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Man of Steel |OT| It's about action.

J

jett

D-Member
Matrix said:
Waiting for meds to kick in for my colon disorder, I have IBD. Plus my dad wants to see it, so I'm treating him next Thursday even if I'm sick. Got my tickets booked for a non 3d IMAX showing.

I would have been there at midnight if I was well.
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Ah man sorry to hear, hope you get better and have fun with the movie.

BattleMonkey said:
Movie looked really slick too, it makes Marvel's films look so cheap in comparison.
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Now this is undeniably true.
 
R

Raptor

Member
Matrix said:
Weird cause Returns script made Routh's Superman boring as shit, plus he was just cosplaying Reeve. Routh had nothing to work with in Returns either thanks to Singer.


Oh wait his name is Ralph around here now lol forgot we don't call him Routh anymore.



Wow Kevin Smith called MOS the Batman Begins of Superman films. I might die in my seat out of joy if true.
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lol.

It is man, it really is, I will be preaching this till the end of times.

Been thinkinga lot of this movie and I mean a lot, and the more I diggest the movie the more I love it contrary to some folks here, I think it touched me on a personal level.

There is a lot of people that are not fan of Snyder way of filming movies it seems, same thing happened to Watchmen, some people straightup hated that movie and for me it was the best Superhero movie till I saw MoS.

@Dahbomb

Great review man, glad you liked the movie, also as someone that do likes Transformers and Michael Bay movies I have never thought he has shit on Snyder in terms of shooting action and MoS made it very clear, to me Snyder action is above everything else in terms of spectacle of what you are seeing.
 
M

MrPink93485

Member
Blader5489 said:
But if you look at Snyder's filmography, he can't do narrative. He doesn't understand it. He can put together a handful of amazing sequences here and there - which makes sense, given his background in music videos - but he has no grasp on making a great, 2 hour long story.

The script is a big problem with the movie, but even if they had someone better than Goyer write the sequel, I don't really believe Snyder would actually know how to take advantage of it. I mean, look at Watchmen: I like it, and it has some wonderfully realized sequences in it, but Snyder clearly does not understand the story.



Probably because they share the same writer, so of course they're going to share the same kind of dialogue, same storytelling devices, etc.
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I agree with this a lot, even though I'm not too down on the film. I walked away out of the theater getting exactly what I expected after the reviews came in. The flow of this film doesn't feel organic in any way. The way the flashbacks are timed don't make sense half the time and are a reach at best when they make their connections and as a result they completely miss the mark. Half of its emotional beats are unearned as a result. This was also the case with Watchmen, but at least at the time you could chalk it up to Snyder being a slave to the narrative structure of the graphic novel.

I'm not bothered by the amount of collateral damage/un-Superman like things. It can be done as long as it's done right. But again, it has to be done in a way that makes sense, while I can see how the scenarios might make worked, they didn't quite execute it right. But the action is spectacular as stated, though relentless by movie's end, and I like the cast they assembled greatly. And as expected, it looks very pretty. In terms of depth, it's pretty deficient in a lot of areas, but on a superficial level, there's a lot of enjoyment to be had.

And the last 2-3 minutes are great. Made me leave the theater feeling really positive about the sequel, which it really shouldn't given the same team is presumably coming back, but it made me excited about the scenario it presented.
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
duckroll said:
Time to post more detailed thoughts:

I really appreciate what Zack Snyder wanted to do with the film. I love the vision behind it, and it's easy to see that everyone was trying their best to make a different Superman movie. I'll give it full marks for effort. Unfortunately it's also clear that he's in way over his head. Having never made a serious movie of this sort before which relies more on characterization that just spamming cool stuff on screen, his inexperience shows. The editing in the first half of the film is abysmally poor. Scenes are poorly connected, the chronological rearrangement removes depth and development from characters, and the lack of context makes it hard to care for any of the characters early on. Instead of feeling like a smart non-chronological origin story, it just felt disjointed and messy. This misstep hurts the rest of the movie badly, because when the foundation is weak in a serious film, everything that follows starts to crumble.

While Snyder carries a lot of the blame for the poor execution, I think a substantial amount of fault also lies on Goyer. The script is a muddled mess, and for every great idea (like making Krypton a more fantasy-like world and culture) there are a handful of awful redundant garbage which bogs the film down (like everything involving genetics in the film). The relationships are weak, most of the character arcs are shallow, and yet the script wallows in them like they are a strong driving force and motivation for everything else. Really bizarre choice. There's so much "look at me, I'm a SERIOUS movie", it's hard not to look deeper into every scene, only to see that often there's nothing there, or that the message doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I really liked the individual isolated character moments which did work. Some of Clark's childhood scenes are really well realized and shot, and stand out on their own. They don't really work that well as part of the larger movie, but I really liked some of the moments themselves. The action was also really impressive until it goes right into videogame territory at the very end. The depiction of the Kryptonians and the flight sequences were really cool, and there was a real sense of speed and force when they create impact on the environment or each other. Some of the fights in the middle of the movie were actually enjoyable to watch and felt well planned. The climax was like Kingdom Hearts 2 x Metal Gear Rising though. I guess it's the coolest Superman videogame boss battle I've ever seen, but for a movie it's kinda silly.

I'll give the movie 6.5/10 maybe, and only because I feel bad for Snyder that he failed because of his shortcomings and not because of actual poor decisions. His heart was in the right place, he just lacked the skill and experience for it.
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I both agree and disagree with you. I think your complaints about the first half, and the film in general, mirror mine. The foundations for the movie are weak and so when they try to build on it, it starts to collapse. I do disagree about the action. It is very DBZish which I actually enjoyed. The humanoid action was great. The rest, not so much.


JB1981 said:
I think people's biggest issue is with the non linear narrative structure. We spend the first twenty minutes or so in Krypton. We witness baby Kal's birth, we see Jor-El make an impassioned plea to flee and then we are introduced to Zod and learn of his plans. Baby Kal ultimately escapes to Earth.
We expect that once that ship enters earths atmosphere that the film will continue on in linear fashion. We expect to meet the Kent's and see their discovery of the crashed pod. but no we never see this. Instead the movie makes a jump cut to Clark in his 20s working as a fisherman and then we see him save the crew of the oil rig
. There is no gradual build up or introduction to who this man is. For a moment there i thought the theater I waa in was missing an entire reel of film. I said to mysel What the Fuck??

This is the moment in the film where audiences accept this method of storytelling or begin to tune out. If you don't accept this then you will have a problem with the rest of the movie because the rest of the movie will follow this jarring method of cutting.
This style of cutting also really undermines the moment in the movie where Clark finally dons the cape. In one scene hes in the fortress and in the next hes walking out in the suit... we get that awesome shot of the doors opening with his cape billowing behind him. But it all just.... happens. There is no dramatic build-up. nothing .. shit just happens.

This is where the movie is very similar to Batman Begins BUT Begins actually made it work. If the movie had followed a traditional, linear 3 act structure with a Campbellian hero's journey at the center, then I think people would
have been fine with it. I am not sure all this cutting around actually improves the movie. This is in my opinion the biggest aspect of the movie that turns people off - the feeling of displacement and a lack of gradual exposure to the character. This is also what is causing the complaints about lack of character development. I personally believe that the movie recovers from this but this is, in my view, the source of all the negative reactions.

Also the movie poses some very interesting themes about the kind of cultural shock that a Superman would have on the world and I'm quite disappointed that the movie did not capitalize on that. It was an aspect of the story that I never gave much thought and I found that very intriguing. It's too bad the filmmakers preferred to go route of action spectacle in the final half rather than give that theme the insight it deserved

Also wanted to add that in typical Nolan fashion the movie has heavy handed scenes of exposition that completely stop the story in its tracks. Information dumps are usually the first sign of a failure of storytelling and in this movie there is about 2 or 3 of them, which again probably would have not been necessary if the narrative structure wasnt so scattered
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Yep. The flashback usage was the worst decision they made about the movie. It doesn't work and robs the film of the development it needed.
 
B

Blader

Member
ReiGun said:
If there problems are with the script, then that's the fault of the person who wrote it. I'm not saying Synder is beyond criticism, but to say "such and such about the writing is off" and then turn around and say "but that's not the fault of the person who wrote it" strikes me as trying too hard to lay all the blame at Synder's feet.

Goyer also didn't write Batman Begins's screenplay alone like he did here. That's important to note as well.
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I don't think anyone is absolving Goyer of blame (or at least they shouldn't be). But Snyder's the fucking director, it's his name on the movie. He may not have written the script but he didn't do much to salvage it either. If he's happy enough with the script as is, then its problems lie with him too.

Script aside, the movie has plenty of issues that can only be attributed to Snyder anyway.
 
J

JCizzle

Member
Totally fuck the haters on this movie, so much hyperbolic crap was thrown around in the days leading up to this. It certainly wasn't a perfect movie, but it has the best action scenes from any superhero movie ever. Considering it's a superhero movie, that's a pretty major component of any movie in the genre. I disliked some of the major story decisions they took, but I think those decisions were also pretty gutsy and may pay off in future installments. For the most part it was casted well, but I don't think I'll ever associate Amy Adams with Lois even after they do more movies with her. She just doesn't fit my vision of Lois and watching the movie didn't change that.
 
J

JB1981

Member
I thought she was fine as Lois. Much better than Kate Bosworth. And I like the basis on which their relationship blossoms. Clark trusts her because she respects his emotional struggle. It's not a conventional "romance" in the Hollywood sense. It's a relationship built on trust and understanding between two people. Seemed very real to me.
 
R

ReiGun

Member
Blader5489 said:
I don't think anyone is absolving Goyer of blame (or at least they shouldn't be). But Snyder's the fucking director, it's his name on the movie. He may not have written the script but he didn't do much to salvage it either. If he's happy enough with the script as is, then its problems lie with him too.

Script aside, the movie has plenty of issues that can only be attributed to Snyder anyway.
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I was speaking of the friend I mentioned in particular on the bolded. lol

Again, I'm not trying to absolve Synder of blame or whatever. I'm just arguing against the notion of saying "It's Synder's issue" when it's clear it wasn't just his efforts that people found lacking in this instance.
 
S

sweetvar26

Member
How are my fellow people liking it so far?

I will probably watch this again sometime this week. Still waiting on the numbers too, I need a sequel to this.
 
K

Kajiba

Member
Pretty sure I'm going to look at this movie two or three more times before it leaves the theatre.

I'm really happy I only saw the first trailer for this movie. Accidentally seen a couple of seconds of other trailers in the coming weeks of the movie but quickly turn the tv off so I wouldn't see it lol.

Russel Crowe as Jor-el was something else, Just amazing. They gave him some inspirational speeches throughout movie. Eye watery words man...
 
L

lazytonberry

Member
This is the kind of movie that you put on pants, face the crowds and pay the high concession stand prices for. The sights and sounds are quite a show.

Screw the negative comments and haters. Don't go in with any preconcieved expectations on what it should be or what it needs to be. Go in to have a good time and escape life for a couple hours and you shouldn't be disappointed. Unless you're the kind of person who goes into summer blockbusters and frequently leaves disappointed with how everything is an epic action flick and superheroes.

Maybe the critics just don't know how to have fun or enjoy themselves anymore because they are so cynical and "above" everything that us normal peasants partake in.

I just feel sorry for those who purposely miss out or avoid this movie now because of mixed reception. It is so worth seeing on the big screen.
 
W

witness

Member
JB1981 said:
Russel surprised me. I thought he'd phone it in. He has the best performance in the movie along with Costner.
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Yes yes yes, they were both fantastic. Crowe knocked it out of the park. Now when I think of Superman, its Cavill. He really did good selling that character.
 
N

Ninjimbo

Member
Jarmel said:
Yep. The flashback usage was the worst decision they made about the movie. It doesn't work and robs the film of the development it needed.
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Can I ask how?

Those flashbacks were some of the best scenes in the movie because they portrayed Clark's roots. They showed how scary it can be to wield so much power at a young age and, more importantly, gives us a perspective on the Kents who are pretty much Clark's base for identifying with the Earth and its people. Every one of those scenes was sentimental and gave the movie its emotional core.

I don't understand how anyone can criticize the editing when most of these flashbacks were given context and usually came within the lulls of the narrative.
 
D

duckroll

Member
Jarmel said:
I both agree and disagree with you. I think your complaints about the first half, and the film in general, mirror mine. The foundations for the movie are weak and so when they try to build on it, it starts to collapse. I do disagree about the action. It is very DBZish which I actually enjoyed. The humanoid action was great. The rest, not so much.
Click to expand...

I love most of the action though. I think the fight between
Superman and Faoro+Gruntdude in the middle of the film was a really stunning set piece. That single shot where Superman tries to take off to escape but the grunt grabs his legs, and then he flips and attacks both Faora and the Grunt as the camera slowly pans towards the right
was the best character action scene I've seen this year. I just feel that the finale battle itself took way too many nods from videogame stuff and got just a bit over the top.
 
R

Raptor

Member
duckroll said:
I love most of the action though. I think the fight between
Superman and Faoro+Gruntdude in the middle of the film was a really stunning set piece. That single shot where Superman tries to take off to escape but the grunt grabs his legs, and then he flips and attacks both Faora and the Grunt as the camera slowly pans towards the right
was the best character action scene I've seen this year. I just feel that the finale battle itself took way too many nods from videogame stuff and got just a bit over the top.
Click to expand...

They were to super powerfull beings from another planet, it should be over the top.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
Blader5489 said:
But if you look at Snyder's filmography, he can't do narrative. He doesn't understand it. He can put together a handful of amazing sequences here and there - which makes sense, given his background in music videos - but he has no grasp on making a great, 2 hour long story.

The script is a big problem with the movie, but even if they had someone better than Goyer write the sequel, I don't really believe Snyder would actually know how to take advantage of it. I mean, look at Watchmen: I like it, and it has some wonderfully realized sequences in it, but Snyder clearly does not understand the story.
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I disagree: Both Dawn of the Dead and 300 have very compact narratives, and Watchmen may feel dramatically hollow sometimes, but it's not due to Snyder's misunderstanding the narrative (the fight to keep the movie as faithful as it is shows that) as it is his overbearing REVERENCE to it. Watchmen doesn't work because Snyder doesn't want to adapt it, he wants photocopy it as much as possible.

Snyder is as good as his script, period. Sucker Punch is all the proof you need of that.

James Gunn wrote him a solid script - Dawn of the Dead is his best movie.
Zack Snyder wrote himself a jumbled mess - Sucker Punch is his worst movie
David Goyer wrote him a Star Wars prequel - Man of Steel is pretty okay.

That's not to say he's fully exonerated or anything: HE IS the director. The director has a lot of say over what ends up in the movie, of course. If he wanted the script a little tighter, if he wanted things to flow a little nicer - maybe he could have pushed to have those elements addressed. But I don't think you can look back at Snyder's filmography and say every misstep in the movie is all him, especially considering that filmography is filled with moments and beats that specifically show he knows how to do the things this movie lacks from time to time.

duckroll said:
I just feel that the finale battle itself took way too many nods from videogame stuff and got just a bit over the top.
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You keep citing videogames and I never thought that. Maybe we're not playing the same video games (which is completely possible, I'm not trying to knock you or videogames) but to me, that final fight was straight up "Superman: The Animated Series" Many of the moves used in it have been, at one time or another, used on that show.

I don't think it looked particularly videogamey. It looked pretty cartoonish. But I liked those cartoons, myself, and as I've said before in this thread - this film did reinforce my belief that DC's best bet to separate themselves from Marvel isn't to be the "realistic" superhero studio, it's to start looking REAL HARD at why "The Incredibles" worked, and start mapping their DCAU to high-budget CG Animation as fast as possible.
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
Ninjimbo said:
Can I ask how?

Those flashbacks were some of the best scenes in the movie because they portrayed Clark's roots. They showed how scary it can be to wield so much power at a young age and, more importantly, gives us a perspective on the Kents who are pretty much Clark's base for identifying with the Earth and its people. Every one of those scenes was sentimental and gave the movie its emotional core.

I don't understand how anyone can criticize the editing when most of these flashbacks were given context and usually came within the lulls of the narrative.
Click to expand...

It's because it's a 'Greatest Hits' version of his life. They don't let the scenes breathe or naturally form but rather just throw it at you. Like instead of seeing the natural relationships between the characters, we just have to see the junction points. It robs both the past and present, in the film, of any buildup.
 
M

My Name Is Luke

Member
Saw it last night with a friend, I didn't hate it but I'm not in love with it either. I thought the action and visuals were really great, but the story came off too heavy handed with the whole "SUPERMAN=JESUS" and the dad pretty much always saying "DO GOOD, YOU'LL BE A HERO SOME DAY" every time on screen.
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
duckroll said:
I love most of the action though. I think the fight between
Superman and Faoro+Gruntdude in the middle of the film was a really stunning set piece. That single shot where Superman tries to take off to escape but the grunt grabs his legs, and then he flips and attacks both Faora and the Grunt as the camera slowly pans towards the right
was the best character action scene I've seen this year. I just feel that the finale battle itself took way too many nods from videogame stuff and got just a bit over the top.
Click to expand...

I do agree the bit in
Smallville
is probably the best fight sequence in the movie, probablqy to the point that it kinda hurts the later sequence. I also think there are a few bits that rather aren't that interesting but I think
throwing Zod into the satellite did warm the icy crevasse of my heart a bit
. I'm mostly accepting of it because I know how strong Superman can be when pushed. I do think they should have held some restraint, if only for the sequel. How do you top the fight sequence, destructionwise, at the end of this film? You can't unless you start wiping out countries.
 
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