Not even close. I can give you "hollowness" (even though I disagree) but the MoS script is tidy as hell compared to the schizophrenic jumble that the TDKR script was. I liked MoS much more than TDKR.
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Man of Steel |OT| It's about action.
- Thread starter MisterHero
- Start date
Not even close. I can give you "hollowness" (even though I disagree) but the MoS script is tidy as hell compared to the schizophrenic jumble that the TDKR script was. I liked MoS much more than TDKR.
Anton Sugar
Member
TDKR>MoS for me. I agree with Sculli--it has a lot of the same problems. They feel worse in MoS, though. Maybe because it's a trilogy and Wayne/Batman feels tenfold more developed than Clark/Superman. Maybe it's because Nolan is just better than Snyder.
The last thing I would call the MoS script is "tidy."
This "heart" nonsense again. What does it even mean besides "I like these characters more"?
It has been since release. We just simply moved past our denial phase.
Don't worry. It's not. GAF is the same place where people will try to convince you that Doc Ock was a more memorable villain than Bane.
brandonh83
Banned
I think the Man of Steel theme is okay, but my problem with Zimmer's themes for Batman and now Superman is that they don't really take off. It feels like they're building toward a theme but never quite climax into something memorable.
like the Amazing Spider-man theme
Messypandas
Member
TDKR just didn't live up to the high bar they set, it doesn't make it a bad movie.
Anton Sugar
Member
Well, I think in that specific comparison, MoS is handicapped. MoS's "motif" is much weaker (IMO, nonexistent) than BB's "fear" thang.
Kal-El also never met his father prior to his death, and Jor-El's death is just a plot point.
In BB, Thomas Wayne's death ties together everything much more neatly:
-It directly contributes to Bruce's fear and understanding of fear, and thus:
-It creates Batman
-We have, at the very least, seen Bruce and Thomas together
Thomas, and his death, contribute more to Batman Begins and Bruce's arc than
Jor-El's death does to MoS
I mean, really, compare:
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Jor-El being stabbed dead after successfully sending his infant son away
That all makes sense, and I agree completely.
I just chafe at the use of the term "heart". I think someone in another one of the Man of Steel threads said that so many scenes in Superman Returns had more "heart" than those of Man of Steel. Like Clark jumping through fields. The term "heart" in discussing movies just has no meaning to me. It's as useless as Ma-Ti's ring.
How is it sloppy?
please don't compare them. the ASM theme is awful
brandonh83
Banned
OH OKAY
Anton Sugar
Member
In general, it's frustrating to argue/debate with people who can't articulate their points--"heart" is definitely up there.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I think a more appropriate word than "heart" would be "emotion". MoS didn't have a very emotional script, and that plus the cold feel of the movie due to subdued colors and filters, and the lack of any real humor of any kind until the very end, really added up to a movie that doesn't garner much of an emotional reaction from the audience at all. That's my biggest problem with MoS, it just felt empty and didn't connect with me.
TDKR, for all of it's problems, at least it had more emotionally effective scenes throughout it. By the end when Bane is walking up the steps to Batman, you feel a surge of emotion in that scene. One, because they've built up to it with other emotional scenes, and two because they take the time to let the scene develop itself. They give the audience the time to soak it in before it happens. MoS lacked both of those aspects, and by the time you get to the last fight between Kal and Zod it just felt like it was rushed or pushed onto us and thusly it didn't have any real "weight", or emotion, to the scene.
It's about building characters and connecting with the audience, and MoS failed somewhat, even though it tried in a lacklusterly fashion.
All IMHO of course. Many GAF'ers seem to have connected better with MoS than I did. But for me, it didn't. In that regard, for all of Returns issues and failures, at least I connected with parts of the film.
Heart..as in capacity for sympathy; feeling; affection: "His heart moved him to help the needy."
Might not be articulated properly, but you know what he means.
It's not like I didn't like the movie. I thought it was cool as heck.
But who gave you more feels?
Henry Cavill or Christopher Reeve?
Might not be articulated properly, but you know what he means.
It's not like I didn't like the movie. I thought it was cool as heck.
But who gave you more feels?
Henry Cavill or Christopher Reeve?
It's got pacing problems (like the TDKR, yes). It's got a lot of info dump. The Codex is a macguffin for the sake of having one. It's never clear what Clark is supposed to do with it. If anything other than just let it exist inside him. Maybe this is something they'll touch on in the sequel. Lois Lane exists so expository dialogue can be dumped on her for the audience. Lois/Clark relationship is incredibly forced (they get together because Lois and Clark are supposed to get together!). As mentioned above, MoS doesn't do near as good at father figures leading their sons to being heroes. Goyer is clearly trying to recycle that. The Daily Planet cast is throw away. So yeah it's a little sloppy. I didn't say there weren't DEFINITE problems with TDKR script. I can agree with that, but Man of Steel is just as "schizophrenic."
Edit: This is all off the top of my head. I am sure I'll think of something else. Maybe even come to terms with some of the above. But I just wanted to clarify why I think it's not tidy.
Anton Sugar
Member
On MoS vs TDKR, like I said, I do think they share a lot of the same flaws, chief among them being scripts/stories that feel too crowded.
However, in TDKR's case, it's easy for me to say "they should have cut out a lot of the cop nonsense and maybe Talia altogether". Bane was a great character who brought real energy and excitement everytime he's on-screen, but there's not enough of him.
With MoS, I have trouble saying exactly what should be cut. I don't think such a detailed look at Krypton was necessary, although it set up the story, and the church scene could deeeeefinitely be cut. Beyond that, I'm not sure--maybe some of the Daily Planet stuff, since most of that was inconsequential, anyway.
However, in TDKR's case, it's easy for me to say "they should have cut out a lot of the cop nonsense and maybe Talia altogether". Bane was a great character who brought real energy and excitement everytime he's on-screen, but there's not enough of him.
With MoS, I have trouble saying exactly what should be cut. I don't think such a detailed look at Krypton was necessary, although it set up the story, and the church scene could deeeeefinitely be cut. Beyond that, I'm not sure--maybe some of the Daily Planet stuff, since most of that was inconsequential, anyway.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
There's no consensus. Some of us like it quite a bit, and some people hate it. The hate tends to be really amped up.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The chief difference between TDRK and MoS to me is that MoS made more sense the second time, while TDKR makes less sense with each viewing. There's no logical sequance of actions and consequences in TDKR, it's very forced. Apart from the actual battle at the end of MoS, it doesn't have that fault.
Anton Sugar
Member
Hey now! We've had just as many love echo chambers as hate echo chambers. Some gaffers have called it "spectacular", "perfect", and "unlike anything they've ever seen".
It's much easier to talk about flaws, though. Talking about what a movie does right is more difficult for me, because if it is done really well, it's "invisible".
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I think a lot of us don't hate it, but we don't love it either. IMHO it's a mediocre super hero film that is bordering on being one of the best ever, but simply falls short in too many ways from a film standpoint. I still think a blu-ray directors cut ala what Snyder did to Watchmen could make this one of the best super hero movies of all time, but it doesn't sound like that's a possibility sadly.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Oh, I think the negative hyperbole is a lot stronger. How many people are calling it perfect? Who? While naysayers have been sticking around to lodge new complaints.
brandonh83
Banned
Maybe this is why I'm a more positive person than some... it's not hard for me at all to realize things that are done really well, and I would much rather spend my time championing things I like than talking down things I don't like.
Though, I like to do a bit of that too.
Seeing this tonight at either 7 or 9:15. Ready to see what Clark did on the bus.
Well, people who like something don't usually like to stick around to watch the naysayers constantly hating on it.
1.- Man of Steel
2.- Superman TAS
3.- Superman The Movie
4.- Superman 2
5.- Superman Returns
DOnner's original "may" be the better movie for some, it has aged horrible, Supemran flying looks like garbage, is very corny, and I don't get affected by nostalgia.
So MoS is the better movie right now for me.
2.- Superman TAS
3.- Superman The Movie
4.- Superman 2
5.- Superman Returns
DOnner's original "may" be the better movie for some, it has aged horrible, Supemran flying looks like garbage, is very corny, and I don't get affected by nostalgia.
So MoS is the better movie right now for me.
Well, people who like something don't usually like to stick around to watch the naysayers constantly hating on it.
It's not often I watch movies twice. If I go to the cinema and enjoy a film that's pretty much it. I don't give it a second spin to analyze why it might not be as good as I thought.
brandonh83
Banned
I saw Star Trek Into Darkness three times.
Mainly because I loved it, but also because I was in Florida at the time and could watch it in IMAX 3D which was awesome.
onimushroom
Member
The movie finally made it to the cinemas here.
I liked it, more than any other Superman film.
I liked it, more than any other Superman film.
Future Foundation
Member
Now that's a movie that felt "empty" to me. Thor had all the weight of a DVD extra. Hiddleston and Hemsworth saved that movie.
onimushroom
Member
Estonia.
brandonh83
Banned
Haha that's pretty priceless.
brandonh83
Banned
Henry, next time someone asks if you're a GOD you say YES
The scene of young Clark running out of his class evoked a stronger emotional response from me than anything in Superman Returns.
brandonh83
Banned
Returns had moments that I found beautiful, but not really emotional. As in, it's like, that's nice, that's heartfelt, but I didn't come anything close to being choked up or anything like that.
Honestly the best character in that movie was Cyclops.
He looks kind of like this guy!
Better than Soze? I don't knooowww.
I agree too, he was the most natural of all.
brandonh83
Banned
who the fuck is Soze
Liquidsnake
Banned
Well I did shed tears three times during this movie. So it evoked a lot of emotion from me.
Söze was once a petty drug dealer who began his criminal career in his native Turkey. The legendary persona of Keyser Söze is born when rival Hungarian smugglers invade his house while he is away, rape his wife and hold his children hostage; when Söze arrives, they kill one of the children to show him their resolve, then threaten to kill his wife and remaining children if he does not surrender his business to them. Rather than give in to their demands, and to prevent his family from having to live with the memory of what has happened, he "shows these men of will what will really is,"; he kills his own family and all but one of the Hungarians, knowing the survivor will tell the Mafia what has happened.
Söze waits until his family is buried and then goes after the mob, killing dozens of people including the mobsters's families, friends and even people who owe them money, as well as destroying their homes and businesses. He then goes "underground," never again doing business in person and remaining invisible even to his henchmen, who almost never know for whom they are working. "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Söze's ruthlessness is legendary; he is described as having had enemies and disloyal henchmen brutally murdered, along with everyone they hold dear, for the slightest infractions-and as having personally murdered people who have seen him and can identify him. Over the years his criminal empire, including the drug trade and the smuggling of weapons and materials, flourishes, as does his legend; he becomes, "a spook story that criminals tell their kids at night. 'Rat on your pop, and Keyser Söze will get you.'"
brandonh83
Banned
I don't need to go in tonight with that level of expectation
But that's awesome, it gives me a bit more hope.
Oh I thought we were talking about Superman Returns.
I think some kind of joke went straight over my head.