Necromanti
Member
Considering there were witnesses, I'd hope not.
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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors
- Thread starter alfredofroylan
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Or the Russian separatists prevented a plane full of HIV and AIDS researchers from entering Russia and infecting the mass population.
MEDALS ALL AROUND!!
Russia has more or less bought Germany and Italy so Sanctions are never a serious threat
Yup. What's more likely?
1. The rebels given sophistical equipment that can shoot down aircraft at high altitudes who have shot down cargo planes in the past (and bragged about it) ended up accidentally shooting down a passenger airline not knowing how to differentiate between civilian and military aircraft.
2. The Ukrainian military shot down a civilian plane over their own territory when it's an area where their own cargo planes have been lost and if they somehow didn't know how to use their own equipment they're properly trained on if they even have anything to hit that high since the Russians used an Ukrainian SU-25 to blame which is something that doesn't have a high flight ceiling and a SAM would be much more probable.
Combine that with the fact of everything we've heard about the investigation and cleanup and how the rebels bragged about shooting this one down and immediately deleted it, I'm not sure how you could blame Ukraine unless it's some sort of conspiracy and that's not some "anti-Russian" stance but the most logical stance from what we know. Now everything else that's been reported about Russia taking evidence back to Moscow might have some misinformation but there's A LOT of reports and even the odd stuff like a Russia gov. computer editing the wiki page of the event makes you scratch your head. Why would the rebels keep investigators and reporters away and why would stuff be sent to Moscow without anyone else seeing it? If the video was real, the launchers being sent back to Russia is pretty coincidental as well, eh?
I don't think they did it on purpose, but they're covering up their presence in Ukraine and the gear they gave to the rebels which lead to this tragedy. An accident that still needs resolution nonetheless.
If forming that opinion from all of these reports is somehow bloodlust, then I have some major bloodlust even with my own country when it comes to choosing the facts in front of me instead of what I WANT to believe.
I mean, there's always the chance that this could be some conspiracy but I don't think there's an equal chance of the Ukrainian military doing this at all. These anti-air systems are extremely complicated and takes a lot of training to use properly and anyone in the military with that sort of training would know this wasn't a military aircraft. Friendly fire on the ground in a war zone is one thing, but friendly fire against civilian planes that high up in your own country is slim to none. It's only happened 7 times in the past and they weren't anything like this.
Some people will have their hatred for another country known (on both sides as evident in every thread based on this region), but that doesn't mean every single person is putting their emotions above everything else when they come to the most logical conclusion so far (obviously ever changing as more info comes out) based on what we know.
That's why in situations like this conspiracy idiots play the "false flag" card...
jonnyp
Member
Notice how the eastern Ukrainians resisting the fascist and corporate mob that took over Kiev a few months ago are now almost exclusively called "pro-Russian separatists"?
Notice how even though everyone knows the civilian jet was shot down by mistake by people fighting for their freedom in a war zone, the media and those influenced by it are acting like it was purposeful mass murder?
Notice how the above mentioned mob have killed many more civilians than the 300 who perished but those people apparently aren't worth mentioning even a thousandth as much?
The main subject of this tragedy has to be the tonnes of devastated people and broken families caused by so many innocent lives cut short.
In future years though I think when people look back at the legacy this will be seen as the event that enabled Kiev and NATO to manoeuvre their way to victory and take control of all Ukraine. Which is unfortunate.
Notice how even though everyone knows the civilian jet was shot down by mistake by people fighting for their freedom in a war zone, the media and those influenced by it are acting like it was purposeful mass murder?
Notice how the above mentioned mob have killed many more civilians than the 300 who perished but those people apparently aren't worth mentioning even a thousandth as much?
The main subject of this tragedy has to be the tonnes of devastated people and broken families caused by so many innocent lives cut short.
In future years though I think when people look back at the legacy this will be seen as the event that enabled Kiev and NATO to manoeuvre their way to victory and take control of all Ukraine. Which is unfortunate.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
You've got to be shitting me x2
Notice how this post is full of insanity. And god forbid the capital of the country control Ukraine :/
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
By fascist mob I can only assume you mean democratically elected government. I am very interested to hear what your media sources have been for the last six months.
1: You do realise those are different people right? The first rebels were those that fought against the corrupt pro russian regime. those around eastern Ukraine that shot down the plane are rebels that are against those first rebels.
2: Were do you see that the plane shot down was a planned mass murder? All I see is that its still under investigation and that the pro-russian rebels probably thought it was a non-civilian plane.
3: These are the first 300 people that were killed even though they weren't in any way involved. But I do agree, its a shame that there wasn't more information on the news about the ukraine. But that's probably because its not a country that is directly related to the West.
luckygodzilla
Member
Oh really? Care to provide any examples of how Kiev restricted freedoms in the east before Russia started shipping munitions and soldiers into another country like it was going out of style?
I forget. Was it the facist corporate mob using snipers against unarmed protesters, or eastern Ukrainians?
Haha!
You are wrong.
The last parliamentary election was in 2012 and was won by the "pro-Russian" Party of Regions. They were ousted in the revolution alongside the democratically elected President Yankuvich.
Since the revolution there was a Presidential election last month won by that billionaire guy whose name I've forgotten and a load of mini elections in the east and Crimea with massive majorities declaring they wanted nothing to do with the new Government post-revolution.
MisterFalcon
Member
You see, independent* investigations have not determined who shot who so some people assume it was automatically done by the side they don't like.
*independent here means any report that says something contrary to what the True Believer thinks is invalid as it was not indepentent enough. It's a weasel word to avoid having to change your mind.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
No he's not talking about that. He's making the very common accusation (from pro-Russian sources) that when the former President was kicked out of office, the government that formed was run by fascists, and that it was a "fascist coup". You can mix in conspiracies about NATO / US backing for the fascists more or less at will. Russian news sources have been spinning this and related narratives since the start of the year.
What's really scary is that the Russian propaganda really seems to be working on some people. Especially so if you manage to live near Russia and got your independence from them just recently.
Oh apparently the Rebels now guarantee safety for monitors if Kiev will declare a truce and end the fighting. Coming across the wire now. I guess half of Luhansk liberated and Donetsk being all they have left has them worried now.
@AFP · 19m
#BREAKING: Rebels say will 'guarantee safety' of #MH17 crash site monitors if Kiev agrees truce
@AFP · 19m
#BREAKING: Rebels say will 'guarantee safety' of #MH17 crash site monitors if Kiev agrees truce
People seem to have forgotten due to the overabundance of Russian propaganda that there were and are ultranationalist and fascist elements that aided the Maiden protestors and are currently aiding the side of the Ukrainian government, whether those be Right Sector or members of the Azov Battalion.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
"We had 48 hours to tamper with evidence you can come check it out if you want"
MisterFalcon
Member
The way the rebels have been operating so far the monitors will run into some thug who'll say 'I know nothing of this, get out you Kiev lackeys !'.
Oh that is guaranteed. The Chechen Squads very loosely operate with the Russian Squads. Both sides have had open conflict before with each other.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
They were ousted by a popular revolution, not some shady back-room conspiracy. When the president fled the rest of the elected Parliament did not suddenly evaporate. Everyone who was in parliament was voted there. An interim government was formed because the president fled the country, until a new president could be confirmed by election in 2014, which they were.
Russian special forces and Russian armed militias seized control of Crimea, which they unilaterally annexed. But I know you're going to claim it was a totally legit election and that there were obviously no Russian military units taking control of Crimea (even though Putin has now actually admitted that there were). Russia has since funding, training and equipping separatists in the Eastern regions, and in all likelihood deploying small special forces units too. And as far as we can tell, Russia supplied the exact missile system that downed this passenger aircraft with 300 civilians onboard. The fact that these separatists are now losing because Ukraine is actually fighting this time is probably rustling your jimmies extremely hard.
I mean Pavlov is a Russian name even so it was pretty obvious I think from the start that post is sadly not satire
Must be a person whose only main media sources are Russian ones.
What a load of guilt by name association nonsense that is lol.
Are you Russian, yes or no?
Not saying this is what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time the Ukrainian military shot down a civilian airplane, so anything is on the table tbh.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/14/world/after-9-days-ukraine-says-its-missile-hit-a-russian-jet.html
If it's the separists, I do hope Russia will finally recognize the havoc this group is causing and help the Ukrainian government do something about it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/14/world/after-9-days-ukraine-says-its-missile-hit-a-russian-jet.html
If it's the separists, I do hope Russia will finally recognize the havoc this group is causing and help the Ukrainian government do something about it.
I'm just making a fairly educated assumption. Pavlov is a Russian name; we know that Russian media is objectively amongst the most corrupt and inaccurate media markets on the planet amongst first world countries. I mean there is an actual organization that rates this, and it's fellow journalists that do the ratings and they do it off rigorous standards. Ergo, if you are Russian and you are getting your information from Russian media sources, it makes sense your post would be serious, even though the claims within it are clearly absurd on the surface and factually obscene.
I am suggesting in other words that due to what you are being introduced to on a daily basis in your media sources, you may have a warped perspective on what is actually happening in this region, and why most of the world is so sure of what we are sure of. I am not sure why that is "guilt by name association", unless you feel you should feel guilty of something. It is simply something anyone in a similar situation might do. If I was raised in Iran for example, I might have a specific view of America or the UK, because of the type of information I was allowed to be influenced by. The same is true of me being from America, and it'd be true of you if you lived in a region either in Russia or strongly friendly to Russia with Russian-type media sources.
It just so happens however that Russian media happens to be particularly corrupt, and even considering how corrupt American media is, it's no competition.
daxy said:
How did they shoot it down from a region controlled by pro-Russian separatists, since we have factually tracked that as the source of the missile
how
I'm getting so depressed and angry, the bodies should be brought home, not used in this game that is going on. And these so called "freedom fighters" so be brought to trail, if someone accidentily kills the wrong person he's a murderer. If someone presses a button which leads to accidentily shooting down a plane with 300 people onboard he's a mass murderer. Period.
It's not unthinkable that such a thing could have happened is what I was getting at. I haven't had the chance to read about this study unfortunately.
Russian media is writing about the aircraft being requested to fly at a lower altitude by Ukrainian air traffic controllers.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0FN1HR20140718?irpc=932
The Dutch prime minister apparently had a serious conversation with Putin, urging him to take responsibility and show the Russians gov's willingness to ameliorate the situation in Ukraine.
http://mobiel.nu.nl/algemeen/3832485/rutte-geschokt-respectloos-gedrag-rampplek.html
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I don't see how flying at 35,000 feet vs 33,000 feet makes any difference. Maybe someone knows more about it but it sure doesn't seem like an issue.
It's not, it's still high enough only SAMS could get it.
Relevance and consistency aren't important when spreading disinformation and propaganda.
absolutely. it's also not unthinkable that aliens used a remote-control-ray from venus to launch that missile.
the separatists shot down multiple ukrainian planes in the last couple of weeks/months. the ukraine shot down zero planes, for the simple reason that they don't need to, since the separatists have none.
the separatists reported to have shot down an Antonov transporter around the time MH17 went down, later deleting those posts.
and now you come in here insinuating that it was a AA-exercise gone wrong. an AA-exercise over territory controlled by hostile ground forces and ground forces only.
I don't think the conversation was as intense as our PM said it was.
http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/22700
Oh the first thing you will learn with Kremlin press Releases especially on conversations etc is they twist those badboys more than a stretch armstrong. Early on during the Crimea invasion it was amazing how US would talk about condemnation towards Russia then Russia would release their version claiming the US supported them etc
You do realize there have been several *independent reports based on eyewitness accoubts from both civilian and reporters who actually witnessed the shootings, and then were able to trace back to who actually pulled the trigger.
*independent here means that I've followed the story closely and know when something is or isn't bullshit. So the next time you want to call me out on something you better have something better than innuendo.
And_Gignac
Member
AP said:
Wow. Absolutely disgusting.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Well, could be to a morgue
petran79
Banned
Ukraine is not switzerland or sweden though.
Human rights and freedom of the press are very low in their agenda.
same autocracy and corruption as russia.
ConfusingJazz
Member
But don't worry, we're waiting for evidence that Russia didn't do this.
GasProblem
Member
According to Duch news a rebel leader said they brought them to Donetsk and that they will stay there until specialists arrive. And that there is a (temporary) agreement and that the rebels will allow specialists to take away the bodies in cooling wagons with the watching eye of the OVSE, as long as Ukraine agrees to a ceasefire.
ConfusingJazz
Member
So they are holding onto the corpses as ransom?
GasProblem
Member
Well, they are saying that they will guarantee the safety of foreign specialists at the crash site, as long as Ukraine agrees to a ceasefire. So yes, I'd say they are using the situation to get a ceasefire out of it.
ConfusingJazz
Member
That's a hell of a tactic. Shoot a plane out of the sky, and then hold the corpses for ransom.
Awesome.
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