I actually liked Watchmen, warts and all, but I do think there are instances -- particularly the fight scenes -- where Snyder either was not understand what the comic was about, or deliberately sacrificing story for something flashy. I liked the fight choreography, but the whole point of the GN is that these are regular guys who shouldn't be able to snap limbs and toss bodies like they were nothing; it takes away from the deconstruction element of it, and also makes Ozy not all that special of a character if everyone else has super strength too.
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Man of Steel |OT| It's about action.
- Thread starter MisterHero
- Start date
I actually liked Watchmen, warts and all, but I do think there are instances -- particularly the fight scenes -- where Snyder either was not understand what the comic was about, or deliberately sacrificing story for something flashy. I liked the fight choreography, but the whole point of the GN is that these are regular guys who shouldn't be able to snap limbs and toss bodies like they were nothing; it takes away from the deconstruction element of it, and also makes Ozy not all that special of a character if everyone else has super strength too.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think you top it by boxing it in, honestly.
People will be more pulled into the action if/when Superman starts taking his surroundings into consideration. Then it's less "look at all the carnage I can create" and more "look how CREATIVELY I can contain all this creative carnage"
The best fight scenes in movies (Save for maybe They Live) aren't great because of the pure punishment - they're great because of how creatively they can contain that punishment.
People will be more pulled into the action if/when Superman starts taking his surroundings into consideration. Then it's less "look at all the carnage I can create" and more "look how CREATIVELY I can contain all this creative carnage"
The best fight scenes in movies (Save for maybe They Live) aren't great because of the pure punishment - they're great because of how creatively they can contain that punishment.
lazytonberry
Member
Cherry-picking the highest-rated superhero movies on RT has nothing to do with my comment or why I made it, thanks. It wasn't even about superhero movies or if critics enjoy them or not.
I know everyone is in love with Faora (and why the hell wouldn't you be) but did anyone else think Superman's mom was kind of hot? No matter what age in the movie aw yeah.
Good action is good action... doesn't matter if it comes from a video game, music video, movie, TV show, anime whatever.
To elaborate on the whole flashback cut sequences... you can easily tell that was a Nolan idea. That same non linear structure was used with BB (and in Prestige) but with more finesse in BB. Here while the individual scenes are excellent they are not given enough time to fully develop or for you to process the impact had on Clark's life because it cuts to the next scene abruptly. Plus even the current scenes sometimes felt out of order.. you could blame that on the rapid change of scenery when compared to BB. The whole Clark flashback life story was like a trailer highlight reel... there is no scene like the BB opera scene where the moment felt fully fleshed out from beginning to end. This is what people mean they talk about uneven pacing, compare this to the latter half of the movie which progresses like a standard movie and shit starts to escalate properly like an action movie.
I just hope for the sequel they do away with this style of story telling and character development... this is clearly not Snyder's strong suit.
To elaborate on the whole flashback cut sequences... you can easily tell that was a Nolan idea. That same non linear structure was used with BB (and in Prestige) but with more finesse in BB. Here while the individual scenes are excellent they are not given enough time to fully develop or for you to process the impact had on Clark's life because it cuts to the next scene abruptly. Plus even the current scenes sometimes felt out of order.. you could blame that on the rapid change of scenery when compared to BB. The whole Clark flashback life story was like a trailer highlight reel... there is no scene like the BB opera scene where the moment felt fully fleshed out from beginning to end. This is what people mean they talk about uneven pacing, compare this to the latter half of the movie which progresses like a standard movie and shit starts to escalate properly like an action movie.
I just hope for the sequel they do away with this style of story telling and character development... this is clearly not Snyder's strong suit.
Well whaddya know. It's that easy.
Oh man this is going to get ugly (BUT NECESSARY!)
I was really, really hoping that when
Fishburne and crew were running away from that collapsing building that Supes would show up and stop it from falling.
Cherry picking? Critics like good blockbusters, dislike bad ones. What a concept!
58% is a middling score, which is appropriate because Man of Steel is a middling movie. If you loved it, good for you, but don't be a tool about it just because a lot of others didn't.
It's like you want GAF to implode or something.
I don't think they will ever top the visceral nature of the action in Man of Steel, so for sequels I'll like to see a smarter approach. If he's fighting Luthor for example, it shouldn't be about raw power and force, but more elaborate sequences and traps. I dunno though, I can't really get excited when I realize that Goyer is still signed to write the next film. FML.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Damn, son. Only one of you sounds like a dick, to be honest.
Matrix
LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world hed rather have. The problem is, Dwyanes not a woman.
lol
Jeff Green's Son
Neo Member
Or a contract written up to bar him from any involvement ever.
I don't think they will ever top the visceral nature of the action in Man of Steel, so for sequels I'll like to see a smarter approach. If he's fighting Luthor for example, it shouldn't be about raw power and force, but more elaborate sequences and traps. I dunno though, I can't really get excited when I realize that Goyer is still signed to write the next film. FML.
Goyer, Lindelof, Orci, Kurtzman, valar morghulis.
No one's arguing about who's a dick :lol
I just hate this notion that if you don't like a movie with fighting and explosions in it, then you must just hate fun movies and there's just no other explanation. Like, what? That's ridiculous. Especially since you'd never make that argument if those same critics loved the movie.
Finished watching MAN OF STEEL. Damn the critics! This movie is EPIC from the word GO!! I was hyped hyped hyped!
I will say this though (no spoilers), this superman doesn't fly gracefully as Christopher reeves superman (in fact there was only one moment of graceful flying and we've all seen it in the 3rd trailer), the action needs to slow down here and there so we can appreciate what's going on, and the movie is lacking that... "substance" in respect to the story (more on the latter half of the movie as the first half was brilliantly done), and General Zod should have more menace and royalty to him, but other than that this movie is BADASS!!! Oh yes, Russell Crowe was awesome from every moment he appeared! All the cast did very well.
I want to watch it again when I get to Japan but damn, the movie won't come out in Japan until August!! What a pain.
Oh yes. To everyone who haven't seen it yet, DO NOT watch the movie in 3D. This movie was not made for 3D in mind (3D post) and it shows. Go watch the 2D version and be happy!
Final opinion, if Batman The Dark Knight is 94% then Superman is 90%. I want to watch it again.
I will say this though (no spoilers), this superman doesn't fly gracefully as Christopher reeves superman (in fact there was only one moment of graceful flying and we've all seen it in the 3rd trailer), the action needs to slow down here and there so we can appreciate what's going on, and the movie is lacking that... "substance" in respect to the story (more on the latter half of the movie as the first half was brilliantly done), and General Zod should have more menace and royalty to him, but other than that this movie is BADASS!!! Oh yes, Russell Crowe was awesome from every moment he appeared! All the cast did very well.
I want to watch it again when I get to Japan but damn, the movie won't come out in Japan until August!! What a pain.
Oh yes. To everyone who haven't seen it yet, DO NOT watch the movie in 3D. This movie was not made for 3D in mind (3D post) and it shows. Go watch the 2D version and be happy!
Final opinion, if Batman The Dark Knight is 94% then Superman is 90%. I want to watch it again.
Roland Gunner
Banned
Thats what gets me about the MoS reviews. The movie has serious flaws but was still enjoyable and bordering on good. TDKR was slightly better than that but get a massively higher score. It feels like the reviewers were willing to give TDKR and Iron Man 3 way more slack than MoS.
Wwhhyyyyy
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I don't think they will ever top the visceral nature of the action in Man of Steel, so for sequels I'll like to see a smarter approach. If he's fighting Luthor for example, it shouldn't be about raw power and force, but more elaborate sequences and traps. I dunno though, I can't really get excited when I realize that Goyer is still signed to write the next film. FML.
Yeah, like I said earlier having him either fly through or get thrown through buildings was a good trick for this movie and I liked it, but they need a new trick for the second one
lazytonberry
Member
Ok since you don't seem to understand what I was trying to say:
My point was in trying to highlight the discrepancy of what the critics have said about this film and what reality is showing us with this ongoing box office take where the film is showing to be incredibly successful with the general public.
What is the reason that a relatively poorly rated and reviewed film, even though it is a highly recognized property from a mixed-expectations team that includes the high profile Nolan, is doing so phenomenally?
Is it because we are all idiots and so easily entertained? Or is it because there may be some other factors, like, say, oh, I don't know, differences in terms of what critics do in rating movies and what we as audiences find enjoyable and actually worth our time and money?
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
FUCK the ciritcs. Fuck them all. I'm sorry but this movie is insanely good. I had high exxpectations but they've somehow all been exceeded. One of my favourite Superhero movies EVER. Certainly the best Superman movie. Better than any Marvel movie I've ever seen. Pretty much the only superhero movies that might be better are the Nolan Batman movies. Loved it. Dat action.
The cast was great. For once I actually liked a Lois Lane on film. I HATE Kidder and the one from Returns was just meh. Amy Adams is cool. Shannon killed it as Zod and daaaaaaamn at Faora. I have huge nostalgia for Terrance Stamp but honestly I loved Shannon's version. Intense. Cavill did a solid job as supes. Much better than Ralph. Ralph will not be missed.
So yeah, super impressed with this movie. It's almost enough to make be forget about the horror of Superman Returns and Ralph. Suck it Ralph.
The cast was great. For once I actually liked a Lois Lane on film. I HATE Kidder and the one from Returns was just meh. Amy Adams is cool. Shannon killed it as Zod and daaaaaaamn at Faora. I have huge nostalgia for Terrance Stamp but honestly I loved Shannon's version. Intense. Cavill did a solid job as supes. Much better than Ralph. Ralph will not be missed.
So yeah, super impressed with this movie. It's almost enough to make be forget about the horror of Superman Returns and Ralph. Suck it Ralph.
Roland Gunner
Banned
Seriously! If any movie ever cried out for a quality video game adaptation its this one.
My nigga
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Fair enough. I'm seeing it in a few hours myself. A few of my friends have given overwhelmingly positive feedback, and I'm almost certain to like it as our tastes usually align, but I agree with what you're saying. That attitude is generally a cop-out from larger discussion/dissection (though there are people who I know who will hate on "actiony" flicks no matter what too)
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The problem with using the argument that "critical opinions don't matter if the audience clearly loves it" is that it can be used to defend the Transformers movies :/
Kingdom Hearts 2 and Metal Gear Rising mostly!
Call Platinum Games, use Square Enix graphic artists!
Meus Renaissance
Member
I can't really get excited when I realize that Goyer is still signed to write the next film. FML.
That can't be true
Wouldn't that be a good thing?
Like I said, it wasn't that I didn't enjoy the action. I guess people are getting the wrong idea because I'm mostly negatively on the execution for the rest of the movie. I just felt the climax was a bit too over the top, I -still- enjoyed it, but it reminded me more of specific videogame set pieces than anything else in the film, and so it was less original compared to the rest of the action and more "trying every single thing which is cool".
Asura's Wrath...or was that game did too much?
No, your point was pretty clear the first time:
And the reason I linked to all those other movies is because it *clearly* disproves your idea that critics aren't intrinsically cynical and can't enjoy fun movies because they're above it, or some shit. If that were true, movies like Iron Man and Avengers wouldn't haven't as been critically acclaimed as they were.
As for the discrepancy between box office take and the reviews, there are plenty of shit movies that made a lot of money, so that's no argument.
lazytonberry
Member
It probably says a lot about me that I liked all three movies, and will continue to watch any future ones. I grew up with those transforming toys and cartoons, there's no way I could never not like them. And I don't really have an issue with Baysplosions... If it weren't for him doing it, there would be a void of over the top unnecessary action movies, and that just can't happen. We need all types to make the world go round.
Maybe I'm easily entertained but I'd much rather go through life enjoying more things than hating more things.
Screw the haters, this movie was boss and now I'm contemplating my third viewing of the weekend. We shall see.
I enjoy the Transformers movies too. I love giant robots and I can excuse a lot of stuff when I'm getting a blockbuster which fills a personal craving niche that isn't available much in other live action movies. But excusing stuff doesn't mean ignoring.
I don't insult people for not liking the movies, and I don't dismiss criticisms just because I had a good time. If I'm not interested in having a discussion about the merits or failings of a film, I simply don't engage in such discussion. If I do, I think there's benefit on both sides to have a civil discourse about what worked in a film and what didn't. Someone can like a movie a lot but still recognize the flaws and debate how strong their impact on the film is. Someone can also dislike a movie complete, and still talk about the parts which worked.
Trying to hoist a war banner, draw sides, and fling mud is not a good direction for any sort of conversations online or otherwise.
I don't insult people for not liking the movies, and I don't dismiss criticisms just because I had a good time. If I'm not interested in having a discussion about the merits or failings of a film, I simply don't engage in such discussion. If I do, I think there's benefit on both sides to have a civil discourse about what worked in a film and what didn't. Someone can like a movie a lot but still recognize the flaws and debate how strong their impact on the film is. Someone can also dislike a movie complete, and still talk about the parts which worked.
Trying to hoist a war banner, draw sides, and fling mud is not a good direction for any sort of conversations online or otherwise.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
What!? Read just a few posts up. Plenty of positive impressions!
That sucks. Hope everything works out.
That's unfortunate. Looks like we won't be able to discuss this until then.
Hope you get stuff sorted out dude!
Pop
Member
High Five
People complaining about Superman destroying the environment, well what would you have done? He's one of the strongest superheros ever and in the movie
he was thrown into the role of protecting Earth almost instantly.
He is ready to step up and defend Earth. With more fighting experience under his belt.
greendomo's ghost
Member
lazytonberry
Member
I don't think I was necessarily doing any of those things but Blader chimed in saying I was acting like a tool. However I do think one issue is that I wrote all my in depth take on the film already in the spoiler thread and there it included all my problems with the film.
Here I am trying to contribute in a non-spoiler way and offset the early negative buzz about the film in saying it is definitely worth watching, at least once if only to form your own opinion, but that relying solely on critics' reviews to avoid it would be sad to me. I have feels for you, random Internet stranger who is reading this.
I don't agree: the bus scene, the classroom scene, and the scene where Jon explains Clark's origins all felt fully formed to me, completely rivaling that opera scene in BB. I think the first 100 minutes of this movie flow pretty damn great.
That's now where I felt the problems were.
It's when the stakes are raised at the end that the movie starts to suffer under the weight of its own ambition. It wants to have that spectacle, the romance, the drama, all working towards the climax but it doesn't have the emotional payoff of BB mostly because BB's individual parts are better than MoS's.
That would have intellectualized and made strategic what was clearly conveyed as a primal heat-of-the-moment exchange. You complain about Superman... what about Zod? If he could be this intellectual villain attempting to inflict maximum suffering on Kal-El, he could have retreated. He could have razed the planet while Kal-El chased him around the world attempting to stem the bloodshed... a losing proposition as Faora makes clear, "For every one you save...."
Zod was driven to hurt Kal-El in a more primal way than that and Clark had to stop him while he was in the red haze. If Clark made it about stemming collateral damage, that would have been showing his underbelly to Zod and inciting him to just plow through buildings to spite Superman. It would have also undermined the film's intent to give you a heated battle and turn it into cold dueling strategies... devolving into Superman: Hostage Negotiator (which is still a losing game). Clark did exactly the right triage decision, even if it wasn't an intellectual one on his part, which was to go directly after Zod.
Ok, just watched it and thought i'd post before I read any opinions. I haven't read any reviews or anything yet.
I enjoyed it but I'm not entirely sure why. I think it may just have been that it was so different from the other movie/TV Superman iterations. Superman gets to fight a lot and that's pretty cool because it's not something that's been done properly up until now.
On the other hand the script is barely there. There is little dialogue except for simple expository "I'm going to go and do this now" stuff. And there is no character development at all, whatsoever. It's a bit of a waste of a decent cast to be honest. The plot can be summed up as 'Zod and co invade Earth and Superman fights them' as nothing else happens at all.
But the fighting's nice. Lot's of collateral damage though - wow. I also thought the film had a strong visual style, if a little too muted (may have been the 3d) and really rather excellent sound design.
Oh and Henry Cavill looks the part, I accepted him as Superman straight away - perfect casting really.
On another note this is actually the time I've ever seen a film in 3d. The first 20 minutes were a bit straining but then I got into it and kind of forgot about it. Everything was a bit too dim. My friend had booked the 3D showing by mistake, I don't think I'll bother with it again.
I enjoyed it but I'm not entirely sure why. I think it may just have been that it was so different from the other movie/TV Superman iterations. Superman gets to fight a lot and that's pretty cool because it's not something that's been done properly up until now.
On the other hand the script is barely there. There is little dialogue except for simple expository "I'm going to go and do this now" stuff. And there is no character development at all, whatsoever. It's a bit of a waste of a decent cast to be honest. The plot can be summed up as 'Zod and co invade Earth and Superman fights them' as nothing else happens at all.
But the fighting's nice. Lot's of collateral damage though - wow. I also thought the film had a strong visual style, if a little too muted (may have been the 3d) and really rather excellent sound design.
Oh and Henry Cavill looks the part, I accepted him as Superman straight away - perfect casting really.
On another note this is actually the time I've ever seen a film in 3d. The first 20 minutes were a bit straining but then I got into it and kind of forgot about it. Everything was a bit too dim. My friend had booked the 3D showing by mistake, I don't think I'll bother with it again.