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[Shamrock7r]

Dur hur all Joker wants to do is watch the world burn what a 1 dimensional boring villain...


You can break down simplify the motives of any movie villain to make them seem shallow. Doesn't make it correct.

 

[.GqueB.]

I reference little things and you simply try to discredit them with LMAO which is incredibly mature on you.
Joker had more screen time, we got to learn more about him. He changes throughout the movie. He actually has a relationship with Batman that is developed along the movie, AND changes. He's not a simple stupid empty character like Zod.

Not only was Joker a much better written character, he was 10 times more compelling. Or don't you understand that?
Because if you don't understand how Joker makes Zod look like a 5 year old wrote him, then I got nothing else to say man.

Of course he was a better written character but pretending he had this amazing fleshed out characterization is bizarre to me. He simply didn't. He was the same from beginning to end. I never saw any change in him. What was so compelling about him was the fact that he was so incorruptible.

And you made some random mention about how we never got an idea of what the side characters meant to Zod. Well who's this guy:

Who is that "goon" behind him? I brought up joker as an example of having a villain that isn't heavy on backstory while still remaining extremely compelling. He changed? How? When?

 

[G-Fex]

Dur hur all Joker wants to do is watch the world burn what a 1 dimensional boring villain...


You can break down simplify the motives of any movie villain to make them seem shallow. Doesn't make it correct.

Evil Ninja Man

Crazy clown man.


Terrorist mask man

Of course he was a better written character but pretending he had this amazing fleshed out characterization is bizarre to me. He simply didn't. He was the same from beginning to end. I never saw any change in him. What was so compelling about him was the fact that he was so incorruptible.

And you made some random mention about how we never got an idea of what the side characters meant to Zod. Well who's this guy:



Who is that "goon" behind him? I brought up joker as an example of having a villain that isn't heavy on backstory while still remaining extremely compelling. He changed? How? When?

This LOL. He was always the same. It's not like he had a change of heart.

 

[Can Crusher]

Loki just wanted to rule the world for no reason. Just to rule. Probably cause he's mad at daddy Odin and brother.

Ras just wants to destroy gotham cause he doesn't like it. Pressing the reset button.

Magneto just wants to wipe out the human race and leave only mutants.

It's funny because you are basically wrong on all accounts, but what bothers me is that you completely missed the point. And to think you believe Zod to be in the category as those.... man, that's just weird.

Of course he was a better written character but pretending he had this amazing fleshed out characterization is bizarre to me. He simply didn't. He was the same from beginning to end. I never saw any change in him. What was so compelling about him was the fact that he was so incorruptible.

And you made some random mention about how we never got an idea of what the side characters meant to Zod. Well who's this guy:

Who is that "goon" behind him? I brought up joker as an example of having a villain that isn't heavy on backstory while still remaining extremely compelling. He changed? How? When?

His relationship with Batman changes completely. First he wants him dead, then he cannot live without him. You didn't notice that? Why should I bother explaining the rest...

And really, you pulled the goon card on me? Faroa is a goon now that doesn't speak or have any sort of interaction with Superman? Who you crapping playboy, this shit you're pulling makes no sense man. How about Joker interacting with the mob characters, their relationships changing through the course of the movie, how about that?

Goddamn man, if you wanna bring up points then bring up points. And "Everything is the same" material is just.... not even worth entertaining anymore.

 

[G-Fex]

It's funny because you are basically wrong on all accounts, but what bothers me is that you completely missed the point. And to think you believe Zod to be in the category as those.... man, that's just weird.

No Can Crusher you're weird.

Now I can stay here trolling you over characteristics or you can explain to me what makes those characters so deep.


I swear sounds like I'm arguing with some anime manga fan

 

[Shamrock7r]

It's funny because you are basically wrong on all accounts, but what bothers me is that you completely missed the point. And to think you believe Zod to be in the category as those.... man, that's just weird.

That's the point. He simplified their motives. Same thing you are doing with Zod.

 

[.GqueB.]

That's the point. He simplified their motives. Same thing you are doing with Zod.

I like this. Clean, concise.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Loki just wanted to rule the world for no reason. Just to rule. Probably cause he's mad at daddy Odin and brother.

Ras just wants to destroy gotham cause he doesn't like it. Pressing the reset button.

Magneto just wants to wipe out the human race and leave only mutants.

C'mon, son. Are you even trying? Ras, Magneto, and Loki all blow Zod out of the water, on the fact alone that they had more screentime to explore their motives.

Can Crusher is "reducing" Zod's motives, because that's exactly what the screenplay does/did.

 

[Raptor]

Comic book movies? Loki, Ras Al Ghul, Magneto... just from the top of my head.



Don't be like that. I mostly agreed with your review for example, not my problem you don't agree with your own review of the movie.

Sorry man, don't trying to be disrespectfull here.

 

[Can Crusher]

That's the point. He simplified their motives. Same thing you are doing with Zod.

I didn't simplify Zod's motives. That's literally all the movie gave to me, I'm not hating on Zod because somehow I want to hate him. Or are you saying that Zod was a well developed vilIain?

I like this. Clean, concise.

Although apparently he managed to put in a few words what you couldn't with fifty, I would say the point still doesn't stand. I'm not simplifying the character, the movie did that for me. I didn't bring Joker, you brought it up. And not only you haven't managed to explain why I'm simplifying, you also haven't managed to explain how Zod is in the same category as the Joker. So when you are ready to make a point, then make it.

I swear sounds like I'm arguing with some anime manga fan

Call me crazy, but that's how feel right now. Difference is I don't give a shit about anime.

 

[G-Fex]

I didn't simplify Zod's motives. That's literally all the movie gave to me, I'm not hating on Zod because somehow I want to hate him. Or are you saying that Zod was a well developed vilIain?



Call me crazy, but that's how feel right now. Difference is I don't give a shit about anime.

Cool that's something we have in common

we should be friends.

 

[Maninthemirror]

In the end its a God damn comic book movie, its not reality , just enjoy the fantasy for a fantasy and action for action. If i need story id wait for an hbo version of superman

 

[Raptor]

In the end its a God damn comic book movie, its not reality , just enjoy the fantasy for a fantasy and action for action. If i need story id wait for an hbo version of superman

We need some deep shit going on man.

 

[Can Crusher]

We need some deep shit going on man.

Fast Five proves otherwise but I understand where you guys are going. If yall got what you wanted from the movie, then more power for you. It's still a bad movie though.

 

[Raptor]

Fast Five proves otherwise but I understand where you guys are going. If yall got what you wanted from the movie, then more power for you.

I personally got what I been wanting since probably 25 years now, I can't be more happy.

Now I want a sequel that throws more shit at me from all directions.

BUT!!!

I do want some more precise editing and a better pacing.

 

[.GqueB.]

Although apparently he managed to put in a few words what you couldn't with fifty, I would say the point still doesn't stand. I'm not simplifying the character, the movie did that for me. I didn't bring Joker, you brought it up. And not only you haven't managed to explain why I'm simplifying, you also haven't managed to explain how Zod is in the same category as the Joker. So when you are ready to make a point, then make it.

I know... that's why I said I liked it.

His relationship with Batman changes completely. First he wants him dead, then he cannot live without him. You didn't notice that? Why should I bother explaining the rest...

And really, you pulled the goon card on me? Faroa is a goon now that doesn't speak or have any sort of interaction with Superman? Who you crapping playboy, this shit you're pulling makes no sense man. How about Joker interacting with the mob characters, their relationships changing through the course of the movie, how about that?

Goddamn man, if you wanna bring up points then bring up points. And "Everything is the same" material is just.... not even worth entertaining anymore.

Lol, no he didn't. The fact that you are even saying that means you're not ready:

"But at the mob meeting he said..."

But to THAT I say, explain why he changed his mind. When? What event? He never wanted the Batman dead. That was all just part of the plan. He couldn't go to the mob and say "I kind of just wanna screw around with Batman, give me half of your money". You don't even understand the character you (rightfully, mind you) speak so highly of.

His relationship with the mob never changed. He was always just using them.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I didn't simplify Zod's motives. That's literally all the movie gave to me, I'm not hating on Zod because somehow I want to hate him. Or are you saying that Zod was a well developed vilIain?

I thought Zod was a well enough developed villain. If you look at the first movie for a lot of superhero franchises, very few have a well developed antagonist, because they are used more as a vehicle to firmly establish the growth of the main character from where they started to the hero they will become.

I thought Zod, as the villain for an origin story, did his part in establishing Superman's growth to protector of the Human race. While Zod's overall goal of doing what's best for his race remains the same until the climax, the details in how he goes about accomplishing that changes throughout the course of the movie.

 

[Can Crusher]

etc etc etc
His relationship with the mob never changed. He was always just using them.

Right but... you only knew that... after it all happened... get it? And even then that's the conclusion you're drawing, that Joker is a liar and so he is a planner, and he did plan it all.

It's not like you knew what he was going to do. Jesus man... You're spinning so hard I'm getting dizzy.

I thought Zod was a well enough developed villain. If you look at the first movie for a lot of superhero franchises, very few have a well developed antagonist, because they are used more as a vehicle to firmly establish the growth of the main character from where they started to the hero they will become.

I thought Zod, as the villain for an origin story, did his part in establishing Superman's growth to protector of the Human race. While Zod's overall goal of doing what's best for his race remains the same until the climax, the details in how he goes about accomplishing that changes throughout the course of the movie.

Had the movie been more successful with Superman's character development(Iron Man), and had the movie been more fun (like a Fast Five) then sure... But it wasn't. Because it seemed like every character including Superman was half baked, the plot was by the numbers, the villain sucked, and there was no sense of fun in the movie. Even the action was just shit blowing up, it wasn't exciting. There was no "fuck yeah" moment. Hell even Superman vs Zod was... I didn't feel the tension, which is why the outcome was felt so flat.

But hey you know what, I'm sort of glad Man of Bomba is making some cash and a sequel is going to happen and hopefully it's going be much better.

 

[Blader]

I know... that's why I said I liked it.



Lol, no he didn't. The fact that you are even saying that means you're not ready:

"But at the mob meeting he said..."

But to THAT I say, explain why he changed his mind. When? What event? He never wanted the Batman dead. That was all just part of the plan. He couldn't go to the mob and say "I kind of just wanna screw around with Batman, give me half of your money". You don't even understand the character you (rightfully, mind you) speak so highly of.

His relationship with the mob never changed. He was always just using them.

Why would he be using them then? By that point, he was all about just making money, and killing Batman - while causing chaos along the way - was a means to an end. It was only ever after all his failed attempts to kill him that Joker realized how much fun he was having, and so changed his mind. He says as much during the interrogation scene.

His M.O. only changed just fucking around with Batman *after* he realized how much more fun that was. It wasn't his goal from the beginning, how could it be?

 

[Raptor]

So now we are discussing Joker character in a Superman thread.

:/

 

[.GqueB.]

Right but... you only knew that... after it all happened... get it? And even then that's the conclusion you're drawing, that Joker is a liar and so he is a planner, and he did plan it all.

It's not like you knew what he was going to do. Jesus man...

That all makes him compelling to watch not some deep well thought out character which was my original point. That a character can be compelling without fully knowing their motives and backstory. That I can still get behind (or again) root for that villain even without some deep tie-in to the hero or the story in general. All of that stuff isn't necessary. Sometimes it isn't needed.

 

[Shamrock7r]

This is how I saw Zod's character develop

- Upset with the council's direction that has led to the coming destruction of Krypton, Zod attempts a coup to overthrow the Kryptonian council, put himself in charge, and select specific bloodlines to rebuild and continue Kryptonian society.
- After being released from the phantom zone, Zod goes to various Kryptonian settlements to look for survivors/signs of life, perhaps a suitable living environment.
- After Kal-El accidentally sends a signal to Zod's ship, Zod travels to Earth, confronts Kal, explains to him his intention to remake Earth into a new Krypton, while exterminating the lesser species on the planet, the humans.
-After world builder, the Kryptonian ship, and the rest of the Kryptonians are killed/destroyed/moved to the phantom zone, Zod, losing his sense of purpose, goes insane and decides his one goal in life is to kill the human race because of his hatred for Kal-El for essentially ending the Kryptonian bloodline. This is really the only time his motives turn to revenge.


I mean, I think at the very least that's very serviceable and a lot better than the majority of villains in comic book movies.

 

[Can Crusher]

That all makes him compelling to watch not some deep well thought out character which was my original point. That a character can be compelling without fully knowing their motives and backstory. That I can still get behind (or again) root for that villain even without some deep tie in to the hero or the story in general. All of that stuff isn't necessary. Sometimes it isn't needed.

I give up man. Eat your cake.

But I just hope for a sequel that recognizes how bad the first one was and delivers accordingly.

 

[Raptor]

I give up man. Eat your cake.

But I just hope for a sequel that recognizes how bad the first one was and delivers accordingly.

How can a movie recognizes its previous movie was bad?

If anythign we will get an awesome sequel that's it, not on par I don't want that, I want a better one.

 

[Anton Sugar]

This is how I saw Zod's character develop

- Upset with the council's direction that has led to the coming destruction of Krypton, Zod attempts a coup to overthrow the Kryptonian council, put himself in charge, and select specific bloodlines to rebuild and continue Kryptonian society.
- After being released from the phantom zone, Zod goes to various Kryptonian settlements to look for survivors/signs of life, perhaps a suitable living environment.
- After Kal-El accidentally sends a signal to Zod's ship, Zod travels to Earth, confronts Kal, explains to him his intention to remake Earth into a new Krypton, while exterminating the lesser species on the planet, the humans.
-After world builder, the Kryptonian ship, and the rest of the Kryptonians are killed/destroyed/moved to the phantom zone, Zod, losing his sense of purpose, goes insane and decides his one goal in life is to kill the human race because of his hatred for Kal-El for essentially ending the Kryptonian bloodline. This is really the only time his motives turn to revenge.


I mean, I think at the very least that's very serviceable and a lot better than the majority of villains in comic book movies.

Technically, most of that isn't development--they're plot points. His motives stay largely the same throughout the movie (again, not a bad thing) and we do get some more insight into his character. However, it's mainly through single lines of dialogue, and not much actual exploration.

I keep thinking of things they could have cut to spend more time on Zod and Superman's development, but it was a tightly packed movie. I have to think that, fun though it may have been, a lot of the Krypton stuff could have been shortened. Need a rewatch!

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

How is MoS a "by-the-numbers" plot? It's one of the better plots in super-hero movies!

 

[Can Crusher]

How can a movie recognizes its previous movie was bad?

If anythign we will get an awesome sequel that's it, not on par I don't want that, I want a better one.

The creative talent involved can easily look back and see the mistakes, and make everything better.

Hey they have that chance and I think WB wants that.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Technically, most of that isn't development--they're plot points. His motives stay largely the same throughout the movie (again, not a bad thing) and we do get some more insight into his character. However, it's mainly through single lines of dialogue, and not much actual exploration.

I keep thinking of things they could have cut to spend more time on Zod and Superman's development, but it was a tightly packed movie. I have to think that, fun though it may have been, a lot of the Krypton stuff could have been shortened. Need a rewatch!

I agree. As I said in a previous post, his overall goal remains the same until the final fight, but I don't feel it's done a 1 dimensional manner throughout the film, if that makes sense.

 

[davidpdong]

Just to chime in on Loki in Thor. His complexity arises from the his inferiority complex to his brother. He wants to rule because when that would prove himself as the worthy son, not Thor. He even goes so far as to betray his biological father to this end.

That and alot of complex acting from Tom is what strengthens Loki.

A REALLY good villain manages to competently challenge the heroes philosophy and worldview. Which I don't think Zod did but the Joker does.

 

[Raptor]

The creative talent involved can easily look back and see the mistakes, and make everything better.

Hey they have that chance and I think WB wants that.

Yeah, better pacing and editing ahhahahah I feel like a broken record now.

But is true it could have been a true masterpiece!

 

[G-Fex]

Can Crusher

I just want you to like the movie.

=(

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Zod's no Loki or Joker, but he's well above the comic book movie average.

Lizard
Sandman
Venom
Doctor Octopus
Green Goblin
Doctor Doom
Hector Hammond
Red Skull
Iron Monger
Whiplash
Justin Hammer
Luthor (Spacey version)
Kingpin
Abomination
Absorbing Dad
Striker
Any of the Brotherhood of Mutants that aren't Magneto
Sebastian Shaw
Bane
Talia

Did I miss any? Zod's better than all of those.

Above Zod?

Joker
Magneto
Loki
maaaaaaaaybe Ras Al Ghul. (Charming, and a good actor, but not much of a character)
Maybe Two-Face. He wasn't a villain for long enough to really rank

So yeah, comparing him to the very-best depicted villains in comic book movies, in a movie where he isn't as central as the villains listed above, and he doesn't rate. But the movie isn't about him, and he still manages to be better than 80% of the comic book villains in film.

 

[Raptor]

I enjoyed Doc Oc more than Loki and Fassbender Magneto.

 

[MYE]

I enjoyed Doc Oc more than Loki and Fassbender Magneto.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Yeah bro, what the hell is Doc Oc doing on the wrong list?

 

[Messypandas]

LISSTTEEENNN TOOO MEEE NOOOOOWWW

I WILL NOT DIE A MONSTER

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

Doc Ock is so much better than Zod.

And Loki sucks. Putting him among the best? lol

 

[Messypandas]

Does he even kill, brah?

 

[Can Crusher]

Zod is about as good as Doctor Doom. And even then....

 

[Router]

FINALLY. Today is the day. Its out in Australia and soon I can stop avoiding these threads.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

Yeah bro, what the hell is Doc Oc doing on the wrong list?

Oc is top tier and possibly the only super hero villain who I have actually felt sympathetic for. What I would do for one more Raimi Spider-Man film. Sigh.

 

[JB1981]

LISSTTEEENNN TOOO MEEE NOOOOOWWW

I WILL NOT DIE A MONSTER

Haha

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

Yeah bro, what the hell is Doc Oc doing on the wrong list?

Loki is in the wrong list too.

 

[Raptor]

Zod is about as good as Doctor Doom. And even then....

You are trolling now man.

 

[KalBalboa]

I think we can agree that Zod is in the top tier of comic book film villains. Most are cruddy plot devices.

 

[Can Crusher]

You are trolling now man.

Redskull then? Come on meet me halfway brother.

I think we can agree that Zod is in the top tier of comic book film villains. Most are cruddy plot devices.

We absolutely cannot agree on that.

 

[Matrix]

I enjoyed Doc Oc more than Loki and Fassbender Magneto.

THE POWER OF THE SUN IN PALM OF MY HAND!

 

[Messypandas]

Loki in Thor was actually fantastic. Very raw and strong performance by Tom in certain scenes, then in Avengers he became a kind of 80's cliche. It was fun, but severely limited and he was only really there to the brunt of the joke. I have no doubt in Thor 2 the character is going to be like a deviantart monstrosity come to life due to the insane fan girl following.

 

[Matrix]

Redskull then? Come on meet me halfway brother.



We absolutely cannot agree on that.

Comparing him to fucking Doctor Doom. You take things to absurd levels of bs.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Man, watching the teaser again is damn amazing. I just love the silence of music while Superman is sonic-booming into the sky.

Cannot wait for the Blu Ray.