Who could've timed this murder so perfectly to where it appears that Steven was the very last person to see her, and do it on the same night he had a bonfire? Who could've gotten to her before she was able to make a call or receive a call after driving away from Avery?

The timing isn't nearly as critical as you make it seem. There was a least a 3 or 4 hour window when nobody would have been wondering about her disappearance. And who's to say that she didn't call anyone? She had voice messages deleted from her phone after she went missing, what was that about?
 
Who?

The point of a trial is not to establish who, but to prove BRD the accused, about to spend their life in jail, was the murderer.
You don't convict someone based on not having another suspect,

With the total conviction by the authorities he was going to go down for this, nobody with any resources was even thinking of other possibilities. The first miscarriage, repeated again.

And by the way you are assuming all individuals associated with the investigation are incapable of lying. It would only take a few to have quietly perverted things, the rest are just the machinery.
 

The Beard

Member
We know that less than half an hour after the SUV was discovered, law enforcement was talking about getting Steven in custody, and we know that for at least one of his appeals, Steven's lawyers submitted several alternate suspects that were not investigated as cause for the case to be retried.



Steven's brothers and his brother-in-law and Brendan's brother all had access to the property and no credible alibis for that time and all had motive to frame Steven.

What was their motive? And how did they get his blood and sweat on Teresa's car? Was Steven's sister in on it too, or did her husband manage to pull off the perfect frame job without her even lifting an eyebrow? Did they also coach Brendan to frame Steven?
 

Kaiterra

Banned
Who?

The point of a trial is not to establish who, but to prove BRD the accused, about to spend their life in jail, was the murderer.
You don't convict someone based on not having another suspect,

Thankfully real life is not Phoenix Wright.

What was their motive? And how did they get his blood and sweat on Teresa's car? Was Steven's sister in on it too, or did her husband manage to pull off the perfect frame job without her even lifting an eyebrow? Did they also coach Brendan to frame Steven?

Maybe we'd have answers to any of your questions if the authorities bothered investigating any suspects other than Steven. You're operating from a position STARTING FROM the case built against Steven. They were starting from ZERO and still arrived at Steven BEFORE any evidence other than the truck and Theresa visiting the property existed.
 
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