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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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News from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/20/ukraine-crisis-bodies-idUSL6N0PV06520140720

(Reuters) - Railway workers said on Sunday bodies from the site where the Malaysian airliner crashed in eastern Ukraine had been loaded into refrigerator wagons at a station in the town of Torez, 15 km (nine miles) away.

A Reuters witness could see five grey trucks at the station, one of which appeared to have the refrigeration switched on.

"Something was delivered and they told us to wait," one railway worker said on condition of anonymity, adding that the "something" were bodies.

"It's corpses. They brought the bodies overnight," a duty officer at the Torez station told Reuters.

The wagons, he said, were due to be transported "in the direction of Ilovaisk", a town further to the east towards the border with Russia. (Reporting by Anton Zverev, writing by Elizabeth Piper, editing by Timothy Heritage)

Well, atleast the positive news is that the bodies are being cooled.
 

CHEEZMO™

Obsidian fan
lol @ all these people regurgitating the bullshit their ~alternative news media~ have been spoonfeeding them. Even waited a few days before they got their talking points in order, I see.
 

Sibylus

Banned
That's a hell of a tactic. Shoot a plane out of the sky, and then hold the corpses for ransom.

Awesome.
Hell of a tactic, but suffice to say one mounted out of desperation. Ukraine presses their advantage with virtual impunity and the separatists and their Russian sponsors lose massive legitimacy on the world stage. Could be said they shot their hopes for an independent state out of the sky too.
 
Hell of a tactic, but suffice to say one mounted out of desperation. Ukraine presses their advantage with virtual impunity and the separatists and their Russian sponsors lose massive legitimacy on the world stage. Could be said they shot their hopes for an independent state out of the sky too.
Let's see how much rope they need to hang themselves with. Then sitback and watch them hang.
 
What's the score card to date on innocent deaths caused by interference from bigger countries in smaller countries affairs?

Russia in Ukraine/Georgia = < 1000

US/UK in Iraq/Afghanistan = > 200,000


..Hmmm, we still win.
 

antonz

Member
What's the score card to date on innocent deaths caused by interference from bigger countries in smaller countries affairs?

Russia in Ukraine/Georgia = < 1000

US/UK in Iraq/Afghanistan = > 200,000


..Hmmm, we still win.

what an amazing compelling post.

Shows the game being played.

@maxseddon 51s
The guards all vanished after the OSCE monitors left. Literally nobody is guarding the #MH17 bodies. Astonishing.

OSCE around? Make sure lots of automatic weapons and drunken russians to scare them off. Oh they left? everyone go home.
 

Tugatrix

Member
What's the score card to date on innocent deaths caused by interference from bigger countries in smaller countries affairs?

Russia in Ukraine/Georgia = < 1000

US/UK in Iraq/Afghanistan = > 200,000


..Hmmm, we still win.

Hey let's not forget the Russian invasion of the Afghanistan and Praga 68, to make a score board one must be fair.
 

demolitio

Member
What's the score card to date on innocent deaths caused by interference from bigger countries in smaller countries affairs?

Russia in Ukraine/Georgia = < 1000

US/UK in Iraq/Afghanistan = > 200,000


..Hmmm, we still win.

Wow, that settles this one. Maybe we can get this on some condolence letters to these families since this should obviously make them feel better.

Real relevant to the topic at hand and shows why any news thread on the region will ultimately go to shit...You get to a point where you can't tell which posts are meant to be satire and which posts are just plain absurd. This is like the "Sony too!" argument brought to foreign policy...lol

At least this RT reporter decided to resign after having to make some embarrassing remarks this past year alone:

Sara Firth @Sara__Firth · 1h
I resigned from RT today. I have huge respect for many in the team, but I'm for the truth.
 

Amir0x

Banned
What's the score card to date on innocent deaths caused by interference from bigger countries in smaller countries affairs?

Russia in Ukraine/Georgia = < 1000

US/UK in Iraq/Afghanistan = > 200,000


..Hmmm, we still win.

Observe this post closely, GAFers. This poster thought it was a rational, compelling argument to make that one countries 'crimes' are numerically worse than another's, therefore some imaginary competition has been won and the actual outrage over this event is rendered pointless by the ethical/moral disproportionality of the deaths!

"Hey, haha you guys. Ok so yeah I murdered those three people. But you see Bob over there? He murdered six. Oh yeah, I'd say I'm winning guys. Go me!"
 
Ukraine is not switzerland or sweden though.

Human rights and freedom of the press are very low in their agenda.
same autocracy and corruption as russia.


It's not even close (anymore). There is a variety of private media outlets of which only one belongs to the president (Channel 5) - which he created some 10 years ago and will now most likely have to sell or turn into a PBS-like channel to comply with the EU-association agreement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Kanal_(Ukraine)

Its ratings are not great either:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_language_television_channels#Most-viewed_channels
At the same time, the ONLY Kremlin-indeptendet channel in Russia is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dozhd and it's not even on terrestrial tv (from what I understand). There are a few radio stations and newspapers - the rest is Kremlin-controlled (most of them directly through state holdings).
Russia's media: Dozhd is tuned out | The Economist

And even that little channel has to furiously fight for its survival:
BBC News - Liberal Russian TV Dozhd fights closure amid boycott
State Bans Advertising on Cable and Satellite Channels | The St. Petersburg Times

So freedom of press definitely got a boost.

As far as freedom of speech & demonstrations go, after Maidan there is also a world of difference when compared to Russia where as much as waving a Ukrainian flag on the red square will get you fucked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCxf9MtTpsw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAufypxrFUo


The EU-agreement will hopefully help them fight corruption and introduce more political hygiene.

/also this:
Annexation of Crimea will cut off 14,000 drug users from critical HIV prevention services

Through the various revolutions Ukraine and Russia gradually diverged as far as human rights go.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
So as we stand now the Russian separatists are holding the bodies and the crash site "hostage" for negotiating a truce? If that's true can we call the terrorists, practically?

I understand and I believe they shot the plane by mistake/incompetence, but all the further actions they took, like tampering the crash site and not allowing investigators to check and now this make them 100 times more guilty.
 

Martian

Member
So apperently they took 198 bodies away. Seriously what the fuck?

Could be to make sure that they don't decay, but a pretty weird move if you don't announce it beforehand.

Please don't fucking escalate this, people. Its already a disaster without people taking advantage of the situation to force some kind of a deal
 
What's the score card to date on innocent deaths caused by interference from bigger countries in smaller countries affairs?

Russia in Ukraine/Georgia = < 1000

US/UK in Iraq/Afghanistan = > 200,000


..Hmmm, we still win.

Ummmmm. Russia has a horrible history with Afghanistan as well.
 

Hindle

Banned
This tragedy will hopefully make Putin think twice about this Colonial project of his. I had a horrible feeling that if he was successful here, then he was going to invade Georgia.
 

Amir0x

Banned
This tragedy will hopefully make Putin think twice about this Colonial project of his. I had a horrible feeling that if he was successful here, then he was going to invade Georgia.

yeah this event really helped us avoid World War III ;)

&#1769; &#8594; &#1758; &#8594; &#1757; &#8594; &#1161; &#8594; &#1781;
 

Knurek

Member
Ummmmm. Russia has a horrible history with Afghanistan as well.

Plus all those Poles they murdered/deported to Siberia.
Plus few millions of Ukrainians Stalin starved in early 20th Century.

oh don't you start that! First now we'd have to calculate the number of slaves America transported to our shores and how many died in transit or from brutal treatment. Then we'd have to multiply that by...
;)

Some folks ITT would argue that you haven't shown any evidence about the existence of slave ships, so you're surely just following GAF-approved narrative with regards to slavery.
 

DaMan121

Member
Urgh, really frustrating talking to some friends and family recently. I get their barracking of Russia as a beacon of dissent against the US and NATO that have meddled in affairs all over the world, but honestly Russia is just as much, if not bigger, of an asshole. If they had the money, influence and opportunity of the US they would have done the same thing.
 

Surfheart

Member
What makes you think I want vengeance satisfied? But technically, I would consider Putin a war criminal that will never be brought to justice. I feel horrible for the families. We should put a stop to any expansion of his influence.

He's lying to his people, Russian journalists resigning. Fight the spread of evil. This shouldn't be about vengeance.


And he is. But this is akin to stepping on a bug next to what he did in Chechnya...
 

antonz

Member
Ukraine Security Council is reporting a fresh russian convoy broke the border.

@RutheniaRus 23m
4 tanks, 3 IFVs, 3 GRADs, 4 APCs, Ural tracks entered Ukraine fr Russia via vil Bilenke Lugansk reg. - NSDC Ukraine

So even with all of this still sending Rebel reinforcements. Security Council also has mentioned a notable build up of Artillery and Armor moving to Ukraine Border from Crimea.
 

Zukuu

Banned
Ukraine Security Council is reporting a fresh russian convoy broke the border.



So even with all of this still sending Rebel reinforcements. Security Council also has mentioned a notable build up of Artillery and Armor moving to Ukraine Border from Crimea.
So, this might be the 3rd truce they intentionally break? Fool me once...
 

Amir0x

Banned
Ukraine Security Council is reporting a fresh russian convoy broke the border.



So even with all of this still sending Rebel reinforcements. Security Council also has mentioned a notable build up of Artillery and Armor moving to Ukraine Border from Crimea.

I'll wait for further confirmation from other countries about the analysis of what just happened here, but if this is true Russia is playing some bold ass football right now. I don't know what their end game really is. No world wars are going to be fought and there's only downsides to continuing to fuel this deadly game at this point, and Crimea has thus far been a costly little land grab which they have seen few if any benefits from yet. Every day it becomes more crystal clear what Russia is playing at, and every day they lose yet more influence on the world political stage, which Putin wants more than anything. Every day sanctions and other actions begin to hurt Russia ever so slightly more, and the impact is already becoming clear even at this early stage. How far do they want to push this silly thing?
 

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Statement from the US Embassy in Ukraine:

United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors.

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems.

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft.

At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11.

Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems.

Social media postings on Thursday show an SA-11 system traveling through the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight MH17.

Ukraine also operates SA-11 systems, but we are confident no Ukrainian air defense systems were within range of the crash. Ukrainian forces have also not fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict, despite often complaining about violations of their airspace by Russian military aircraft.

Shortly after the crash, separatists – including the self-proclaimed “Defense Minister” of the Donetsk People’s Republic Igor Strelkov – claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on social media.

In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM system.

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists.

Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch.

Events on the ground at the crash site clearly demonstrate that separatists are in full control of the area.
 
Urgh, really frustrating talking to some friends and family recently. I get their barracking of Russia as a beacon of dissent against the US and NATO that have meddled in affairs all over the world, but honestly Russia is just as much, if not bigger, of an asshole. If they had the money, influence and opportunity of the US they would have done the same thing.
Some of my lefty friends do the same and love to indulge in whataboutism while COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that the current Russian society has nothing to do with its Soviet Union counterpart (when viewed overly idealistic). It has become incredibly fascist in that it embraces a tyrant-like strong leader, while celebrating hyper-nationalism and militarism (yes yes, just like the U.S.) along with a dash of religious supremacy / symbolism. Both societies didn't like freedom too much, but fuck that - who cares.

But it's also super weird when lefties do that as Russia has a country with some of the highest wealth inequalities worldwide:
In the days of the Soviet Union, the country boasted that all its citizens shared the wealth equally, but a new report has found that a mere 20 years after the end of Communism, wealth disparity has soared with 35% of the country’s entire wealth now in the hands of just 110 people.

“Russia has the highest level of wealth inequality in the world, apart from small Caribbean nations with resident billionaires,” Credit Suisse’s annual global wealth report says.
http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2013/10/09/who-wants-to-be-a-russian-billionaire/

Good opinion piece: Who is responsible for the MH17 tragedy? - albeit a bit outdated since Russia is now directly involved in the conflict as Russian military personnel gets killed and captured in Ukraine while they fire with Grad MRLs on Ukrainian troops from their side of the borer.
 
No he's not talking about that. He's making the very common accusation (from pro-Russian sources) that when the former President was kicked out of office, the government that formed was run by fascists, and that it was a "fascist coup". You can mix in conspiracies about NATO / US backing for the fascists more or less at will. Russian news sources have been spinning this and related narratives since the start of the year.

The problem, that only president was re-elected and like 4-5 people was shifted from their post, so Verkhovna Rada and all other people, that in government is the same. So claiming about government was replaced with fascist's is stupid as it was just completed, replacing those, who run away to Russia. Yanycovich clearly was Kremlin puppet. In last night before he flee, he has meeting with opposition and they waiting until morning, as Yanukovich was afraid to call to Russia for Putin, to not wake him up. Why he eben consider to call to another country? Does he has no his own brain (actually he isn't but still)? Asking from above is reaction of subordinate.
 

tomasdk

Member
It's interesting to see how any news from the west is treated like borderline fact and anything from the east is automatically Russian propaganda. I know people who are each taking a different side in this and from what they tell me it's clear to me that both sides spew so much bullshit that pretty much the truth is not even in this universe anymore. And I'm sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes of which no one knows about, people just see one random comment and suddenly it's fact. My facebook is full of it, it's starting to get really irritating to read
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
how do you know the Ukrainians are not just lying?

I think the Russians were especially talking bullshit knowing they were recorded, so they make the fascist government unveil their fascist methods of recording their own honest and law abiding citizens. Do they even have a mandate for that? What's next? Shooting journalists? Oh, wait.

I am doing this right?

My facebook is full of it, it's starting to get really irritating to read

Those 298 civilians dead must be so irritating, I know.
 

reckless

Member
It's interesting to see how any news from the west is treated like borderline fact and anything from the east is automatically Russian propaganda. I know people who are each taking a different side in this and from what they tell me it's clear to me that both sides spew so much bullshit that pretty much the truth is not even in this universe anymore. And I'm sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes of which no one knows about, people just see one random comment and suddenly it's fact. My facebook is full of it, it's starting to get really irritating to read

Well if most of the news from the "East" wasn't just Russian propaganda maybe people would pay more attention to it.
 

Amir0x

Banned
It's interesting to see how any news from the west is treated like borderline fact and anything from the east is automatically Russian propaganda. I know people who are each taking a different side in this and from what they tell me it's clear to me that both sides spew so much bullshit that pretty much the truth is not even in this universe anymore. And I'm sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes of which no one knows about, people just see one random comment and suddenly it's fact. My facebook is full of it, it's starting to get really irritating to read

I mean both media has corruption in it, but it's not an equal level of corruption. There are independent journalistic organizations that evaluate this sort of thing, and Russia media is ranked amongst the worst of all first world nations. And it's not some US-led conspiracy of journalists or some shit. This is a worldwide consortium of journalists who decide this stuff based on a wide ranging level of serious, stringent criteria.

So yes you can with some fair degree percentage higher trust American news media sources than you could Russian media sources, although in both cases you should use your common sense to scrutinize anything you read, and compare it to other viable sources and see how the facts line up.

King Snake said:
I think the Russians were especially talking bullshit knowing they were recorded, so they make the fascist government unveil their fascist methods of recording their own honest and law abiding citizens. Do they even have a mandate for that? What's next? Shooting journalists? Oh, wait.

I am doing this right?

you're so gullible King Snake. Eating up Ukrainian lies at face value. tsc tsc.
 
Are the rebels using Playskool walkie talkies or something? How is Ukraine intercepting these conversations? (I'm asking because I don't know, I'm not accusing them of making this up.)

As mobile phone coverage is not full and can be turn down by Ukrainian government, it is logical to use walkie-talkie, through I don't know how easy it to intercept signal.
 
Are the rebels using Playskool walkie talkies or something? How is Ukraine intercepting these conversations? (I'm asking because I don't know, I'm not accusing them of making this up.)

There are radio waves that hit antennas. Seriously, that's all it is. The separatists aren't James Bond, they have cell phones and radio phones like everyone else.
 

Tugatrix

Member
Are the rebels using Playskool walkie talkies or something? How is Ukraine intercepting these conversations? (I'm asking because I don't know, I'm not accusing them of making this up.)

they surely have the encryption keys of rebels walkies, it's easy if you have one informant inside the rebel camp with access to that intel
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
Are the rebels using Playskool walkie talkies or something? How is Ukraine intercepting these conversations? (I'm asking because I don't know, I'm not accusing them of making this up.)

Dude, they are mostly mine workers, alcoholics and ex-soldier from Russia. Their IQs must have quite low and unaware the communication security. Voluntary for free booze and fags and some money from Russia.
 
Are the rebels using Playskool walkie talkies or something? How is Ukraine intercepting these conversations? (I'm asking because I don't know, I'm not accusing them of making this up.)

We're talking about some yokels with AK-47s, they don't have any other way to communicate outside of easily intercepted devices.
 

Chariot

Member
Dude, they are mostly mine workers, alcoholics and ex-soldier from Russia. Their IQs must have quite low and unaware the communication security. Voluntary for free booze and fags and some money from Russia.
That's a bit harsh, but true in the core. The rebels are just that - rebels. Civilians that took up arms, even the russian support can't train or equip them within a few weeks to full army.
So it's no wonder they fall short on the intelligence level.
 

braves01

Banned
Are you guys joking around in here, or do some of you actually think Russian media have the better half of the truth on this one? Most of the shit coming from Russian sources and especially Putin himself is ridiculous bordering on offensive in the bullshit department.
 

Chariot

Member
Are you guys joking around in here, or do some of you actually think Russian media have the better half of the truth on this one? Most of the shit coming from Russian sources and especially Putin himself is ridiculous bordering on offensive in the bullshit department.
I think some people just hate the west and play enemy of my enemy.
 
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