TacticalFox88
Banned
Zod is still a pretty cool villain. At least aesthetic wise.
Just an overall badass appearance.
Just an overall badass appearance.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Man of Steel |OT| It's about action.
- Thread starter MisterHero
- Start date
Liquidsnake
Banned
I would say the ending is bold. A meditation on the human spirit.
For your consideration.
For your consideration.
Can Crusher
Banned
Well they did send them in a big ass ship, that apparently could be retro fitted to become a terraformer......
Again it's just a concept. He was bred for that purpose. Now what? That's it? That's what the character is then, a robot programmed to protect his people through war and death?
He's empty. There's no difference between that, and a guy who wants to rule the universe because he was bred to do so. It's one concept, and they ran with it. He wasn't particularly smart about it, there was no self awareness of any kind, he was essentially Doomsday with speaking ability.
Sure it could've laid a foundation to build upon, but the movie made it something else. It actively tried to define a relationship that was still in its first steps, deciding to skip any sort of build up... like the rest of the movie.
Cliff notes, that's what it all was. For a superman fan, he will relate because he has seen it a thousand times and understands quickly what it means for the character. In the movie though, it was just these rushed isolated scenes that wanted to quickly deliver the big moments that built Clark Kent, or Superman. But I didn't even get to know Clark Kent, it was all just about this mishandled conflict he has with his powers and how he fits in the world. We see these moments, and we get an idea but we never really got to know Clark.
And that's why when he becomes Superman... it just felt like it was going through the motions.
I would say it was the only complicated relationship, and sadly it was rushed.
Well if character development fails, pacing fails.... we look to the plot. And this was just a vanilla alien invasion plot with Superman and his super enemies in it.
I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty damn sure they were sent to the black hole in the massive tripod. And also, how come this advanced species didn't know their planet was going to blow up? That doesn't even make sense.
Agree to disagree.
No. Just no. They found the world machine at one of the other planets outposts. I guess when you don't pay attention, the movie might seem flawed.
Firstly, Zod's ship was not military in nature, but they retrofitted the phantom drive to be able to travel with it (explained in the movie). Secondly, Zod and his crew were scouting the universe for 33 years. They visited many abandoned Kryptonian outposts and collected armor, weapons , and supplies, one being the world machine.
Can Crusher
Banned
I will bet you anything that they got sent to the black hole in the tripod. What they found in the colonies were weapons and world engine.
That world engine was placed in the big ass tripod. Now my question is, why were they sent to the phantom zone in a huge ship, why is it that when Krypton exploded they got free, and how is it that they could simply plug a world engine in that tripod and make a terraformer machine out of it... I mean was that thing even supposed to be a prison?
But you are right, they found the world engine... and somehow this incredibly advanced civilization couldn't predict its own world exploding, not even days before it happened. Come on. A bunch of nonsense.
SUPARSTARX
Member
They salvaged the world engine, weapons, and supplies from the dead outposts after they got out of the phantom zone.
The "World Engine" is the terraforming machine. They didn't "make a terraformer" out of it, it was one already as that was it's purpose.
I bet if scientists tried to convince Republicans that our mining of earth's natural resources might lead to an unstable core they definitely would paint you as a lying, tree-hugging liberal. Besides Krypton was a civilization suffering from social decay. It was a doomed/dying planet.
Some of them absolutely did. Jor-El, Zod, Lara... it's a slightly commentary on how blissfully ignorant and arrogant some wish to remain in the face of destroying their own world, in my eyes.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Jor-El explaining it in comic format was equally hilarious.
I do wonder if they're going to stay away from Luthor Corp since Luthor would be able to find out who Supes is faster than Lois Lane and so forth. And has been overused in the movies.
They could use the black hole / phantom zone as a bridge to Bizarro (surely there had to be a reason why these other Kryptons were on the ship and not used in the plot at all?
), which is pretty much the only sensible equal to Superman with Zod gone. Other enemies depend on Krypton and such. And Darkseid is just too much and too dull. (and Doomsday too wierd).That said, the codex part pretty much laid the ground for Brainiac to try what Zod failed to do or something along those lines. Blah. Just so long as they ditch the name anyway.
I would say the ending is bold. A meditation on the human spirit.
For your consideration.
I lol'd.
Can Crusher
Banned
It just went too far in my opinion, and robbed of any conflict Superman might've had between saving Earth or his species. It just made the Kryptonian species highly contradictory.
A much more internal conflict would've been placed on Superman had they made it so that Krypton was on a timeclock by the time their broken army had invaded Earth out of desperation.
Then Superman would actually have to decide whether to save Earth, or save Krypton's civilization. Instead they made it an easy, 2 minute decision where Superman had to decide between villains and innocents. This black and white shit is one of the things I hated about the movie.
- Enough to destroy another, as if Zod had a hard time deciding that. Yes, I understood his motivations too. A 5 year old could understand Zod, since he's cardboard material.
- They were horny... ok
- Yes that was super weird. Because we knew nothing about his relationship with his mom beforehand. "The world is too big mom", I mean really.... what is the kid a goddamn poet?
- They found the world engine and placed it on the tripod.
And I know this is nitpicking, so I just want to say this didn't really bother me it was just funny but... what was up with Jor El's "memory" hand gestures to open doors?
Felt like Crowe was trolling everybody. He had a new one for each door.
Dull as fuck?!
At least it doesnt have a shitty blue filter that mutes all the colors.
Oh and lens flare and lots of excessively bright backdrop lighting. You gotta have those these days.
Superman Returns is the best looking Superman movie yes. Snyder fucked up Man of Steel's look by going with the trendy "bleak/filter" crap that makes no fucking sense in this case.
edit:
Now THIS is fucking dull cinematography
The JJ script is nuts, but it is right at home with what we saw with MoS. Heck, the opening alone is as indulging as the fights from MoS were.
Honestly I'm sick of seeing those idyllic shots of the Kent farm. They're played out already. I prefer the grounded look of Man of Steel. And I didn't like the art direction behind the Planet. It felt like a set, not a major newspaper in a real city like Donner's Superman or the Daily Bugle in the Spider-Man movies for that matter. Actually it looks like Sydney lol
Buildings like that exist in real life you know
Im sick of everything Donner's Superman by now, I wills tick to comic books and MoS from now on.
Reading Secret Identity as we speak.
Can Crusher
Banned
Personally, even though I think Snyder's biggest failings in this movie are recurrent from his career's previous efforts... I gotta say the movie didn't even get to shine when it comes to visuals.
The aesthetic was unappealing, with an oppressive color palette. There were no moments of awe and beauty. Something that Returns does have... even though I don't like that movie either.
Hell I personally believe that for the movie they were trying to make, they should've just gone with Michael Bay.
The aesthetic was unappealing, with an oppressive color palette. There were no moments of awe and beauty. Something that Returns does have... even though I don't like that movie either.
Hell I personally believe that for the movie they were trying to make, they should've just gone with Michael Bay.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Anton Sugar
Member
Actually, yes its blue tinted. Notice how even the warmest of colors feel cold.
Thats what happens when you crank up the blues and greens
I hated that crap in Battlestar Galactica. That huge movies still use this eyesore camera gimmick absolutely baffles me.
Spectral Glider
Member
That is what I didn't like. He does what he does because, "He was born that way." So, in essence, he's nothing more than a robot. I suppose maybe that's the point they wanted in the film, but that kind of throws any real motivations for the character out the window. Zod from part II, we don't get to know a whole lot about because Lester got brought on board and then the camp factor was upped considerably and the back story of what happened between Zod and the council or Zod and Jor-El wasn't told. But at least they worked in revenge as his motivation, and while it's as old as the hills, it's still motivation. It's a human trait and therefore is more relatable than, "I was programmed to do this."
Maninthemirror
Banned
I believe the polar opposite is true
Saw the movie ?
Zods purpose was to defend krypton and its way of life, he took it so seriously he was willing to terraform earth kill all humans to achieve it. When the ships died and he could no longer do it he wanted to take revenge by killing all humans and killing superman in the process because he said its supermans love for humanity which resulted in the destruction of the ships and his crew and subsequently another Krypton
I really don't get what you need here from Zod.
Far from your ordinary villain who is only seeking total world/universal power, Zod is shown to have a purpose and reason. What else could they have done to show his motives?
Honestly I don't get your complaints regarding this. And not only do we need to know something more or deeper about Zod but also his subordinates?
I went with my wife. She knew nothing about Superman, his story, or his comics. She got it. She understood it and felt the scenes were effective. I don't get how you can make that statement. Its a legit complaint, and something you felt didn't work but its not something that non Superman fans couldn't follow or understand.
In my long ass review in the spoiler thread (btw is this now a spoiler thread?) I pointed at the problems I had with the movie. I do feel like the transition from Clark/Superman origins to main plot of the movie jarring. Something is missing there. But whereas you think it sinks the movie , the 2nd half of the movie makes up for it for me.
As opposed to what? Seems to me like you didn't like the movie and now are just disliking very acceptable things like Zod's motives, the invasion, and the general plot under some category which this movie doesn't fit into.
Spectral Glider
Member
Yeah? And? That changes not one thing about what I said.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I don't get this. Donner Zod had conquest, then revenge and more conquest, as motivation. Snyder Zod had the protection and continuance of his people as motivation. And you find the Donner version more fleshed out? Really? Donner Zod, while fun, is about as carboard a villain as you can get, and only has Terrance Stamp's awesome swagger to carry it (which he does admirably).
Maninthemirror
Banned
Because if he was like a robot he wouldnt think of revenge, he did have free will but like Gattaca showed some people can be created to live a purpose, of course when the purpose is finished, a robot will not seek revenge he will get confused and get destroyed or shut down. Revenge is not a robot emotional response it is a response of someone who can be willed into something else.
Donners zod had the same purpose as snyders except donners zod wanted revenge on jor el while snyders wanted to protect krypton way of life
Can Crusher
Banned
You know, I just can't honestly understand how giving the main villain a simple motive that as far as his character's depiction and development during the movie don't alter anything in comparison to "I just want power" villains.
I mean the only thing it changes is the premise that moves the villain. It becomes something you have to be reminded off, it's not something that served as a basis to develop the character. All it did was justify why Zod is loud and wants us dead.
I don't see what's so hard to grasp, it's an easy thing to understand. Zod is a throwaway villain who's only purpose in this movie was to present a physical challenge to Superman. It could've been a robot programmed to kill Superman, it could've been a raging monster, nothing would've been different in practice.
That's my problem. And I can respect your wife thinking it was all effective and well done, but honestly it doesn't really speak to me because I can find 3 people I know who thought ASM was awesome. The thing is, is this a character that stays with you after you leave the cinema?
I get the feeling that yeah, it all worked for the 2 hours you were in the movie and nothing was too dumb for school, but it's fast food. They feed you a bunch of ideas, jumble them, rush it, and then take their time with the action bits.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
You know, SR had moments of genuine humor and I appreciated the pacing way more than in MoS. In fact I think I've come to like SR a bit more over time, though it's still not a very good movie. I feel my opinion on MoS will down down similar to TDKR, it might get worse with every rewatch.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Zods purpose as a character was a ultra
Patriotic man of krypton while his purpose in the movie was to give superman a chance to show he humanities protector, the movie only sought to establish supermans status among earth and Zod was a catalyst.
There was also a very obviously personal dimension to Zod's character in MoS because of his relationship/rivalry with Jor-El. Just that alone goes beyond Zod wanting revenge.
You are still not answering what you would have wanted from Zod, or how he compared to the supposed other great representations of comic book villains, fell flat.
Tell me exactly what you would have preferred Zod to be or to do instead of what we got.
I am not a Superman expert so I may be wrong here but the whole Krypton plot, the destruction of the planet, and no one believing Jor El is straight from the source material.
"Why do you say this to me, when you know I will kill you for it?!?"
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Can Crusher
Banned
Exactly, Zod was a stepping stone. That's bad, since he was the main villain of the movie, who could've brought some conflict into Superman. Other than physical.
I wanted Zod to be more self aware, to show an ounce of conflict. I wished he could've brought some philosophical conflict to Superman. At the end of the day I wanted that ending to mean something, and it didn't.
That yell at the end could've meant so much more. Superman's inability to bring both species together, his eternal conflict at killing a man he understood to not be all evil. Instead... man he yelled because he killed. Well fuck him, and fuck his bitch ass because he and his buddy just brought half metropolis down man. It was ridiculous
Well the movie takes liberties, so why not take ones that will elevate the character?
I just consider the character of Superman a symbol, and his humanity is what offsets his godlike powers. So in my mind, when you are telling a Superman story at this scale, you want to really presents scenarios and opposing forces that allow him to show that.
I mean the church scene? Come on man. hugh
This is EXACTLY what's happening to me lol
I never really hated the movie though. But I did one very stupid thing back then. I kinda went with the crowd on hating this flick because idunno, I was young and new to the internet-geek thing and kinda took shit most people said for granted.
There are things I didnt like. The real-estate plot is not a good one and Lex Luthor is just a shit villain all around. But the movie was fine and looked great.
I though Bosworth was fine, and I have no issues with super son either. I dont really read comics so this "travesty" Singer commited with the SM mythos was completely lost on me.
I think I'm gonna go search for a good deal on the bluray
That's a weird issue to take with the movie. It helped illustrate how genuinely lost he was, but seeing him unable to find conventional wisdom through the church but forging new territory with the minister on their mutual understandings of their roles in the world was still pretty strong.
I wish it was a little less nail-on-the-head, though.
Spectral Glider
Member
Where did I say I found the Donner/Lester version fleshed out? In fact, I stated that they never got into his back story. All I said was that new Zod is, for all intents and purposes, a robot.