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[DarkFlow]

Forgive me if this has been asked already but I'm not reading through a 60 page thread.

Would the pilots have been aware that a missile was coming towards them or would they have been totally unaware until the missile made contact?
Maybe a tad morbid, I'm just curious if the pilots/passengers had time to think about what was going on before it happened or if it just all of a sudden hit the plane (from their perspective)

It's not a fighter jet, it would have no system to detect missile threats.

 

[t-storm]

You do realize that there were several other airlines taking the same flight path up to the time it was shot down, right? Including the plane of the India's Prime Minister which took the same path just an hour after it happened.

"Several"?

Yes and MANY others weren't like Air Canada who made the decision to stop flying over and reroute awhile ago and most likely did sensical risk assessments like Joey Fox pointed out.

 

[soxinthebox]

Sure not all americans agree with it, and ofc the responsible for this should pay. I was just pointing out that.

But at the same time that, 3 children died ont he roof of their house in Gaza. Everybody knows who fired the missile and noone gives a damn shit about it. And yes, I know the difference about 3 and 298, but if you count all events of this month in Gaza you will get the same amount of inocent lives lost. Wierd how people are so selective in terms of where to put their anger on. Anyway, this discussion doesn't belong to this thread.

I don't know about your country but in Australia the amount of coverage a news story receives is often linked to the number of Australians affected. It's obviously distorts what's happening in the rest of the world and it's something I question myself about in terms of empathy when it's not affecting my "world".

Stepping outside of my own brain it's obvious that all things are equal but for some reason I'm unable to think like that.

 

[cafemomo]

and continue lazy or dangerous behaviors

It's tragic. After two shoot downs one would think that they would close the airpsace around that area all together. But no one from the pilots and the people who approved that NOTAM would of had known that they would be taking down commercial airliners.

 

[genjiZERO]

That is the opposite of making light of the situation

What I mean, is that I think it's making light of the situation because it's almost certainly not going to happen, but, casually it feels like it could.

 

[mavs]

Not to make light off the situations, but it's all awfully WW3-esque. Russia starts a proxy war with the West and Israel raids Palestine within hours.

Was 2008 really so long ago?

 

[Switch Back 9]

It would have been extremely sudden. Barely enough time to register what is wrong with the plane, let alone that you've been hit with a missile.

Ugh, well I suppose that's a slightly better way to go considering the alternative. Still an unreal amount of awful, don't get me wrong.

It's not a fighter jet, it would have no system to detect missile threats.

I'm not an expert on the particulars of passenger plane radar systems vs. fighter jets (I'm aware the latter are probably more sophisticated and geared towards these kinds of things) hence my question. You'd think they have some form of warning system though just in case. Or maybe it's too expensive to put in passenger planes I don't know.

 

[Sayter]

All parties have responsibilities in this disaster except the victims. Hell, even the adult victims should be aware of the flight path if there's danger.

To ignore this would be to allow history to repeat. The security control preventing the loss of life failed. Do you really want airlines passing the buck to the safety agencies when your life is at risk?

Then what's the purpose of having safety agencies to begin with? To take personal responsibility is one thing. But to put shared blame on an airline that was perfectly in the right to be on the flight path it was, and then claim that Russians are being scapegoated, is utterly moronic beyond words.

 

[Sayter]

"Several"?

Yes and MANY others weren't like Air Canada who made the decision to stop flying over and reroute awhile ago and most likely did sensical risk assessments like Joey Fox pointed out.

Yeah. Several.

It wasn't until after the shoot down, that that corridor was deemed unsafe

here, 10 hours prior to MH17

V6158/14 NOTAMN
Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04023E095
A) URRV B) 1407170000 C) 1408312359 EST
E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN
FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY,
ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320

the corridor was closed up to 32,000 (last line)

the flight (and other flights) was well above that restriction

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

Forgive me if this has been asked already but I'm not reading through a 60 page thread.

Would the pilots have been aware that a missile was coming towards them or would they have been totally unaware until the missile made contact?
Maybe a tad morbid, I'm just curious if the pilots/passengers had time to think about what was going on before it happened or if it just all of a sudden hit the plane (from their perspective)

If the missile came from in front of the plane the pilots could have seen it visually. That's the only way.

 

[Jimrpg]

I don't know about your country but in Australia the amount of coverage a news story receives is often linked to the number of Australians affected. It's obviously distorts what's happening in the rest of the world and it's something I question myself about in terms of empathy when it's not affecting my "world".

Stepping outside of my own brain it's obvious that all things are equal but for some reason I'm unable to think like that.

This is the problem with Australia in general.

Its like they are far enough away from everybody else, that the media can report things for 'australians'. All the international news gets pushed to the middle of the newspaper where nobody reads it, and all the international news on TV is all on SBS. Then you have the local news on Channel 7, 9 and 10 that report on house burglaries or petrol prices or fad weight loss methods.

Look at the BBC, they generally push news thats relevant to the world as a whole not just for brits, thats left for the tabloids to fill.

 

[DarkFlow]

Ugh, well I suppose that's a slightly better way to go considering the alternative. Still an unreal amount of awful, don't get me wrong.



I'm not an expert on the particulars of passenger plane radar systems vs. fighter jets (I'm aware the latter are probably more sophisticated and geared towards these kinds of things) hence my question. You'd think they have some form of warning system though just in case. Or maybe it's too expensive to put in passenger planes I don't know.

It's not something a commercial plane would need really. They don't fly in hostile skys most of the time, and it's not really a war target because people will go ape shit if you do like you're seeing now.

Plus, even having a system that detects a missile lock is not going to do anything other let you know you're now dead. A 777 is not a nimble plane, it's a giant sky bus. They can't dodge the missile, and they don't carrry countermeasures.

 

[Yrael]

This is the problem with Australia in general.

Its like they are far enough away from everybody else, that the media can report things for 'australians'. All the international news gets pushed to the middle of the newspaper where nobody reads it, and all the international news on TV is all on SBS. Then you have the local news on Channel 7, 9 and 10 that report on house burglaries or petrol prices or fad weight loss methods.

Look at the BBC, they generally push news thats relevant to the world as a whole not just for brits, thats left for the tabloids to fill.

And then the SBS and ABC are condemned by our lovely government for not "batting enough for the home side." :/

 

[Dead Man]

This is the problem with Australia in general.

Its like they are far enough away from everybody else, that the media can report things for 'australians'. All the international news gets pushed to the middle of the newspaper where nobody reads it, and all the international news on TV is all on SBS. Then you have the local news on Channel 7, 9 and 10 that report on house burglaries or petrol prices or fad weight loss methods.

Look at the BBC, they generally push news thats relevant to the world as a whole not just for brits, thats left for the tabloids to fill.

It's the same in most places. ABC does a similar job to the BBC, more international focus and more serious coverage. American media is even worse than Australian media at selective reporting I think.

 

[cafemomo]

I'm not an expert on the particulars of passenger plane radar systems vs. fighter jets (I'm aware the latter are probably more sophisticated and geared towards these kinds of things) hence my question. You'd think they have some form of warning system though just in case. Or maybe it's too expensive to put in passenger planes I don't know.

FedEX has 9 of such "missile detection" installed on their jets. It's called the Northrop Grumman Guardian

It costs about $1 million to install on aircraft, but no commercial airliner has it installed yet

 

[Joey Fox]

Then what's the purpose of having safety agencies to begin with? To take personal responsibility is one thing. But to put shared blame on an airline that was perfectly in the right to be on the flight path it was, and then claim that Russians are being scapegoated, is utterly moronic beyond words.

I'm saying that Malaysian Airlines is scapegoating the safety agency for continuing to fly over Ukraine.

Whoever shot down the plane is obviously deplorable beyond words.

 

[ty_hot]

Not sure if ths was posted here, some history about airliners being shot down:

URSS destroyed a Korean Airlines flight back in 1983, inside URSS terirtory. 269 dead.

5 years later, USA attacked an Iran Air flight going from Teera to Dubai. USA never said sorry for the incident. 290 dead.

Cold war feelings.

 

[DarkFlow]

FedEX has 9 of such "missile detection" installed on their jets. It's called the Northrop Grumman Guardian

It costs about $1 million to install on aircraft, but no commercial airliner has it installed yet

That thing is only good for Stingers and it's like. It would have been useless vs a SAM.

 

[TheStruggler]

my uncle was supposed to be on that flight thank god he missed it because he was running late.

 

[cafemomo]

I'm saying that Malaysian Airlines is scapegoating the safety agency for continuing to fly over Ukraine.
.

You really can't fully blame them though.
NOTAM is taken with face value by pilots every day. No one would of have thought that they would start targeting civil airliners.

Yes they placed a warning up to a certain flight level, but after that certain flight level it was basically a regular flight corridor.

 

[UnObtainium17]

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/489970736166371328

Makes this story that much worse.

aw fuck not like this. as if this story can't get any worse.. this comes out.

 

[Diagol]

Yeah, looks like it's confirmed.

Several of the passengers were world-renowned AIDS researchers heading to a conference.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/07/17/malayaia-airlines-crash-passengers_n_5597796.html

SYDNEY - Several passengers on board a Malaysian jetliner shot down over Ukraine were world-renowned researchers heading to an international AIDS conference in Australia, officials said Friday.

"A number of people" on board the Boeing 777 were en route to the southern Australian city of Melbourne to attend the 20th International AIDS conference, which starts Sunday, Australian Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop told reporters in Brisbane.

The plane, which was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, crashed Thursday with 298 people on board. American intelligence authorities believe a surface-to-air missile brought the aircraft down but it was not yet clear who fired the missile.

At least 27 Australians were confirmed to be on board the plane, which was scheduled to continue flying to the western Australian city of Perth after stopping in Kuala Lumpur, Bishop said.

Among the passengers was former president of the International AIDS Society Joep Lange, a well-known HIV researcher from the Netherlands, opposition leader Bill Shorten said in parliament.

"There are Australians who would have planned to be at the airport tomorrow night to greet friends and family — amongst them, some of the world's leading AIDS experts," Shorten said. "The cost of this will be felt in many parts of the world."

Chris Beyrer, president-elect of the International AIDS Society, said if reports of Lange's death were true, "then the HIV/AIDS movement has truly lost a giant."

Former U.S. President Bill Clinton will deliver an address at next week's AIDS conference, which brings together thousands of scientists and activists from around the world to discuss the latest developments in HIV and AIDS research.

House of Representatives Speaker Bronwyn Bishop called for a moment of silence in parliament to honour the victims, adding that she was scheduled to address the AIDS conference on Monday.

"I know there will be many empty spots," Bishop said. "And I think that what we're doing is mourning with all of the world and all that had been lost. And we want to see justice but in a measured way."

The International AIDS Society issued a statement expressing its grief over the news that several of its colleagues and friends were on board.

"At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy," the group said.

I'm so angry!

 

[Dead Man]

Apologies if old: recording shows Russian colonel and rebels 'discussing disaster' – video

The Security Service of Ukraine has released a recording of what it says are conversations involving a rebel fighter named 'Bes', Russian Colonel Vasyl Mykolaiovych Geranin and Cossack military leader Mykola Kozitsyn discussing the downing of a Malaysia Airlines jet over eastern Ukraine. The transcript with this video was obtained independently by the Guardian

 

[neorej]

It is quite funny to see people blaming Russia for arming the rebels at the same time that their own country has been arming any armed group that could disrupt any countrie's government that is not fully aligned with their interest. And that is not happening from last month, or last year, or even the last decade.

I'm glad at least someone is getting a laugh out of this. Tell me, did you have a party at 9/11?

 

[antonz]

Hearing now the OSCE is being denied access to crash site by the "Rebels"

Totally cool if you are Russian Media though so you can trample all over a crime scene and dig through remains etc

 

[Sayter]

Apologies if old: recording shows Russian colonel and rebels 'discussing disaster' – video

There have a been a few videos of the conversation posted before. However, the authenticity of the conversations have not been confirmed yet.

 

[Qvoth]

any news on how the russians are reacting to this?

 

[Dead Man]

There have a been a few videos of the conversation posted before. However, the authenticity of the conversations have not been confirmed yet.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Jenov]

Not sure if ths was posted here, some history about airliners being shot down:

URSS destroyed a Korean Airlines flight back in 1983, inside URSS terirtory. 269 dead.

5 years later, USA attacked an Iran Air flight going from Teera to Dubai. USA never said sorry for the incident. 290 dead.

Cold war feelings.

the us paid money to the victims families a few years later

 

[rokkerkory]

we need to find the culprit asap, this is so sad

 

[params7]

Piss off with that rubbish.

Is it rubbish because the point is nothing new to Americans or do you disagree with what he said?

 

[Dominican Power]

I can't believe this kind of shit happens at all. Is there not a way to confirm if an aircraft is a threat?

 

[Kinan]

Ukraine' Emergency Service says they recovered 121 body so far. Says work is hard due to interference of armed militants in the area. Amazing that they are still functioning over there...

 

[superdeluxe]

Is it rubbish because the point is nothing new to Americans or do you disagree with what he said?

Because it is neither here or there. What America did 25 years ago has no baring or weight on what happened yesterday.

 

[michaelius]

Any idea whether there were any airlines that took active steps to avoid the zone before this incident?

Yes our polish airlines stopped flying through Donetsk region months ago.

 

[antonz]

Some good news. Even as the first black box is being handed over to Russia it seems Ukrainian rescue workers have managed to find the 2nd one.

@BuzzFeedNews · 9m
Rescue Workers Recover Second Flight Recorder From Malaysian Plane Crash In Eastern Ukraine - @Reuters Witness

 

[PaulExcellent]

I can't believe this kind of shit happens at all. Is there not a way to confirm if an aircraft is a threat?

There are ways, yes.
I don't think they even tried.

 

[MrKnives]

There are ways, yes.
I don't think they even tried.

Ways like what?

 

[munroe]

In case not everyone knows, update on nationalities aboard the plane:

Total number of passengers now 298 as opposed to the previous figure of 295 due to 3 infants which have now been counted.

Dutch: 154
Malaysians: 43
Australia: 27
Indonesia: 12
UK: 9
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canadian: 1

41 still to be identified


Source: Sky News @ 0700 BST 18/07/14

 

[antonz]

Ways like what?

Well the BUK Missile system is supposed to be comprised of 3 Vehicles. a Command and Control Vehicle, Target Tracking Vehicle and the actual Launcher system. It appears at least based on reports all that was used is the BUK launcher itself so they were missing some very valuable steps

 

[Jimrpg]

It's the same in most places. ABC does a similar job to the BBC, more international focus and more serious coverage. American media is even worse than Australian media at selective reporting I think.

I know. it just sucks about media in general. On one hand if its private, its all about sales. On the other if its government based like Malaysia or China (or even partly like BBC) you get biased political agendas.

Can't win!

Its really up to the private media companies to provide unbiased views, but its gotten worse in the last ten or twenty years.

 

[PaulExcellent]

Ways like what?

You see them, send them a beep, they respond with their beep, their beep identifies them.
If they don't respond, it's an issue and it goes from there to other stuff.

I'm not sure what I can talk about since I worked on some stuff related to stuff like this, so... Yeah.
Someone else that knows more can go in-depth.
Beeps and boops.

 

[Saganator]

Really sad about the AIDS researchers dying. I hope one day humanity will stop fighting over borders and land. So pointless, in the end. So much wasted energy put towards killing each other.

 

[Dead Man]

Is it rubbish because the point is nothing new to Americans or do you disagree with what he said?

It's utterly irrelevant to the thread, and yeah, it's not news. America does bad things too? No fucking shit. It contributes nothing.

 

[Jimrpg]

I can't believe this kind of shit happens at all. Is there not a way to confirm if an aircraft is a threat?

These things just shouldn't happen. Period. Airline policies and technology have been stone age like for some time now, and airlines unwilling to spend because it doesn't boost the bottom line by that much. We haven't heard anything about how the events of MH370 have changed airline policies in any way.

Coupled with the fact you have fighting going on still in this day and age leads to something like this happening. Surprised it hasn't happened before.

 

[Jimrpg]

Really sad about the AIDS researchers dying. I hope one day humanity will stop fighting over borders and land. So pointless, in the end. So much wasted energy put towards killing each other.

Yeah, I understand that there may be life long grudges or century's old hatred but seriously it needs to stop.

 

[warthog]

I think this will affect the way airline companies will handle flying over turbulent zones like this in the future. Even though the chance of this happening was very unlikely and could hardly be described as a risk, this will stay in peoples mind for a long time.

Damn, still can't fathom what happened.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

It's just been confirmed that the Australian death toll has gone from 27 to 28.

 

[xkramz]

We're living at delicAte times so much conflict..

 

[Alucrid]

These things just shouldn't happen. Period. Airline policies and technology have been stone age like for some time now, and airlines unwilling to spend because it doesn't boost the bottom line by that much. We haven't heard anything about how the events of MH370 have changed airline policies in any way.

Coupled with the fact you have fighting going on still in this day and age leads to something like this happening. Surprised it hasn't happened before.

Airlines aren't incredibly profitable to begin with, think of all the bankruptcies we've seen and M&A because of it. Then think of the fact that on any day the US alone has 87,000 are in its skies. Then think of how many accidents like the two you're discussing occur. That's why implementing any sort of "defense" system is illogical.