That is the excuse that consistently get used by every government. If this is murder or terrorism then all collateral damage is murder or terrorism.
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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors
- Thread starter alfredofroylan
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That is the excuse that consistently get used by every government. If this is murder or terrorism then all collateral damage is murder or terrorism.
Killing someone with the intention of killing them is always murder, yes.
Killing another soldier in a war, that is actively trying to do the same to you, is very much understandable and can even be considered justified. It probably even has a purpose that's considered noble. But that's obviously not the case here. They intentionally shot down a plane from a height of 10km's, they knew the people aboard the plane would die, regardless of which plane it was. Plane wasn't a threat to them. It was just flying over. It's murder.
lorebringer
Member
Since we're on the the is it murder part of this circus, if we're all going to use these terms let's not have double standards right?
US Drone strike deaths
For the lazy, in Pakistan alone:
Even if we take the definition of "civilian" as according to the administration (which is BS btw), that's still potentially 4 or 5 plane loads of civilians over 10 years. Murder or terrorism?
US Drone strike deaths
For the lazy, in Pakistan alone:
Even if we take the definition of "civilian" as according to the administration (which is BS btw), that's still potentially 4 or 5 plane loads of civilians over 10 years. Murder or terrorism?
Thanks for bringing that up, because before your insightful post everyone loved drone strikes.
What's your point to the topic at hand? What's the relevance for this thread?
lorebringer
Member
Did I say everyone loved drone strikes? No I didn't but good job on the sarcasm, great reply. I'm pointing out the farce of murder/terrorism on one side, justified action on the other. It's all just as bad but this thread is at thousands of posts and the last drone thread got a couple pages max so maybe there's some cognitive dissonance going on we should be aware of.
Like I said, it's an interesting insight into the choice of words and rhetoric that are used.
What does that have to do with anything? Do you think all the people approve of drone strikes? Or can you only criticize Russian proxies here if you're a GAFfer from a country that doesn't currently have a drone campaign? What is the point?
Gemüsepizza;121795123 said:
Germany doesn't want to act since it's already been bought and paid for by Putin. Merkel won't do jack shit since you have no energy independence. So the EU will do fuck all.
The reaction from the international community has fuck all to do with 'facts' since everyone fucking knows what happened.
Now if say a few dozen American's had died on that plane, that area would be droned the fuck up, CIA on the ground, no shits given.
We all know the victims will get no justice and the perpetrators will get away with it. So let's not bullshit about 'knowing how the law works'.
Partial Gamification
Banned
Unconfirmed but there are reports the site was under surveillance and there were bottles seen littering the ground. The crew of the missile system was drunk, shot down the commercial flight, and were sent into scramble to cover-up mode.
The launcher is said to have been seen being moved back into Russia. If only a few people were involved, the crew and half a dozen officers as the info was passed to the Kremlin, then it would limit the possibility to leak the info.. Keep in mind the story from Russia eludes to Ukraine's role in this; and for those fighting, who is to say Ukraine didn't stage the whole thing to escalate pressure on the separatists?
Breaking ranks, or hinting you might, would be a death sentence if involvement wasn't what caused the current 'disappearance' of the crew manning that anti-aircraft system.
Used by whom? Does this change what happened with the Malaysian plane? Does this change the way those people died? Does the fact that Americans are bombing innocent people change the guilt of those that brought this plane down?
Not that I particularly like this tangent, but I was wondering what the combatant/civilian ratio is like for drones versus other means of warfare and I found this (from ProCon.org):
There's a lot to be said against drones, of course. That site does a good job of explaining those as well.
Drones kill fewer civilians, as a percentage of total fatalities, than any other military weapon.
The traditional weapons of war - bombs, shells, mines, mortars - cause more unintended ("collateral") damage to people and property than drones, whose accuracy and technical precision mostly limit casualties to combatants and intended targets. Although estimates vary because of the secretive nature of the program, it is estimated that 174 to 1,047 civilians have been killed in Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia since the United States began conducting drone strikes abroad following the Sep. 11, 2001 attacks, roughly 8-17% of all deaths from US drones. In comparison, in World War II, civilian deaths, as a percentage of total war fatalities, are estimated at 40 to 67%. In the Korean, Vietnam, and Balkan Wars, the percentages are approximately 70%, 31%, and 45% respectively.
The traditional weapons of war - bombs, shells, mines, mortars - cause more unintended ("collateral") damage to people and property than drones, whose accuracy and technical precision mostly limit casualties to combatants and intended targets. Although estimates vary because of the secretive nature of the program, it is estimated that 174 to 1,047 civilians have been killed in Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia since the United States began conducting drone strikes abroad following the Sep. 11, 2001 attacks, roughly 8-17% of all deaths from US drones. In comparison, in World War II, civilian deaths, as a percentage of total war fatalities, are estimated at 40 to 67%. In the Korean, Vietnam, and Balkan Wars, the percentages are approximately 70%, 31%, and 45% respectively.
There's a lot to be said against drones, of course. That site does a good job of explaining those as well.
lorebringer
Member
Did I say any of that? Am I defending anyone here? All I'm doing is pointing out an interesting dichotomy in the reaction to these events. Incident A, 300 civilians killed, international outrage, incident B, 300+ civilians killed, nobody gives a shit. This was in response to some comments about murder/collateral damage and some other posters pointing out how interesting it was that the choice of terminology reflects the bias of the speaker.
lorebringer
Member
Interesting, I would guess that drones also provide easier to find statistics because it's a simpler task to count the dead when there isn't other military action going on at the same time. You have to remember as well that the definition of "combatant" used in modern terms is overly broad, so it reduces the apparent count of civilian deaths.
Did you make a thread about it?
'Combatant' is a word we've been using to describe terrorists since they don't fall under the typical 'soldier' definition, which would require the support of a state. It is also used as a weasel word, but that's mostly when dealing with our treatment of POWs.
lorebringer
Member
No, but others have. Here are the first 3 google results for "neogaf drone strikes"
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=504057
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=767309
http://67.227.255.239/forum/showthread.php?t=766523
Longest topic is 246 posts. Maybe if the plane was full of brown people this one would be too.
I'm referring to the definition of combatants as:
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=3&_r=0
I'm guessing that's what the higher 1047 estimate is about vs the 174 one.
ANYWAY, I don't think we should take up more space in this thread about it.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Yeah because every person on the plane was white. Get out of here with this shit, you're crapping up the topic. Off topic by quite a bit I'd say.
Nicktendo86
Member
Whaaaaa? Sabre rattling to sure up home support? I have no idea what his long term plan in all this is.
I don't see any post from you in that one. One would think that if you are so much concerned about the topic that you opened the discussion in a totally unrelated thread, you would have already expressed your concern there before complaining about others not caring.
Also about the "brown people" comment. I have no idea what is the color or ethnicity of all the people that have died in the plane, but I'm definitely sure that are not only white people. And I'm outraged about all the deaths.
lorebringer
Member
It's not off topic at all. This thread is full of jingoistic bullshit about how the rest of the world should just invade Russia. I think it's completely relevant to point out that the reaction that people have to similar events is completely different, because it has all kinds of implications for the supposed legitimacy of any entity to have a say in this situation. For example, I don't believe the US has a single shred of moral superiority to stand on here and has no authority at all to be involved in an investigation.
I guess it's easier to attack me then address the actual issue.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
People were extremely outraged over this before we even got a solid confirmation as to which passengers came from where, wtf.
I will answer you on the actual issue when you will care enough to make a post in a thread talking about it. Or make your own thread. Until then I'm calling you out as a hypocrite.
Joel Was Right
Member
I haven't been following this in too much detail but I haven't come across any discussion exploring the possibility that the missile was fired by Ukrainian forces...why?
Chuckie
Member
Considering there were 12 Indonesians on the plane and a lot of the Dutch people who died where people with Indonesian ancestors visiting family I doubt it was a plane full of white people.
Get the fuck out.
I refuse to be made out a racist because I care that my countrymen were killed. Without reason. Without anyone growing a pair and say 'we made a big mistake'.
This topic is not about drones. If you want some ethical discussion about drones, go make another topic. But don't show your ass in here with your off topic bullshit. This thread is about the killing of 298 innocent people.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
If you're complaining about people in this thread not giving a shit about drone strikes, I think its a pretty huge deal that there are no posts from you in any of the topics you're using as an example and that you've chosen to attack the people in this thread than follow the suggestion of of making a thread, which you should do if you feel you're truly concerned about the way people are ignoring them.
There are no enemy planes to shot at. The separatists don't have planes. Also the plane was flying from West to East, so from behind the Ukrainians line, so no reason to be considered even suspect, especially when it was under the guidance of the Ukrainian flight control. There was no anti-aircraft fire from Ukrainian troops during all these fights, as opposed to several Ukrainian military planes already shot down by the separatists. There is practically no realistic scenario for this hypothesis.
Veritigo_X
Member
The pro-Russian separatists don't have any aircraft... why would Ukrainian forces shoot anything down? You'd have to come up with some tin foil hat type theory to come up with an explanation.
Edit: KingSnake said it better ^
Well, think about it for a minute;
- the plane got shot down over terrorist-controlled part of Ukrain.
- the plane was coming from the west, flying to the east
- the terrorists have no aircrafts whatsoever
And now you know.
gutter_trash
Banned
if flying passenger jets over Russian airspace is considered a violation of Russian sovereignty, then FIFA should should remove Russia's World Cup 2018 Hosting duties. Eh nobody can fly right? so fuck Putin, hit him in his pride.
Tomorrow all the Dutch newspapers will have this "ad" in it. All the names,...
http://static1.ad.nl/static/asset/2014/Rouwadvertentie_266x398_5703.pdf
http://static1.ad.nl/static/asset/2014/Rouwadvertentie_266x398_5703.pdf
Partial Gamification
Banned
There are natural disasters and man-made ones too.
It makes it even sadder seeing so many names together with the same surname...whole families murdered.
God f***ing dammit people, this is no sales thread where we compare numbers to gauge historical performances!
Some people should be forced to rewatch the first gruesome live pictures to hammer the point home, that this were real human beings, who in an instant got snuffed out like a candle. For nothing. Dreams, families, lives shattered. Every single one an unspeakable tragedy!
Any kind of relativism shows a disregard of individual human life, and thus drags you down on a level with these killers.
Some people should be forced to rewatch the first gruesome live pictures to hammer the point home, that this were real human beings, who in an instant got snuffed out like a candle. For nothing. Dreams, families, lives shattered. Every single one an unspeakable tragedy!
Any kind of relativism shows a disregard of individual human life, and thus drags you down on a level with these killers.
Can't blame your mom really, serious propaganda brainwashing going on over in Russia feeding bs to people. It's scary.
How about Canada? Can we do something or is that jingoistic too?
Partial Gamification
Banned
I disagree in that being too emotionally invested leads to clouded judgement. It happens every day. Not always at this scale, but every single day. If you need to grieve, grieve; but don't imply those that would prefer to analyze this than wail about how horrible this is, because the latter accomplishes little collective good, are the same as the killers.
She has lived in Sweden for 23 years but she reads Putin owned websites. This guy who posts weird conspiracy stuff on Facebook is Swedish. His facebook https://www.facebook.com/CarlJNorberg?ref=ts&fref=ts
I'm sure Canadians have done something morally reprehensible enough in the past to have fingers wagged at you. Don't pretend you didn't create Justin Bieber.
I do not grieve, I am personally not involved.
Yet I do think, that reducing a lost life to a mere number and statistic shows a grave disregard to said life. The very same disregard for individual human life killers show.
Partial Gamification
Banned
I disagree its the same, and I think its completely hyperbolic to draw a parallel in (dis)respect toward human life. Let's agree to disagree and not draw this out.
d´accord
Looks like it's up to the tiny nation of Nauru to do something about Putin.
KnockOneOff
Banned
Yeah i heard this too from a Russian, guess thats what there media is saying
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