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[Frank the Great]

This was really fascinating to watch as an attorney. Here are some of my thoughts.

Are Wisconsin's judges elected? If so, that would explain a lot. At the very least,i feel that Dassey's motion for a new trial should have been granted. His first attorney was fucking terrible and blatantly screwed him over. I'm a civil lawyer but I'm pretty sure that shit would never ever fly here in NJ. He also has a terrible face and a stupid smirk. While watching I was certain Dassey would get a new trial, it seemed so obvious to me. I have a feeling he will get his relief in federal court.

Strang and Buting almost make me regret not taking that public defender job I was offered. Great guys and great attorneys.

How can Katz say in the Avery closing that the jury can only either decide that Avery killed Halbach or that the police framed him? That seems a blatant misstatement of the standard designed to confuse the jury. The jury could find that the State failed to meet is burden while not finding that Avery was framed . . . I wonder what happened there, if the defense objected and the documentary just didn't go into it.

Finally, I have no opinion on whether both or either defendants were guilty. The State's cases seemed terrible though and I think it really speaks to how the cards are stacked against individuals in the justice system.

 

[Kaiterra]

Are Wisconsin's judges elected? If so, that would explain a lot.

Yes they are.

 

[chicko1983]

Who? Who could've killed Teresa on Avery's property, burned her body 20ft from Avery's front door, and burned her cell phone and purse right outside Avery's window? Who could've put Avery's blood in Teresa's car and his sweat on the hood? Who could've pulled all of this off on Avery's property without 1 witness? Who could've timed this murder so perfectly to where it appears that Steven was the very last person to see her, and do it on the same night he had a bonfire? Who could've gotten to her before she was able to make a call or receive a call after driving away from Avery?

The Dasseys.

Only themselves are their alibis, and they have a clear hatred of Steven.

My guess is they killed her and burnt her in the quarry and then reported there was a suspicious car on the property to Colbourn (If I recall, Steven's sister in law is friends with Colbourn's wife from the 1985 trial, hence why he rang the number plate into dispatch).

When the cops are searching for evidence on their 8 day search, they realise they do not have any evidence to directly put Steven Avery as the murderer (you generally need a motive, a body and a weapon to prove beyond reasonable doubt). They find the body in the quarry and move it to Steven's pit to try and make it more clear that Steven did it. Also, they took blood from the evidence and used that to put in the car. They also then planted the key and bullet in the garage. Also, I would be inclined not to believe the results of either the DNA or EDTA tests, given the testimony of the people who conducted those tests in court.

My opinion is that the Dassey's killed her. However, the cops believe Steven did it and corrupted and planted evidence against him when they realised, during their search, that they didn't have enough.

There is reasonable doubt that Steven did it, look at all the debate in this thread, hence he should not have been found guilty.

 

[Frank the Great]

Yes they are.

Thanks for the confirmation. I suspected this just from watching the documentary without knowing anything else.

Elected judges are the worst. The fucking worst. What a terrible idea.

 

[Kaiterra]

Thanks for the confirmation. I suspected this just from watching the documentary without knowing anything else.

Elected judges are the worst. The fucking worst. What a terrible idea.

Yep. The most recent judge election here in Marathon County was basically like... One candidate, a former prosecutor, had ads and newspaper columns about being tough on crime and justice for the victims and I've put so many bad guys away blah blah blah and her opponent, a defense attorney, built his campaign on being fair and carrying out the law equally etc. and well uh, guess who won?

 

[JetBlackPanda]

It's hard for me to believe Steven would murder someone right after his lawsuit was getting off the ground, leave the car on his own property and leave bones right outside his trailer.

Ontop of that almost every peice of evidence is tainted in some way and every person involved with finding evidence was involved with Steves lawsuit and depositions.

Like HOLY shit.

 

[ZQQLANDER]

We know that less than half an hour after the SUV was discovered, law enforcement was talking about getting Steven in custody, and we know that for at least one of his appeals, Steven's lawyers submitted several alternate suspects that were not investigated as cause for the case to be retried.

Getting Avery into custody after finding the SUV on his property is SOP I would think. From that point on the investigation is wholly geared toward Avery. I imagine Teresa's ex-boyfriend and current roommate were considered suspects initially.

Who were these alternate suspects that Steven's lawyer's proposed? Just because law enforcement didn't investigate these alternate suspects doesn't mean that they didn't consider other, additional suspects. I remember Avery's lawyers submitting the plea, but I don't actually remember in the documentary investigators coming out and saying"suspect ABC and XYZ were not investigated."

 

[Kaiterra]

Getting Avery into custody after finding the SUV on his property is SOP I would think.

Except he was not the sole owner of the salvage yard. It wasn't strictly found on his property, just property he had access to.

Who were these alternate suspects that Steven's lawyer's proposed? Just because law enforcement didn't investigate these alternate suspects doesn't mean that they didn't consider other, additional suspects. I remember Avery's lawyers submitting the plea, but I don't actually remember in the documentary investigators coming out and saying"suspect ABC and XYZ were not investigated."

His brothers (who both had 1/3 stake in the salvage yard) and Tadych and Bobby Dassey as covered in a previous post.

 

[Beerman462]

Pretty suspicious that DNA is what got Avery out of prison for a crime he didn't commit.

Avery's DNA kit from that same case is proven to be tampered with and oh by the way the two officers that aren't supposed to be involved knew about it.

All of a sudden Avery's DNA is in her car, on the hood latch and on her keys. No finger prints, no hair, just sweat and blood for DNA.

 

[Frank the Great]

Getting Avery into custody after finding the SUV on his property is SOP I would think. From that point on the investigation is wholly geared toward Avery. I imagine Teresa's ex-boyfriend and current roommate were considered suspects initially.

Who were these alternate suspects that Steven's lawyer's proposed? Just because law enforcement didn't investigate these alternate suspects doesn't mean that they didn't consider other, additional suspects. I remember Avery's lawyers submitting the plea, but I don't actually remember in the documentary investigators coming out and saying"suspect ABC and XYZ were not investigated."

I'm pretty sure they asked whether the ex-boyfriend was investigated, and the investigator said he was never a suspect.

 

[EthanC]

This was really fascinating to watch as an attorney. Here are some of my thoughts.

Are Wisconsin's judges elected? If so, that would explain a lot. At the very least,i feel that Dassey's motion for a new trial should have been granted. His first attorney was fucking terrible and blatantly screwed him over. I'm a civil lawyer but I'm pretty sure that shit would never ever fly here in NJ. He also has a terrible face and a stupid smirk. While watching I was certain Dassey would get a new trial, it seemed so obvious to me. I have a feeling he will get his relief in federal court.

Strang and Buting almost make me regret not taking that public defender job I was offered. Great guys and great attorneys.

How can Katz say in the Avery closing that the jury can only either decide that Avery killed Halbach or that the police framed him? That seems a blatant misstatement of the standard designed to confuse the jury. The jury could find that the State failed to meet is burden while not finding that Avery was framed . . . I wonder what happened there, if the defense objected and the documentary just didn't go into it.

Finally, I have no opinion on whether both or either defendants were guilty. The State's cases seemed terrible though and I think it really speaks to how the cards are stacked against individuals in the justice system.

It's very telling that the Innocence Project told Avery to essentially fuck off. They're not a weak-kneed group and would jump at the chance to embarrass the police twice in a row over the same guy. They ran from Avery after seeing the evidence and all the statements that were made. Says a lot.

I also thought Brendan would get a new trial. I want him to have a new one. Just to put any doubt to rest of what his role was in the murder. I don't think the cops who questioned him did anything wrong, but his first attorney really screwed him. And even as guilty as I think he is, he deserved better than that.

 

[PopeReal]

Getting Avery into custody after finding the SUV on his property is SOP I would think. From that point on the investigation is wholly geared toward Avery. I imagine Teresa's ex-boyfriend and current roommate were considered suspects initially.

Who were these alternate suspects that Steven's lawyer's proposed? Just because law enforcement didn't investigate these alternate suspects doesn't mean that they didn't consider other, additional suspects. I remember Avery's lawyers submitting the plea, but I don't actually remember in the documentary investigators coming out and saying"suspect ABC and XYZ were not investigated."

The SUV was found on Avery property. More than Steven lived there.

 

[The Beard]

You're just making assumptions that it happened right outside his window. On the contrary there's evidence that the bones were moved, and add to that that the cops who discovered the bones, instead of calling in the right people to examine the remains, carelessly dug them up with a shovel and dumped them into a box, so that it would be impossible to determine if that was the original burn site?



Lenk and Colborn. You know, the 2 manitowoc country officers, who were the main focus of the lawsuit against the county, the same 2 officers who were not even supposed to be at the crime scene because of a conflict of interest, the same officers who found both the keys and the bullet after no one else had found them during countless searches?



The timing isn't nearly as critical as you make it seem. There was a least a 3 or 4 hour window when nobody would have been wondering about her disappearance. And who's to say that she didn't call anyone? She had voice messages deleted from her phone after she went missing, what was that about?

No, not really. I'm basing this off the fact that Steven had a bonfire right outside his house once Teresa was "gone". The fact that Brendan said he saw body parts in his first interview (yes, his first). The fact that the fire was so hot that her bones were intertwined with steel from the tires. Teresa's body wasn't quickly burned in some little weenie roast fire and transported. She was burned in a hot as fuck fire (you know, like a bonfire). Guess who had a bonfire right outside his house complete with tires?

Her Cingular phone records? I don't think they ever determined for sure if messages were deleted. Her ex said he might have deleted 1 or more. Why would he do this? Have you ever left a message on someone's phone that you're worried about? It can be pretty cringey to listen to yourself. He could've deleted his own message, he could've deleted a blank message, he could've deleted no messages.

What could've been the "smoking gun" message that would've been deleted? "Hi Teresa, this is your ex and I'm fucking pissed off. I heard you were going to be working at the Avery's again. See you there!"

 

[Infernostew]

Thanks for the confirmation. I suspected this just from watching the documentary without knowing anything else.

Elected judges are the worst. The fucking worst. What a terrible idea.

Yup. For the West Memphis 3 case, they had to vote that judge into Arkansas State Senate so the case could get a new judge which would have allowed them a new trial had they not forced to take Alford pleas due to Damien's problems in prison.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

It's very telling that the Innocence Project told Avery to essentially fuck off. They're not a weak-kneed group and would jump at the chance to embarrass the police twice in a row over the same guy. They ran from Avery after seeing the evidence and all the statements that were made. Says a lot.

I also thought Brendan would get a new trial. I want him to have a new one. Just to put any doubt to rest of what his role was in the murder. I don't think the cops who questioned him did anything wrong, but his first attorney really screwed him. And even as guilty as I think he is, he deserved better than that.

He's back on their website.

...
The investigators did nothing wrong...? An underaged kid with low intelligence was interrogated and misled without a lawyer or a responsible adult present...? I'm no lawyer but the law professionals who've commented on that bit completely agree that was fucked. To go from admitting to a rape and murder to worrying about missing Wrestlemania should be telling enough that this kid clearly isn't in the right frame of mind.

 

[ZQQLANDER]

Except he was not the sole owner of the salvage yard. It wasn't strictly found on his property, just property he had access to.



His brothers (who both had 1/3 stake in the salvage yard) and Tadych and Bobby Dassey as covered in a previous post.

I understand that, but as the last known person to see her, it isn't that strange to be honest.

Edit: It isn't strange that law enforcement wanted to bring Steven in. Also a little disconcerting other Averys/Dasseys weren't considered. That still doesn't mean NONE other suspects were considered.

 

[The Beard]

I understand that, but as the last known person to see her, it isn't that strange to be honest.

It's murder investigation 101. You don't ignore the last person to see the victim alive, and just walk right past him in search of the killer.

 

[Infernostew]

It's murder investigation 101. You don't ignore the last person to see the victim alive, and just walk right past him in search of the killer.

Isn't murder investigation 101, usually the person who commits the murder is a family member, friend or SO (ex or current)?

 

[ZQQLANDER]

Isn't murder investigation 101, usually the person who commits the murder is a family member, friend or SO (ex or current)?

That's why I wouldn't be surprised if investigators looked at Teresa's ex-boyfriend and roommate during the first 24 hours.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Isn't murder investigation 101, usually the person who commits the murder is a family member, friend or SO (ex or current)?

It is. The last person alive isn't always the best if you have no time line. At best you're guessing, which is why the tunnel vision is brought up so much.

That's why I wouldn't be surprised if investigators looked at Teresa's ex-boyfriend and roommate during the first 24 hours.

They didn't ask them for alibis. Tunnel vision is a bitch. Calumet and Manitowoc counties will try their hardest to not let him out because that $36,000,000 will quadruple, and money will also be awarded to Brendan. I can see this being a reason for why the prosecution and judge don't necessarily care if they got it wrong (which is why Kratz brings it up when the DoJ inspects him).

 

[FlyinJ]

No, not really. I'm basing this off the fact that Steven had a bonfire right outside his house once Teresa was "gone". The fact that Brendan said he saw body parts in his first interview (yes, his first). The fact that the fire was so hot that her bones were intertwined with steel from the tires. Teresa's body wasn't quickly burned in some little weenie roast fire and transported. She was burned in a hot as fuck fire (you know, like a bonfire). Guess who had a bonfire right outside his house complete with tires?

Brenden was blatantly coerced into "admitting" he saw body parts in the fire. They made a big point of that in the documentary.

Someone needs to make a wiki with full date and time stamps of every one of of Brenden's interviews so we can easily point to them and avoid these erroneous claims about what was said, when it was said, and in what context.

 

[Kaiterra]

That's why I wouldn't be surprised if investigators looked at Teresa's ex-boyfriend and roommate during the first 24 hours.

They admitted to never considering those two suspects.

 

[ZQQLANDER]

They admitted to never considering those two suspects.

The investigators admitted to the defense that they didn't consider either of them? What episode was this? What was the context? Did the investigators say they interviewed them and found nothing out of the ordinary or did they say they never approached them at all?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

No, not really. I'm basing this off the fact that Steven had a bonfire right outside his house once Teresa was "gone". The fact that Brendan said he saw body parts in his first interview (yes, his first). The fact that the fire was so hot that her bones were intertwined with steel from the tires. Teresa's body wasn't quickly burned in some little weenie roast fire and transported. She was burned in a hot as fuck fire (you know, like a bonfire). Guess who had a bonfire right outside his house complete with tires?

Her Cingular phone records? I don't think they ever determined for sure if messages were deleted. Her ex said he might have deleted 1 or more. Why would he do this? Have you ever left a message on someone's phone that you're worried about? It can be pretty cringey to listen to yourself. He could've deleted his own message, he could've deleted a blank message, he could've deleted no messages.

What could've been the "smoking gun" message that would've been deleted? "Hi Teresa, this is your ex and I'm fucking pissed off. I heard you were going to be working at the Avery's again. See you there!"

Not smoking gun but someone accessing a dead person's belonging's is very suspicious. With the roommate not mentioning Teresa has been missing for 3 days, plus angry stalker calls, and missing messages is a legit road to investigate, and it's bad detective work to not do it. This is why tunnel vision is brought up numerous times in the series: the police did not believe anyone but Steven Avery did it so this ruined how they investigated the murder.

The investigators admitted to the defense that they didn't consider either of them? What episode was this? What was the context? Did the investigators say they interviewed them and found nothing out of the ordinary or did they say they never approached them at all?

The defense asked the ex-boyfriend if the police talked to them. He said yes. The defense asked the ex-boyfriend if they asked for alibis for either you or the roommate, he said no.

 

[G-Bus]

I feel compelled to paint a bit of a picture here and the way I see it. Whether any one here acknowledges it or not, what ever. I;ve had a few beer ( a lot!) and im still thinking about all this crap.

The Avery family. Outcast, unliked and not sociable with the rest of the community. Allegations of incest (maybe explains such low iq in some) and just out right odd behavior from the lot. low intelligence, maybe explains the lack of community involvement and general outcasted behavior. General consensus from the community is disgust.

In comes Steven Avery. Bit of a shit head. Small charges for burglary and gets a bit crazy at his own parties. He fucking tossed a cat in the fire! this guy is fucked up.

1985. I women is dragged from the beach into the woods and the perpetrator is attempting to rape her. She immediately is convinced this person is Steven. She even goes on record to say she thinks it was Steven who committed it. Skecth artist and officers are behind her on this. She's telling the truth. Community is probably rallying behind her. I mean, the incestuous, outcasted odd as fuck family and the main player in rumors, Steven, is involved. Everyone knows about this guy. Cops jump on it.

Turns out this is all bullshit. Cops got way to gung ho. People were out to get him. I think some truly believed all this.

2003. Steven Avery us released. People in the law enforcement can't handle this. They fucking hate this family. The whole district is made to look like incompetent fools.

Two years later a women goes missing. Last place she is definitely known to be seen at is Steven Avery's place. Well fuck, finally got this asshole. They're damn certain this time. Only one problem. We don't know what happened, just the last place she's visited. Fuck it, get the bastard, detain him and we'll get the evidence to convict this fucker. Move him around, don't let anyone see him. We can't let this asshole get away again.

Nothing makes sense. Nothing checks out. A few of the officers that truly despise this guy for making them look like fools aren't taking another chance. Make sure he gets locked away.

I honestly believe the majority of people involved truly believe Steven was guilty, regardless of the inconsistencies and just outright odd handling of the case.

I honestly want to believe he's not guilty but part of me thinks he is. I just really really don't get how he pulled some things off and not others. I also have an even harder time believing a few people of the community were in cahoots and managed to frame him. It all worked out way to coincidentally and some what perfect to be real.

I hope this gets figured out one day regardless of a real verdict. I just want to know what the fuck happened.

 

[Kaiterra]

The investigators admitted to the defense that they didn't consider either of them? What episode was this? What was the context? Did the investigators say they interviewed them and found nothing out of the ordinary or did they say they never approached them at all?

I can't give you that specific level of detail because I watched the doc all in one sitting right after it went up. But it came up.

 

[ZQQLANDER]

The defense asked the ex-boyfriend if the police talked to them. He said yes. The defense asked the ex-boyfriend if they asked for alibis for either you or the roommate, he said no.

Gotcha. Thinking about rewatching tomorrow.

Regarding tunnel vision. I think it's very difficult to juggle multiple suspects at once. You kind of run with your best possible option at the time and put the others on the back burner. When one doesn't pan out, you switch to another. I do agree though, investigators become invested in a particular scenario and suspect for whatever reason and can't let it go.

 

[The Beard]

Isn't murder investigation 101, usually the person who commits the murder is a family member, friend or SO (ex or current)?

Yeah definitely, but you start with the last known person to see the victim alive and move outward from there. If I'm last seen at a customers house, the cops are going to start looking there first. They wouldn't ignore the customer and start looking at my ex gf.

It is. The last person alive isn't always the best if you have no time line. At best you're guessing, which is why the tunnel vision is brought up so much.

Steven was questioned and let go initially, then he gave that local news interview after the questioning. They started with Steven, and questioned Teresa's friends and family. It's not like they took him into custody the day of the missing person report.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Verdict spoilers, not sure if we're covering them:

Spoiler

How do you find him guilty of murder, but not of mutilation? Who cut up the body then?

 

[ZQQLANDER]

Verdict spoilers, not sure if we're covering them:

Spoiler

How do you find him guilty of murder, but not of mutilation? Who cut up the body then?

It gets better in episode 10

Spoiler

Brendan was found guilty of mutilation

 

[RedRum]

You guys take a look at that Innocence Project site? Holy shit at the number of Eyewitness Misidentification and Government Misconduct. The justice system in this country is a fucking joke.

 

[SneakersSO]

Who? Who could've killed Teresa on Avery's property, burned her body 20ft from Avery's front door, and burned her cell phone and purse right outside Avery's window? Who could've put Avery's blood in Teresa's car and his sweat on the hood? Who could've pulled all of this off on Avery's property without 1 witness? Who could've timed this murder so perfectly to where it appears that Steven was the very last person to see her, and do it on the same night he had a bonfire? Who could've gotten to her before she was able to make a call or receive a call after driving away from Avery?

See, here's the thing - many of your questions here come from the position that Avery did it. You're ignoring some facts about this entire case.

- We do not know where Teresa was killed. We don't even have any indication of the location, and there is no evidence that suggests that the location of her death was at the Avery's. Her cell phone, purse, & her ashes in his pit outside his window does not necessarily mean it was originally burned there, as there is no evidence to suggest that it couldn't have been moved there to implicate Avery. We have no shred of her DNA ANYWHERE on the property outside of the bullet found in the garage, which was not only discovered after a thorough investigation seemingly missed it, but after Brendan submitted a new confession which stated the murder location was the garage, not the bedroom.

- You're telling me that after we know that his DNA evidence kit from his 1985 case was factually tampered with, you're telling me there is no possibility that any of it might've been used in the RAV4? Consider this - no other DNA of Avery's was found on the car outside of the blood spots found on several points in the car, and the sweat found on the hood latch. That includes no finger prints. And while Steve Avery did have a cut on his hand, it was neither fresh nor bleeding. So, if theres no prints, that suggests maybe he wore a glove. Yet, if he did wear a glove, how did we get blood & and sweat from hand on two completely different locations of the car? How come theres no bloody glove found anywhere on the property?

- While we're asking questions, lets ask the most obvious one. The testimony ppl like to bring up, which the prosecution used to convict Steve, was Brendan's initial confession, which says Avery opened the hood & disabled the car battery, which corroborates the sweat found on the hood latch. However, Brendan also claims he helped hide the vehicle. So how come Brendan left ZERO physical evidence ANYWHERE near any of the areas of interest at the Avery property? There is simply no evidence that places Brendan there during these events, outside of the words coming out of his mouth.

So, we're left with 'who could've killed her? If not Steve, who?'. Well, theres the ex-bf who not only 'guessed' her voicemail password, but there were voicemails found being deleted off of her phone during that time, and that he has no alibi for that time, and was allegedly supposed to meet with her after she left the Avery residence. And while I won't say the police did it, cause I honestly don't think they did, how about one of the detective's having seemingly found the vehicle DAYS before it was called, calling it in to dispatch? He didn't even have to give an explanation as to what was going on when he called in her exact car two whole days before it was ever found - HE NEVER HAD TO EXPLAIN HIMSELF. Mind you - this same detective was one of the ones who was already deposed in Avery's lawsuit for his wrongful conviction in 1985.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Gotcha. Thinking about rewatching tomorrow.

Regarding tunnel vision. I think it's very difficult to juggle multiple suspects at once. You kind of run with your best possible option at the time and put the others on the back burner. When one doesn't pan out, you switch to another. I do agree though, investigators become invested in a particular scenario and suspect for whatever reason and can't let it go.

You don't, though. That's terrible police work. It's why multiple people work on a case.

Steven was questioned and let go initially, then he gave that local news interview after the questioning. They started with Steven, and questioned Teresa's friends and family. It's not like they took him into custody the day of the missing person report.

They didn't follow up with suspicious behavior with friends and family. The roommate not reporting her missing for 3 days is question worthy but they never ask him. Her receiving harassing calls isn't questioned either. This was a failure to do their job properly. The investigation was done horrendously so even if Steven did murder her he can still be set free (if the system wasn't already set on keeping him there).

This story isn't about how Steven's innocent but how the justice system fails repeatedly and we don't even know it. Steven probably isn't that unique of a case.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I just finished 8 and I'm disappointed that here on out seems like it won't focus on Steven anymore. Am I wrong in this? If not, I might just wikipedia how it all ends. I'm not interested at all in Brendan. Also, I don't think I can handle 2 more episodes of nothing but downhill fucking depression at this show.

Spoiler

Please someone tell me if there is at least some light here...You don't have to tell me what. Just...some light?

 

[iMAGINATION]

Saw this

On December 22, 2015, the Innocence Project issued a statement stating "a member of the Innocence Network is currently looking into some aspects of his case"

on wikipedia. Which leads to this website.

Anyone know if this is legit? Can they actually do anything?

Looks like they are affiliated with Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University

Edit: Thinking about how much this happens makes me sick

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Verdict spoilers, not sure if we're covering them:

Spoiler

How do you find him guilty of murder, but not of mutilation? Who cut up the body then?

I don't understand our judicial system at all, the whole case just doesn't add up to me. Avery feared the the law and going back to jail but he killed a woman on his property cremated and dumped her bones on his property, kept the key to her car in his bedroom and her car in his car lot, has the ability to crush cars but doesn't crush hers?

 

[itxaka]

He's back on their website.

...
The investigators did nothing wrong...? An underaged kid with low intelligence was interrogated and misled without a lawyer or a responsible adult present...? I'm no lawyer but the law professionals who've commented on that bit completely agree that was fucked. To go from admitting to a rape and murder to worrying about missing Wrestlemania should be telling enough that this kid clearly isn't in the right frame of mind.

What broke me wasnt that. It was on the first interview, when they get him to say horrible stuff, then he asks "Would I be at school by 1:30? I have a work to present" or something the style of that.

You can easily see there that the boy was not conscious of wtf he was saying and any consequences of that. He just said whatever the fuck they wanted to hear to avoid the pressure.


Regarding both cases, even if they did commit them, there was no sufficient case against both. Plenty of missing pieces, conflict of interests everywhere, inconclusive evidence, way too many suspicious incidents around it. Should have not been convicted or at least a retrial should have been done.

This story isn't about how Steven's innocent but how the justice system fails repeatedly and we don't even know it. Steven probably isn't that unique of a case.

Just check the innocence project. People jailed longer than Steven for crimes they did not commit. At least some of them are free today.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It's hard for me to believe Steven would murder someone right after his lawsuit was getting off the ground, leave the car on his own property and leave bones right outside his trailer.

Ontop of that almost every peice of evidence is tainted in some way and every person involved with finding evidence was involved with Steves lawsuit and depositions.

Like HOLY shit.

To be fair, Steven is not exactly the bright type. I wouldn't put it past someone like him to act on impulse.

 

[BigTastyBurger666]

Verdict spoilers, not sure if we're covering them:

Spoiler

How do you find him guilty of murder, but not of mutilation? Who cut up the body then?

It's been alleged by Buting that at least one of Jurors on the Avery trial is connected to the Manitowoc Sherriff (the one who was thrown off the case after outwright saying they'd 'murder Steve'), and actively drove the narrative to convict after the 7 Jurors came out saying they thought SA was innocent.

I think it's precisely why the Juror quit and seemed pretty bitter about the way the conversation was being railroaded.

 

[SlickShoes]

To be fair, Steven is not exactly the bright type. I wouldn't put it past someone like him to act on impulse.

I thought that as well but there are still so many holes that make no sense.

Even if he was a bit of a creep that answered the door in a towel, I am sure his general intelligence increased while he had his first stint in jail rather than doing what the rest of the family seem to do.

He's killed her, moved her body to three places(quarry, burn pit and barrel), left all her belongings outside his house in the burn pit. He's "hid" the car, but left her blood in it, and his. He's done all of these things whilst also completely cleaning up a crime scene on a forensic level or hiding it completely? if he has the brain power to conceal the murder itself how come he can't crush the car?

For Steven to have committed this murder as presented by the prosecution makes no logical sense at all. That doesn't mean he is innocent but the version of events they present is ridiculous, for Steven to have done all of the things they suggest he must be suffering from split personality disorder where one of his personalities is a methodical cold blooded killer and his other is a guy with an IQ of 70 or less.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I don't understand our judicial system at all, the whole case just doesn't add up to me. Avery feared the the law and going back to jail but he killed a woman on his property cremated and dumped her bones on his property, kept the key to her car in his bedroom and her car in his car lot, has the ability to crush cars but doesn't crush hers?

Lets not forget that it would have taken several more hours in a more intense fire than was possible in the burn pit or quarry to destroy her body in the way it was. Steven may not be a genius, but he's also not that stupid. Not many people are that careless. I find it unsettling that a majority of the physical evidence was found by Monitowoc Sheriffs, and in almost every situation after several searches by Calumet County resulted in nothing.

 

[Nyx]

Just check the innocence project. People jailed longer than Steven for crimes they did not commit. At least some of them are free today.

I just looked at their website, man.........

So many cases like Steven's where no physical evidence was found but people got convicted for life in prison based on false eye witness accounts or pressured confessions.

Also this :

Despite a lack of physical evidence connecting Arledge to the crimes and alibi testimony from several witnesses, he was convicted of murder and sentenced to 99 years in prison.

Reminds me of the first case of Steven's where 22 witnesses had given him an alibi but he still got convicted for the sexual assault.
I reallly do not understand this, how can so many witnesses not be believed but just 1 person who said otherwise is?

edit: Fuck this shit man, and I thought the blood vial in Steven's case was bizarre, read this:

Further analysis of the blood on House's jeans cast doubt on whether the blood was actually deposited during the course of the crime. This included testimony from a former Tennessee State Medical Examiner, who stated that in his view, the the blood on the jeans showed enzyme decay — which, he testified, was consistent with blood taken at Mrs. Muncey's autopsy and transported in vials without preservative or refrigeration. The decay would not be expected to be found in blood that came in direct contact with House's pants while the victim was alive.

Additional evidence supported the theory that blood collected at Muncey's autopsy had spilled on House's jeans after they were collected as evidence, whether accidentally or deliberately. The blood vials were not sealed, and were driven 10 hours to the FBI lab by two law enforcement officers. The blood spoiled during the trip due to heat exposure, and FBI records showed that a significant amount of blood from the autopsy vials was missing when the officers arrived at the lab.

Talk about bad luck when blood of a murder victim spills on your jeans in a FBI car.
23 years on deathrow before released, damn...

 

[ZQQLANDER]

You don't, though. That's terrible police work. It's why multiple people work on a case.

Focusing on one suspect is poor practice? If you have solid evidence pointing toward a certain suspect's direction it isn't. Ideally, yes you have multiple investigators working different angles, but most of the time local police departments or small county sheriff offices don't have the man power to assign multiple detectives to a single case. Hell some PD's don't even have an analyst.

 

[Gattsu25]

Focusing on one suspect is poor practice? If you have solid evidence pointing toward a certain suspect's direction it isn't. Ideally, yes you have multiple investigators working different angles, but most of the time local police departments or small county sheriff offices don't have the man power to assign multiple detectives to a single case. Hell some PD's don't even have an analyst.

Lack of manpower, to the exclusion of all but one interview, wasn't a problem in this case. Hell, we know that they had the bandwidth to start looking into other suspects days later due to Brendan.

Focusing on one to the exclusion of all others? yeah, seems like poor practice to me.

Focusing on one as the 'primary suspect' (how many times have you heard that phrase from actual detectives being interviewed?), on the other hand?

Just because you think you have your guy doesn't mean that you ignore everyone else. It's exactly why police so often talk about having a 'primary suspect', because even when they are pretty sure they are looking at the murderer they still check their other leads.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Besides the fact that maybe an innocent man or 2 are in prison over this (again reasonable doubt, especially for Brendan) the scariest thing to me is to actually witness what fucking idiots are in positions of power on this country.

Whether you think they are criminals themselves can be argued... but at the very best these guys shown in the documentary are bumbling morons. Scary as fuck that your life could depend on them.

I think Avery's lawyer mentions something like that towards the end. I know I'm not likely to ever kill another human being, but I sure as hell don't know that I could never be accused of it, and after watching this doc, the idea of being accused of something like that is far more terrifying than it ever was previously.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

That DA Kratz was a real POS too, sexting domestic violence abuse victims, flexing his power and imposing his will on them. That creep got 2 people put away for life.

 

[aerts1js]

That DA Kratz was a real POS too, sexting domestic violence abuse victims, flexing his power and imposing his will on them. That creep got 2 people put away for life.

At least two. Every case that he's been involved in should be under review as far as I'm concerned.

 

[EthanC]

Who? Who could've killed Teresa on Avery's property, burned her body 20ft from Avery's front door, and burned her cell phone and purse right outside Avery's window? Who could've put Avery's blood in Teresa's car and his sweat on the hood? Who could've pulled all of this off on Avery's property without 1 witness? Who could've timed this murder so perfectly to where it appears that Steven was the very last person to see her, and do it on the same night he had a bonfire? Who could've gotten to her before she was able to make a call or receive a call after driving away from Avery?

Probably the person that days prior bought leg irons and handcuffs. The very same person that requested Theresa be the one the company send out to photograph the van, who also happens to be the same guy that called her phone numerous times using *67.

 

[backflip10019]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the current Manitowoc Sheriff did an interview with THR that ran last night. Here are some excerpts about info that was left out of the documentary:

Hermann elaborated on some of the omitted evidence, such as leg irons and handcuffs being found in both Avery's and Dassey's homes.

"Apparently, Brendan had helped Avery clean the garage floor with bleach and there was bleach on Brendan's pants," Hermann tells THR.

"The car key, when they talk about that in the [documentary] it makes you believe blood was on the car key for that DNA thing. It was actually sweat, perspiration from Steven Avery," Hermann says.

"In the burning barrel, the cell phone and several other things of Teresa Halbach were found in the barrel, burnt," Hermann says. "A camera, I believe, and a cell phone. So, they left a lot of things out a lot of critical pieces."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...jstrause&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_headlines

Obviously we knew the doc was skewed in favor of Steven and Brendan, but this information makes me think even more that they actually did murder her.

 

[aerts1js]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the current Manitowoc Sheriff did an interview with THR that ran last night. Here are some excerpts about info that was left out of the documentary:









http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...jstrause&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_headlines

Obviously we knew the doc was skewed in favor of Steven and Brendan, but this information makes me think even more that they actually did murder her.

Could sweat be planted by simply using one of his unclean shirts? (not sure)

I don't buy the fact that he cleaned the garage using bleach, judging by the photo of the place.

Leg Irons & Handcuffs are.. weird, but not damning.