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you do realize Russia is also a part of it right? theyl'l just vote against it. and china will abstain
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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors
- Thread starter alfredofroylan
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you do realize Russia is also a part of it right? theyl'l just vote against it. and china will abstain
But you're comparing the BBC to our commercial networks. SBS and ABC have a good amount of international news coverage and they're basically our equivalent to the BBC.
Maybe that's the point. Maybe they want to try and wedge the Russians to see where they stand. This will become much bigger than MH17 politically very quickly.
Doczu
Member
Be really carefull what you wish for, because giving the seperatists weaponry to fight against Ukraine is one thing (and it's bad), but putting the blame only on Russia for a major fuck-up done by the seperatists (as already proven that they fucked up) is another.
If the seperatist pulled the trigger and they downed a civilian aircraft in place of a military one, then it's their fault and they should be punished to hell and beyond. Russia is (believed to be) responsible for shipping the weaponry, not shooting it. If they are proven to be more involved in it, then let them also take the blame.
EDIT: And before anyone says "giving them weapons is baaaaad!" - please recall the Cold War. Shipping weaponry to terrorists/seperatists/rebels was done by both parties as a way to fight wars by not involving in them directly.
Why even go as far back as the Cold War?
Dictator93
Member
But giving weapons to fuel a conflict is "baaaaaad!" Regardless of historical precedent for it during the east-west conflict or even more recently. We can normatively say, "countries should not do that."
I'm not wishing for it cos it's going to escalate already-high tensions in the region. I just think it's inevitable.
Also, Russia does deserve most of the blame if they are really supplying the separatists with such dangerous weapons. This kind if shit is exactly why you don't do it (see US reluctance to arm Syrian rebels)
Giving weapons to idiots with the only purpose to create chaos so you can benefit strategically out of it it is BAD. No matter who does it. No matter if someone else did it in the past.
MarkMclovin
Member
Could the black box be tampered with? Does it even matter if the other one gets in the hands of proper investigators?
Doczu
Member
O then "since the start of the cold war". And i fear this may turn into another situation like those. Both parties bleed out with the use of given weaponry, while the big players just sit and watch.
The black box can only make it clear that it wasn't an accident because of some technical failure or pilot action. More important are the fuselage pieces to analyze the explosion, the materials etc. I'm afraid that would be even more difficult to get for a proper investigation.
Sounds very reasonable. We dont have a lot of murders over here.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Is the blackbox even important since it's clear that the plane was crashed due to being shot and not because human error/technical/mechanical failure?
I mean, it records the situation *inside* the plane, right? Considering what happened, I seriously doubt anyone inside the plane during the incident would know what hit them.
I mean, it records the situation *inside* the plane, right? Considering what happened, I seriously doubt anyone inside the plane during the incident would know what hit them.
MikeHattsu
Member
Netherlands - 0.9 murders per 100.000 citizens
United States - 4.8 murders per 100.000 citizens
Shit.
Opus Angelorum
Member
It's possible someone in the cockpit was able to communicate what they think happened immediately after the hit (assuming the missile didn't strike the front of the plane).
well, data might indicate a sudden loss of basically everything; which probably only happens with outside harm. If it was an internal explosion, or mechanical damage, data might point to components not working or indicative measurements of something happening.
Probably helps to have a population less than 1/15 in size.
per 100.000
So what?
It's murders per people, not absolutes. we could take Europe as a whole and we would have smaller rate than the US.
But it's per 100 000.
Do you not understand what proportionnality means?
Relative numbers: how do they work?
Totally!
Well population size could matter if they are a greater abundance of urban areas or a greater population density, but in this case the poster above seemed to miss the point.
I still find it shocking that the two biggest stories of the year (Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines plane loss) managed to combine to produce this tragedy.
I still find it shocking that the two biggest stories of the year (Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines plane loss) managed to combine to produce this tragedy.
Tony Rocky Horror
Member
Ehh..
less than 1 murder per 100, 000 vs. almost 5 murders per 100,000. Assuming my math is correct that's, about 15,000 murders in the U.S.
I retract my statement.
You what now?
eot
Banned
Since math.
MarkMclovin
Member
I'm thinking maybe the voice recordings will be key. Shady as fuck of Russia to just go in and take it.
The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in the world with 488 people per km2 so that wouldn't work in this case either.
Strange there is still no word on the possible US American and French victims btw, i wonder why it is taking so long.
FreedomFighter
Member
I'm still puzzled that this flight was routed to fly over a battlezone. This is very suspicious to me.
SliceSabre
Banned
I honestly don't see what really could happen here.
Say for instance the rebels are to blame. The rebels are known to have stolen Ukraine BUK systems which could have taken out the plane. So what happens in the situation that instead of them having used Russian supplied weapons to take out the place, they used weapons they stole from Ukraine to take out the plane?
And even if it was found out it was Russian supplied weapons, so what are they gonna do? Throw more sanctions on Russia who will in turn sanction the EU and US and cause both the EU and Russian economies to collapse and then lead to another worldwide economic slump? And isn't there the angle that once you put enough sanctions on Russia Putin could say "Fuck it, their only next step would be to declare war on us. Begin the invasion of Eastern Ukraine."
Being a Permanent member of the UN Security Council means there really isn't a lot anyone can do against you.
Say for instance the rebels are to blame. The rebels are known to have stolen Ukraine BUK systems which could have taken out the plane. So what happens in the situation that instead of them having used Russian supplied weapons to take out the place, they used weapons they stole from Ukraine to take out the plane?
And even if it was found out it was Russian supplied weapons, so what are they gonna do? Throw more sanctions on Russia who will in turn sanction the EU and US and cause both the EU and Russian economies to collapse and then lead to another worldwide economic slump? And isn't there the angle that once you put enough sanctions on Russia Putin could say "Fuck it, their only next step would be to declare war on us. Begin the invasion of Eastern Ukraine."
Being a Permanent member of the UN Security Council means there really isn't a lot anyone can do against you.
Nikodemos
Member
I'm pretty certain plane status is more important, since pilots could've been knocked out by the hit (I mean, the vocorder is quite likely to have a shocked "WTF!" and then silence), whereas telemetry can usually (partially) function until complete failure (aircraft breaking up completely). This isn't similar to Air France 447, where the pilots realised about 45 seconds before impact that they were wrong about stall state.
They fly high enough that they're usually out of range of most weaponry. Flights go over warzones like Afghanistan and Iraq all the time
It was considered safe at that altitude by the international community...
Practically all flights going west to east where routed over this area. And Afghanistan. And Pakistan.
Flying over battlezones is pretty common.
It might provide some insight if the missile didn't hit the front part of the plane and the pilots survived the initial impact, but in the end it doesn't clarify what kind of missile was and who shot it. So there is not that much to cover up from the black boxes.
As I said, the fuselage (the impact zone especially) is more important in this case.
Not suspicious at all, first was high enough for most weapon systems to reach and there was a storm over the usual route
Too bad international attempts at independent investigation are slim as long as the separatists are in control of roads leading in and out of the area.
Meanwhile, Russia is doubling down on yesterday's comments:
Russia: Ukraine missile system radar active day MH17 was downed
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