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[lorebringer]

This is about the movement of arms by the nation itself into another country and have their weapons that they placed in another country to actively shoot down a passenger plane.
THEN! Have said weapon return back to the country where it came from to hide from inspection in the other country.

I don't think that we actually have any evidence this is what happened though. Yes this is a likely scenario, but it's not clear cut. Unless there is actual evidence that has come to light and not just claims and counterclaims from parties with their own agendas in play?

There were reports earlier that Russians were trying to plant parts of an air-to-air missile and/or a SU-25 at the crash site.

Link?

 

[MJLord]

I don't think that we actually have any evidence this is what happened though. Yes this is a likely scenario, but it's not clear cut. Unless there is actual evidence that has come to light and not just claims and counterclaims from parties with their own agendas in play?

That's basically been this whole disaster wrapped up. He did this, they did that.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

yup, I have seen them on the sidewalk with their tables and posters of Obama with Hitler moustaches.

Sounds like LaRouche cultists.

 

[joedan]

false equivlancy.

this is not about the sales of arms and repsonsiblity of what another country does with them.

This is about the movement of arms by the nation itself into another country and have their weapons that they placed in another country to actively shoot down a passenger plane.
THEN! Have said weapon return back to the country where it came from to hide from inspection in the other country.

I wonder if all members of the security council (US, China, UK, France, Russia) would ever accept to being subject to sanctions/prosecutions if the arms they sell to other countries were used accidental or intentionally in war crimes and then the seller of the arms tries to avoid culpability in selling the arms.

 

[Yankee Ruin X]

There were reports earlier that Russians were trying to plant parts of an air-to-air missile and/or a SU-25 at the crash

Is this true?? Wow if they are trying to plant parts from an air to air missile at the site. How would they even try to spin that without incriminating themselves further?

 

[Daemul]

That's basically been this whole disaster wrapped up. He did this, they did that.

This is why I haven't yet given my opinion on the matter. I'm going to wait a couple of months first to get the full story before saying anything. There's way too much BS being spread around at this time, I have no idea what's true and what's not.

 

[Maninthemirror]

There were reports earlier that Russians were trying to plant parts of an air-to-air missile and/or a SU-25 at the crash site.



Whataboutism. Classic Soviet propaganda tactic.

link?

 

[gutter_trash]

Sounds like LaRouche cultists.

the guy was not talkable, he was insanely convinced of what he was saying.

I brought up Gazprom and brought up Chinese buying the majority shares of Embridge, but nothing. These guys are insane

 

[Totakeke]

This is why I haven't yet given my opinion on the matter. I'm going to wait a couple of months first to get the full story before saying anything. There's way too much BS being spread around at this time, I have no idea what's true and what's not.

That's just falling to the BS. Just because there's different sides presented doesn't mean they're all equally likely.

 

[Chariot]

An dutch expertteam looked at the corpses in the train. The smell of decay was so strong that people around the trainwagons started to tumble. It must've been disgusting.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...ersuchen-tote-in-zug-in-ukraine-a-982149.html

 

[PopeReal]

Good to wake up and see that this thread has gone to shit.

So many people allowed to just throw random garbage out there. I am going back to the thread where you need sources and must stay on topic.

 

[Daemul]

An dutch expertteam looked at the corpses in the train. The smell of decay was so strong that people around the trainwagons started to tumble. It must've been disgusting.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...ersuchen-tote-in-zug-in-ukraine-a-982149.html

As someone who worked as an undertaker for a period of time, I know what they're going through.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Ukrainian President asking for military help by US and Israel and a couple of other nations on CNN if sanctions don't work

 

[Zukuu]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/malaysia-airlines-mh17-ermittler-untersuchen-tote-in-zug-in-ukraine-a-982149.html[/url]

According to the separatists there are 282 bodies in the train. Not all have been recovered so far it seems.

 

[CheDominik]

Ukrainian President asking for military help by US and Israel and a couple of other nations on CNN if sanctions don't work

There are no real sanctions.
The problem is that the most impiortant trading partner (EU) is dancing aroud the issue and keeps expanding their "deadline" time after time.

 

[Tugatrix]

According to the separatists there are 282 bodies in the train. Not all have been recovered so far it seems.

Some my have been vaporized in the explosion or burned to the bone and those rebels doesn't know how to find them, tag them and collect them.

 

[MaxwellGames]

Everyone's just flat out SCARED to do anything with serious repercussions to Russia out of fear they shut off the energy supply to the rest of Europe.

Let's face facts here.. Putin has that region by the figurative balls and he knows it.



So he'll continue his little invasion into the Ukraine under the guise of "rebels" doing it.

 

[fastford58]

This is such a circus on so many levels. No one gives a shit about those dead people...no one that can do anything anyways.

 

[DigitalDevil]

An dutch expertteam looked at the corpses in the train. The smell of decay was so strong that people around the trainwagons started to tumble. It must've been disgusting.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...ersuchen-tote-in-zug-in-ukraine-a-982149.html

Wow this is so disrespectful.... I hope these bodies get into the hands of someone who gives a shit soon.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I don't owe you an explanation on my posting habits but since you're making such a big deal about this I wasn't posting at all on GAF for a long time for various reasons. I'm not posting in here because I want to talk about drones I'm posting about drones in here because it illustrates my point, which is that people are completely arbitrary about which losses of civilian life they choose to care about.

It's very simple human psychology.

This is a thing that could have happened to any of us. It could've been any plane that got shot down. It could've been anyone in the plane that got shot down.
Second, there were victims of multiple countries from which we have members here. Some of the members here have even said they lost their friends or acquaintances.

Both of these factors make it simply infinitely more tangible for us. It's just how human mind works, but it doesn't mean that anyone actually thinks the drone strikes are any less bad.

And finally, your posts are off topic. If you want to talk about how people arbitrarily choose about which losses of civilian life they choose to care about, you can make a thread to discuss that. By definition, it's not the topic of this thread.

Sorry to bring this up for this one more post.

 

[kess]

Malaysia Airlines flies over Syrian airspace - Flightradar24

 

[gutter_trash]

I wonder if all members of the security council (US, China, UK, France, Russia) would ever accept to being subject to sanctions/prosecutions if the arms they sell to other countries were used accidental or intentionally in war crimes and then the seller of the arms tries to avoid culpability in selling the arms.

again, arms were not SOLD.

arms were moved by Russia itself into Ukraine territory lead by Russian born leaders followed by separatists inside Ukraine.

Then arms moved back into Russia to hide evidence.

It is not SOLD. It is used by Russia and Russian backed separatists

 

[gutter_trash]

double post

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

I wonder if all members of the security council (US, China, UK, France, Russia) would ever accept to being subject to sanctions/prosecutions if the arms they sell to other countries were used accidental or intentionally in war crimes and then the seller of the arms tries to avoid culpability in selling the arms.

Yo, seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? These are militiamen from Russia, sent by Russia, trained by Russia, and funded by Russia. They are not another country. The weapons were not sold to them.

 

[bonesmccoy]

3. Did Ukraine have its own BUK systems and are they all accounted for?

Yes and who knows. There was a media pic of a Ukrainian Buk system in that region from when the latest operation against the separatists started.

I saw this story on Twitter over the weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

Bizarre that this would be the 2nd time that a SAM system has brought down a civilian airliner in that region.

 

[Stinkles]

Occam's razor not a real thing to GAF's pro-Russian posters, huh?

 

[Herbspiceguy]

Is no one concerned that both black boxes are in possession of pro-russian separatists, who seem to be fine keeping them for the while being?
Can't they temper with black boxes?

 

[lorebringer]

Yo, seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? These are militiamen from Russia, sent by Russia, trained by Russia, and funded by Russia. They are not another country. The weapons were not sold to them.

This is most likely not true at all. There are reports of unmarked Russian soldiers that are helping the separatists yes, and only somebody very naive would believe that Russia is not involved in arming and/or training them, which is pretty much par for the course for this kind of scenario, no matter who's involved. The separatists are largely former citizens of Ukraine who are from the region they are fighting in. There are plenty of reports that back this up.

Occam's razor not a real thing to GAF's pro-Russian posters, huh?

Who are you talking to?

 

[Earendil]

Is no one concerned that both black boxes are in possession of pro-russian separatists, who seem to be fine keeping them for the while being?
Can't they temper with black boxes?

Yes they can tamper with it, but they have to know what they are doing. However, I'm not entirely sure what the boxes could tell them that we don't already know, unless the pilots saw the missile coming, which is unlikely.

I don't know if radar data is stored in the FDR or not, but if so, it might be falsified to add a radar signature for a Ukrainian fighter jet in the area, validating the Kremlin's claim that it was shot down by an Air-to-Air missile.


EDIT: Apparently commercial aircrafts' radar systems are not sophisticated enough to track other aircraft and are only used for weather. So I fail to see what they could do to the FDRs to implicate anyone.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Yes and who knows. There was a media pic of a Ukrainian Buk system in that region from when the latest operation against the separatists started.

I saw this story on Twitter over the weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

Bizarre that this would be the 2nd time that a SAM system has brought down a civilian airliner in that region.

You seem to be confused. The pictures of the system in that region were pictures posted by these rebels bragging about how they seized it.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Is no one concerned that both black boxes are in possession of pro-russian separatists, who seem to be fine keeping them for the while being?
Can't they temper with black boxes?

There is concern but the unwillingness to surrender these devices speaks volumes.

I've heard the following from multiple sources:

[...]A number of media reports have indicated that the lack of black box data will create problems for investigators trying to determine what brought down Flight 17. I disagree. It’s my opinion that the black boxes will be of limited utility even if they are handed over to investigators intact. This is because the sudden explosion of the aircraft from a missile is likely to have instantly shut down the aircraft’s electrical systems. The result of the sudden shut down would be that both black boxes – the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder – would most likely immediately stop recording. The cockpit voice recorder is likely to contain the early sound signature of the missile and the explosion. The flight data recorder is likely to show a routine flight up until the missile exploding. The flight data recorder will only record what is going on with the aircraft systems, such as engine performance, altitude, speed and so on. It’s not likely to provide much data on what’s going on outside the aircraft.

So while the black boxes could be used to pinpoint the time and location of when the missile hit, they’re unlikely to provide additional data after that point. The best hope for determining the type of missile that was used in all probability rests inside the debris field that contains the aircraft wreckage.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...estigation-how-important-are-the-black-boxes/

They are an important piece of evidence, whether they are available or not.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Yes they can tamper with it, but they have to know what they are doing. However, I'm not entirely sure what the boxes could tell them that we don't already know, unless the pilots saw the missile coming, which is unlikely.

I don't know if radar data is stored in the FDR or not, but if so, it might be falsified to add a radar signature for a Ukrainian fighter jet in the area, validating the Kremlin's claim that it was shot down by an Air-to-Air missile.


EDIT: Apparently commercial aircrafts' radar systems are not sophisticated enough to track other aircraft and are only used for weather. So I fail to see what they could do to the FDRs to implicate anyone.

They could do things in the name of info graffiti.

I don't want to give anyone any ideas.

 

[sangreal]

Apparently they're handing over the boxes to Malaysia tonight: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/malaysia-says-it-will-receive-mh17-black-boxes-n161241

The voice recorder could help disprove Russia's latest claim of the flight being shadowed by Ukrainian jets

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

This is most likely not true at all. There are reports of unmarked Russian soldiers that are helping the separatists yes, and only somebody very naive would believe that Russia is not involved in arming and/or training them, which is pretty much par for the course for this kind of scenario, no matter who's involved. The separatists are largely former citizens of Ukraine who are from the region they are fighting in. There are plenty of reports that back this up.



Who are you talking to?

I'm talking to the guy who keeps comparing countries to the militiamen, saying that if Russia is going to be held accountable for what the militiamen do, then the U.S., for example, should be held accountable if it sells military weapons to a country and that country uses it on it civilians or something.

Even Ukranians who are part of the separatist movement are being trained and supported by the Russian Federation. Russia is not selling anything to them; they don't have any money.

 

[Stinkles]

This is most likely not true at all. There are reports of unmarked Russian soldiers that are helping the separatists yes, and only somebody very naive would believe that Russia is not involved in arming and/or training them, which is pretty much par for the course for this kind of scenario, no matter who's involved. The separatists are largely former citizens of Ukraine who are from the region they are fighting in. There are plenty of reports that back this up.



Who are you talking to?

You, apparently.

 

[Earendil]

They could do things in the name of info graffiti.

I don't want to give anyone any ideas.

I'm not even going to ask...

 

[foxuzamaki]

What are the Russians thinking of Putin and their govt right now? The general conensus

 

[sangreal]

What are the Russians thinking of Putin and their govt right now? The general conensus

I believe his approval ratings have never been higher

Just look at http://www.reddit.com/r/russia here is a post on that question specifically: http://www.reddit.com/r/russia/comments/2b7gas/what_is_your_personal_opinion_on_vladimir_putin/

 

[RM8]

What are the Russians thinking of Putin and their govt right now? The general conensus

There was a recent report about Putin having a high approval rate. Since the media is controlled by the government, he's basically Russia's Kim Jong-un.

 

[teruterubozu]

There was a recent report about Putin having a high approval rate. Since the media is controlled by the government, he's basically Russia's Kim Jong-un.

Yup, 83% approval rating. Highest ever, apparently.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Can't wait til Putin has a 106% approval rating according to Russian Media™

 

[Chariot]

What are the Russians thinking of Putin and their govt right now? The general conensus

Given that a lot of people hate Gorbatschow for giving up the Sowjet Union, I think a lot of nationalism is on the stake and people are glad that Putin want to make russia bigger and feared again.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Can't wait til Putin has a 106% approval rating according to Russian Media™

Easily explained by Russian speakers living in other countries.

 

[raindoc]

There was a recent report about Putin having a high approval rate. Since the media is controlled by the government, he's basically Russia's Kim Jong-un.

reminds me of...

Spoiler

The Ballot card used by the Nazis to let Austria "vote" about whether to join the 3rd Reich or not. In case you were wonderin: "Ja" means yes.

 

[Chariot]

Update on the corps train: the seperatist let it roll out of their territory and into Charkiw (controlled by ukrainian government), so international experts can take a look at the dead.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...-leichen-setzt-sich-in-bewegung-a-982198.html

 

[Dominican Power]

Ukrainian president going to far with this "global great" thing.

 

[Roo]

Update on the corps train: the seperatist let it roll out of their territory and into Charkiw (controlled by ukrainian government), so international experts can take a look at the dead.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...-leichen-setzt-sich-in-bewegung-a-982198.html

Wait, so they're still going back and forth with the bodies? My God..

 

[explodet]

I can't believe that this entire incident has gotten so bad that "corpse train" is an actual phrase being used.

 

[Chariot]

Wait, so they're still going back and forth with the bodies? My God..

Well, not really. The seperatists just put the 280 bodies into a train and let it stay there a while and are now willing to give the corpses up. That is something the dutch and the ukrainian government actually wanted, because it would be difficult to let neutral watchers look at the bodys in seperatists area, for a lot of reasons, So they bring them to a safer place.

I can't believe that this entire incident has gotten so bad that "corpse train" is an actual phrase being used.

Sorry, I maybe should just said train. But it is a train filled with literally hundreds of corpses.

 

[Roo]

Well, not really. The seperatists just put the 280 bodies into a train and let it stay there a while and are now willing to give the corpses up. That is something the dutch and the ukrainian government actually wanted, because it would be difficult to let neutral watchers look at the bodys in seperatists area, for a lot of reasons, So they bring them to a safer place.

Oh I see, thanks for clearing that up.