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[140.85]

Watched this and read all the criticism of it, including evidence withheld or glossed over in the series.

As someone who has served as a juror on a murder trial, it's clear that the jury failed in their civic duty. Whether they misunderstood their charge, were too dumb, just willfully irresponsible, tainted or all of the above is anybody's guess.

 

[thoseAREmySHOES]

Finally got around to watching this. I watched the first four episodes earlier this week, I was a little turned off by the incredible bias that Steven and Brendan were innocent, but when I marathoned the last 6 episodes today, I was floored and frankly upset. I just can't believe there was ever a way the jury was able to unanimously decide both were guilty. I'm trying to convince myself that there were significant things that were left out of the documentary because the way it is presented, I just can't comprehend how ANY jury would have been able to see the same stuff we did and still convict them.

Some other stuff that made this even more interesting on a personal level:
- I grew up in Neenah, WI (the city where Len, Brendan's original attorney, is from). Neenah is in the same TV broadcast area as all of the local news footage that was shown throughout. It was a bit surreal seeing all of it again accompanied with so much additional detail. I'll admit that I did not follow the case closely as it occurred, but I distinctly remember the sheer amount of coverage it received.
- I've been to Manitowoc and Mishicot several times and I feel it can't be overstated just how crazy big this case was for such a small area, population-wise. It really makes me question how many similar stories there might be in bigger cities that just kind of get swallowed up due to the size/number of cases that are seen in more populated areas.

 

[y2dvd]

Watched this and read all the criticism of it, including evidence withheld or glossed over in the series.

As someone who has served as a juror on a murder trial, it's clear that the jury failed in their civic duty. Whether they misunderstood their charge, were too dumb, just willfully irresponsible, tainted or all of the above is anybody's guess.

It's not all a guess. One of them came out to the creators of MaM and said they were pretty much threaten to vote guilty. There were at least 2 relatives to members of the MCPD and possible a 3rd one, and the guess is what went on with the replacement juror.

 

[140.85]

Oh, and Mike Halbach is a credulous dullard.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

4 episodes in and I had to force myself to stop watching for now. I just can't. I shouldnt have watched this today as I have a very busy day in 4 hours, but I just can't.

Fucking humanity. I just can't. This is bullshit to the 10th degree.

Fuck the police. I can't believe this is all real. I feel so bad for his mother. So bad. I'm completely heartbroken and I just can't.

I shouldnt have watched this today.

 

[finalflame]

4 episodes in and I had to force myself to stop watching for now. I just can't. I shouldnt have watched this today as I have a very busy day in 4 hours, but I just can't.

Fucking humanity. I just can't. This is bullshit to the 10th degree.

Fuck the police. I can't believe this is all real. I feel so bad for his mother. So bad. I'm completely heartbroken and I just can't.

I shouldnt have watched this today.

Episode 4 huh? Can't wait to see your reaction to the rest of his story. Boy oh boy.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

The opening sequence tune rebounds me of the Leftover's. Anyone else? Only on episode 5 so better not hang around here till I'm finished.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

The opening sequence tune rebounds me of the Leftover's. Anyone else? Only on episode 5 so better not hang around here till I'm finished.

I actually got a slight Game of Thrones vibe from it.

 

[Nipo]

I actually got a slight Game of Thrones vibe from it.

It's the cello

 

[kingslunk]

4 episodes in and I had to force myself to stop watching for now. I just can't. I shouldnt have watched this today as I have a very busy day in 4 hours, but I just can't.

Fucking humanity. I just can't. This is bullshit to the 10th degree.

Fuck the police. I can't believe this is all real. I feel so bad for his mother. So bad. I'm completely heartbroken and I just can't.

I shouldnt have watched this today.

You haven't seen anything yet.

 

[Frodo]

The most infuriating thing about this, and I think also, the jurors and judge biggest mistake is that they never looked for anybody else.

Not allowing third person liability to be discussed was the nail in the coffin from the start. Not to mention the incredible dodgy inconsistent evidence that does not marry the facts, most grating of all the absolute lack of blood or DNA samples of someone who supposedly has been shot 11 times (if not also strangled and had her throat cut), by someone who is on a brightest of days described only as "not very smart". The assumption of innocence never happened, no one never cared because they were too busy trying to incriminate him, which makes me super suspicious. Th dispatch call, the key with ONLY his DNA and no one else's, everything at best points to a very inconclusive verdict.

Also, what the hell is going on with Bobby Dassy?

 

[Dahbomb]

Can I can get a Mark Ruffolo's " they can't keep getting away with it" gif from Spotlight?

Because god damn they can't keep getting away with it!

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Something else that bothered me was the bullet they found in the garage. Yes, it had her DNA on it and was matched to his gun (which, if it were a conspiracy, could easily be explained by the fact that the police had access to her blood and there were bullets all over the property from these people being hicks who like to shoot their guns), but how did the bullet get there? Did it fall out of her body? If so, how did it get under all that junk? If it was propelled through her body instead of just falling out, why wasn't it embedded in the concrete in any way? It was just sitting there, waiting to be found.

Just seems odd.

 

[Always-honest]

I actually got a slight Game of Thrones vibe from it.

Yep

 

[RedShift]

Something else that bothered me was the bullet they found in the garage. Yes, it had her DNA on it and was matched to his gun (which, if it were a conspiracy, could easily be explained by the fact that the police had access to her blood and there were bullets all over the property from these people being hicks who like to shoot their guns), but how did the bullet get there? Did it fall out of her body? If so, how did it get under all that junk? If it was propelled through her body instead of just falling out, why wasn't it embedded in the concrete in any way? It was just sitting there, waiting to be found.

Just seems odd.

They must have missed it when they thoroughly scrubbed everything in the garage clean of blood.

It's easy to miss something like a bullet when you're performing a technically impossible clean-up operation.

 

[Chiggs]

Thematically, Avery's story reminds me of the Circleville Letters saga, which is both bizarre and disturbing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Unresolved...o_really_wrote_the_thousands_of_letters_that/

The man accused of the letters submitted a massive .PDF that pointed out all of the errors and biased police work that eventually led to his conviction. The Reddit link above has everything you need to get started.

 

[Fried Food]

finished it last night. EFF those corrupt pieces of garbage. Hopefully the internet age can do its thing and right this wrong

 

[KingBroly]

I stopped roughly halfway through Episode 3

That Kratz guy is a Politician's politician.

The cover-up stuff for the assault was so obvious and insulting by everyone involved as well.

 

[Dalek]

I stopped roughly halfway through Episode 3

That Kratz guy is a Politician's politician.

The cover-up stuff for the assault was so obvious and insulting by everyone involved as well.

That's the thing that bothers me most. It's so obvious it's a frame job and they spent the least possible amount of effort doing so, because they knew their cohorts would just "buy into it" to perpetuate the lie.

 

[Chiggs]

Edit: wrong thread.

 

[Frodo]

Does anyone think that in the current environment, where we have people protesting against police violence, misconduct and impunity, the outcome of this could have been different?

 

[KarmaCow]

Does anyone think that in the current environment, where we have people protesting against police violence, misconduct and impunity, the outcome of this could have been different?

It's a tiny poor white community in Wisconsin, I doubt the current climate would have changed much.

 

[FlyingIrishMan]

The opening sequence tune rebounds me of the Leftover's. Anyone else? Only on episode 5 so better not hang around here till I'm finished.

The score composer is the same composer of The Last of Us. Can definitely pick up lots of guitar elements that sound similar to that.

 

[fantomena]

Just started watching it.

This is Game of Thrones IRL.

How the hell are americans, mostly republicans, not wanting to do anything with the system? Not even Hillary is really talking about it, mostly only Bernie.

 

[Frodo]

Also, isn't Halbach's family best interest to find the person who did this? I mean, not just to put the blame in someone, but actually find the real person who did this, and not let someone potentially walk free. So why is every evidence so easily dismissed and why are they so eager to put the blame in the Avery family even though there are questions surrounding it? It was not enough just to lay blame on Steve, but they were adamant Brendan would be made guilty too, even though his case as flimsy as a piece of paper and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he was in the "crime scene(s)".

I understand that during grief it is not easy to rationalise and we often try to find someone to take the blame, but the trial took a lot of time, someone must have thought that the defence had compelling arguments somewhere along the way, right?

It is too one sided.

 

[arts&crafts]

I already finished it but my roommate is currently watching and he just finished the Steven avery verdict and is on the brendan dancy one and he contradicts himself so much.

Steven Avery Trial

Kratz "The reason no evidence of blood or anything in the bedroom is because she was not killed in the bedroom she was killed in the garage"

Brendan Dancy Trail
Kratz "You killed her in the bedroom just as you described"


Also if he was killed in the garage, how come there was no blood anywhere? They even drilled up the entire floor.

 

[NYR]

This is Game of Thrones IRL.

What? No it isn't.

 

[fantomena]

What? No it isn't.

Probably not, just got very angry when I wrote it.

 

[RedShift]

What? No it isn't.

Didn't you see the bit where Stephen demanded a trail by combat?

 

[KingBroly]

Okay, fuck that Manatowoc Sherrif for saying '

Spoiler

oh, if we never released him, she'd still be alive' implying he was guilty of the assault. Holy shit.

 

[BranVan3000]

My problem is that neither got a presumption of Innoncence. The whole trial was fighting a losing battle and it seems like the judge really failed in informing the jury that a guilty verdict needs to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt

And I had to laugh when the prosecution acted so insulted by pointing fingers at the Police who had a history of tampering with evidence and convicting this guy wrongfully. Not to mention flat out ignoring evidence that he didn't do it. But in a again they went after one guy without a thought

 

[KingBroly]

My problem is that neither got a presumption of Innoncence. The whole trial was fighting a losing battle and it seems like the judge really failed in informing the jury that a guilty verdict needs to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt

And I had to laugh when the prosecution acted so insulted by pointing fingers at the Police who had a history of tampering with evidence and convicting this guy wrongfully. Not to mention flat out ignoring evidence that he didn't do it. But in a again they went after one guy without a thought

I think that's the point the documentary was trying to make. That the system found their guy and were going to do what it took to show the rest of the world their truth, reality or not.

EDIT: This interrogation of Brendan has pissed me off so much.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Was it ever asked if the people around Avery's house heard 11 gunshots at any point?

 

[TheCool69]

did the documentary ever say what happened between Steve and his girlfriend? She is with him on the second to last episode and then we get the text saying that she relapsed. Next episode Steve is with the groupie woman?

 

[oti]

So what is that terrible attorney up to these days? Shouldn't his career be very much over after the documentary showed him working for the enemy?

 

[maniac-kun]

How can they give a life sentence to a guy that was 16 at the time of the crime? Is there no youthlaws until he is 18 or 21? Normal counties have that.

 

[CreepingFear]

did the documentary ever say what happened between Steve and his girlfriend? She is with him on the second to last episode and then we get the text saying that she relapsed. Next episode Steve is with the groupie woman?

I believe that the police were going after his girlfriend because of her relationship and support of Steve. She broke up with Steve to get the police off her ass.

 

[gamz]

I believe that the police were going after his girlfriend because of her relationship and support of Steve. She broke up with Steve to get the police off her ass.

Yep, this.

 

[KingBroly]

I'm not sure what to think of Brendan's attorney. He seems like a shithead, but...yeah, I dunno. I'm pretty confused right now.

 

[CreepingFear]

I'm not sure what to think of Brendan's attorney. He seems like a shithead, but...yeah, I dunno. I'm pretty confused right now.

How can you not be sure what to think after what happened with that private investigator the attorney hired? That disgusted me to no end. What a piece of shit lawyer. I would not believe that character if depicted in a movie or tv show.

 

[KingBroly]

How can you not be sure what to think after what happened with that private investigator the attorney hired? That disgusted me to no end. What a piece of shit lawyer. I would not believe that character if depicted in a movie or tv show.

I'm not done with the episode yet.

 

[CreepingFear]

I'm not done with the episode yet.

What you doing in here then? Run. Spoilers galore.

 

[BranVan3000]

Only thing I can't really reconcile is that the framing was almost too good. And finding burnt up remains on a night that Avery just happens to have a bon fire goes well beyond coincidence

I think it is likely Avery did do it but the Police had nothing concrete and "made" the evidence. I expect Avery killed her somewhere not in the garage or house and moved the car off site.

The Police found the car and key in it somewhere, decided to move it back on to his property and cleaned it of any of their DNA. Then planted his blood in it. Same with the key

Then targeted the weakest members of the family to help them (the children).

The biggest evidence though is the bones in his fire pit which I think was entirely his own doing. And is corroborated by him apparently telling a cell mate in his first stint that he could get away with murder by burning everything

 

[maniac-kun]

So how did the bones end up in Stevens firepit? And who actualy murdered that women? Was it the police that was scared of the law suit?

 

[Frodo]

Only thing I can't really reconcile is that the framing was almost too good. And finding burnt up remains on a night that Avery just happens to have a bon fire goes well beyond coincidence

I think it is likely Avery did do it but the Police had nothing concrete and "made" the evidence. I expect Avery killed her somewhere not in the garage or house and moved the car off site.

The Police found the car and key in it somewhere, decided to move it back on to his property and cleaned it of any of their DNA. Then planted his blood in it. Same with the key

Then targeted the weakest members of the family to help them (the children).

The biggest evidence though is the bones in his fire pit which I think was entirely his own doing. And is corroborated by him apparently telling a cell mate in his first stint that he could get away with murder by burning everything

Still doesn't explain why there were bone remains in 3 different places, why couldn't have he used the compressor to get rid of the car (the car covered by a few branches was hilariously bad, I can't honestly believe someone would do that trying to hide a car, it looks like someone was trying to fake it was meant to be hidden), or why he would burn her in a pit just outside his bedroom when he had more efficient ways to burn the body in the savage. Or even why they used the RAV4 to transport her from one place to the other.

Mind me, he could still be guilty, it is just that things don't add up quite well. And none of the evidence used to convict him is really conclusive.

So how did the bones end up in Stevens firepit? And who actualy murdered that women? Was it the police that was scared of the law suit?

Those are all unanswered questions, really.
According to the law it was Steven who murdered her, but can you trust the Manitowoc county for that decision when they've showed their inability before?

I guess the message of the documentary is more than just a plain simple "Is Avery innocent?", but rather can you trust the judicial system? Can you trust a system that failed that person before to judge them again and be right this time? Do you think the judicial system interest is justice above anything else? Super scary thought.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

So how did the bones end up in Stevens firepit? And who actualy murdered that women? Was it the police that was scared of the law suit?

Jealous ex knew she was going to crazy Steve Avery's place. Killed her. Burned the remains. Afraid the remains would be found and point to him instead of Steve so moved them to Avery's property when his "search party" was allowed free access.

Spoiler

Probably Steven though.

 

[Dan]

So what is that terrible attorney up to these days? Shouldn't his career be very much over after the documentary showed him working for the enemy?

Still a defense attorney. His has just very recently been removed from his firm's name, and I believe they scrubbed his bio, but his career appears to have continued on without a hitch.

Also, he's a municipal judge for the town of Menasha.

Yeah... the world is depressing.

 

[UFO]

The biggest evidence though is the bones in his fire pit which I think was entirely his own doing. And is corroborated by him apparently telling a cell mate in his first stint that he could get away with murder by burning everything

Things to consider about the bones:

1. How often did Steven burn things in his pit? Was it often? Was is usually the same day of the week? The police as well as Scott would have known about the fire pit, so it would have seemed like a good way to place blame on him, as well as destroy evidence that pointed elsewhere.

2. Why were there bones found elsewhere? In the quarry and in the barrel behind Scotts house? If the original burn spot was in the fire pit how do you explain bones elsewhere?

3. The thing about a cellmate telling him to burn the body to get rid of DNA is from Kratz's email, would you believe anything Kratz has to say?

 

[Rin Tohsaka]

Try not to cry

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

3. The thing about a cellmate telling him to burn the body to get rid of DNA is from Kratz's email, would you believe anything Kratz has to say?

That, plus I don't consider the hearsay from a convicted felon currently serving time in a maximum security prison as the strongest evidence without some corraborating evidence to go with it.