Yeah both are a given since they're plot points anyway, after that anyone is fair game I wouldn't even bat an eye if Ichigo 2 came back (you know black aired ichigo that was an officer above Rukia).
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Yeah both are a given since they're plot points anyway, after that anyone is fair game I wouldn't even bat an eye if Ichigo 2 came back (you know black aired ichigo that was an officer above Rukia).
gundamkyoukai
Member
This is right in a lot of ways when OP chars do something or something happens it won't affect there personality .
Like when Zoro put Luffy dream above his own it's a change some what but he still going to act the same way for next 700 chapters lol .
well, if you compare luffy to more "beloved" protagonists here like Ichigo or Naruto, he has more character growth than both of them combined.
i mean, when he was just a bratty annoying kid until that incident with shanks then he decided to become a pirate which was then pushed more farther with sabo dying. years later he gained nakamas who believed in him because of how positive he is about everything and how he really believed in his dream. then we can see how he handles his friends like they're really his family, that moment with nami was really great and robin and usopp almost all of them really felt that luffy cares for them which you can also see when they disappeared at sabaody. he also realize that he was weak and he needed to be more powerful to protect his friends so don't tell me that he is a one dimensional character. he may seem more positive now at the new world but that maybe because of his new found confidence of his strength and knowing that he can handle things better than he was 2 years ago. that's much better always being emo shit like everyone else.
also, why do you guys want to break the interactions of the straw hats? its unnecessary this late in the story that they still argue and don't cooperate with each other. they're always in "party mode" because that's how happy they are together. do you want to spend reading a chapter of them moping around the ship blaming each other for being weak and crying over what has happened in the past? i don't think so.
i mean, when he was just a bratty annoying kid until that incident with shanks then he decided to become a pirate which was then pushed more farther with sabo dying. years later he gained nakamas who believed in him because of how positive he is about everything and how he really believed in his dream. then we can see how he handles his friends like they're really his family, that moment with nami was really great and robin and usopp almost all of them really felt that luffy cares for them which you can also see when they disappeared at sabaody. he also realize that he was weak and he needed to be more powerful to protect his friends so don't tell me that he is a one dimensional character. he may seem more positive now at the new world but that maybe because of his new found confidence of his strength and knowing that he can handle things better than he was 2 years ago. that's much better always being emo shit like everyone else.
also, why do you guys want to break the interactions of the straw hats? its unnecessary this late in the story that they still argue and don't cooperate with each other. they're always in "party mode" because that's how happy they are together. do you want to spend reading a chapter of them moping around the ship blaming each other for being weak and crying over what has happened in the past? i don't think so.
Ichigo has had more growth, as a character, than Luffy. That is pretty much a given. But then again, people don't love Luffy for his growth as a human being and all that contributes to being human. They love him for his simplistic nature. And that's cool.
Naruto's growth is a bit harder to gauge. Well, for me, it's development, but it is shitty development that actually detracts from his character.
Naruto's growth is a bit harder to gauge. Well, for me, it's development, but it is shitty development that actually detracts from his character.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
The plot-focused arcs after the timeskip haven't been as strong as the character-focused arcs beforehand. However I'm still withhold judgment on it because the saga is not over yet and there will probably still be a huge payoff at the end. This was probably an inevitable change though since we ran out of Strawhats to develop and introduce. The author tries to counter this by giving the same character focus to side characters (example: Mermaid princess, samurais) like usual, but obviously this will be weaker than one about the main characters.
The interaction in One Piece is top notch, as is the world building. The character development has been stagnant for most of the main Strawhats for the reasons stated above. Their stories have already been told (for now) and are obviously on the backburner as the author works on world building stories. This is fine since most of the Strawhats are well set currently and are still in the calm stage after the pre-time skip stuff (Nami probably could use development the soonest though since she's been pretty stagnant since Skypeia for the most part).
Overall, One Piece is still an excellent shonen, especially compared to its other long running brethren. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But for a long running mass appealing shonen, its still the best in the business. And does it repeat the same "shtick"? Of course it does. You don't have a series that runs for over 15 years without repeating its core themes over and over. Hell, most shows/series/whatever can't go 1 year without doing this.
A lot of your criticisms, Beam, are true of all shonens. Its part of the genre. The only difference between your annoyance at One Piece doing so compared to, lets say, Bleach is that you personally love Bleach and thus are more willing to put up its genre tropes. Which is perfectly fine, just like its perfectly fine that someone does the same for One Piece.
i can agree about naruto, but i don't know about ichigo. he seems to be the same as when the series started maybe much less stubborn. also, i really don't get what's his goal in the story. does he wants to be the very best like no one ever was to protect everyone?
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Yeah, I wouldn't really say Luffy or Ichigo has had much character development. They're still both the same characters as they were at the beginning of the series. Sure they've gotten plenty of powerups, storylines and even some arcs you can point to that had their character grow (Marineford and Soul Society, respectively). But neither of them are who I think of when I think of leads going through character development. They both follow the Dragonball model of having a consistent lead.
Naruto, on the other hand, has had definite character development throughout the series, even if a lot of it was presented in the shittiest way possible. You can't really say that Naruto was the same character at the beginning of the series compared to now.
Naruto, on the other hand, has had definite character development throughout the series, even if a lot of it was presented in the shittiest way possible. You can't really say that Naruto was the same character at the beginning of the series compared to now.
Ichigo definitely isn't the same as he was at the beginning.
Some questionable grammar and also some fan-hyperbole, but there's evidence and facts there to back it all up.
And no, Ichigo doesn't really have a goal. He wanted to be normal for a while, but now he knows that normal won't cut it when it comes to making sure the people he cares about don't get hurt.
Click
Some questionable grammar and also some fan-hyperbole, but there's evidence and facts there to back it all up.
And no, Ichigo doesn't really have a goal. He wanted to be normal for a while, but now he knows that normal won't cut it when it comes to making sure the people he cares about don't get hurt.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Kaien? Yeah, he was eaten by espada number 9. Well every soul in Bleach that died by a zampakto is bound to return. All those who died by quincy arrows stay dead. That´s why the world becomes imbalanced. That´s the whole story of shinigami. Eveyone that was killed by a zampakto will be back.
How long are you willing to wait until you can judge it?
How can the interaction between the SH be top notch if most of it is meaningless. I am not saying that they should be serious all the time, but how about planning? Just right now Law made the planes and Luffy is following them. He does not make any planes and he is responsible for his crew. It´s just spontaneously let´s stop here and there. That annoys me somewhat since he´s the captain and he is responsible for his crew.
Ukitake and Shunsui at the end of the Fullbring arc say that Ichigo has grown up.
For further info check the below post.
I love this. Thanks a lot for posting it man.
Oh they obviously didn't expect it to be the next DB/OP (except in their wildest dreams) but considering how much they have downplayed Bleach to push Toriko, I'm sure they would've liked to have see it at least reach 400k opening week sales.
Luffy is never going to get much character development because he's a Goku-like character. He's the hero who will sacrifice himself to save his friends, he's also an idiot and a glutton. When Ace died Luffy went and trained much like when Krillin died in Dragonball and Goku went to train at Kami's lookout.
This is my main problem with Luffy, especially after the Saboady Archipelago event. It obviously pained him his friends were separated, and every fan felt really sorry for him, but did it teach him anything? Nope, he still goes rushing in blindly, putting his crew in danger just because it's fun, then ends up crying if it doesn't go his way. It's really no different from Natsu ignoring Gildartz's talk of fear, which everybody complains about, but this is OP so it magically gets a pass.
Edit: Cheers for the link Stat. Will read later.
curlyfriski
Banned
Here's how "character growth" works for MCs of the Big Three and like series:
1. MC starts out not strong enough to protect his nakama.
2. MC realizes he is not strong enough to protect his nakama; declares he will become strong enough to protect his nakama.
3. MC becomes strong enough to protect his nakama.
If you're looking for more, you're in the wrong genre.
1. MC starts out not strong enough to protect his nakama.
2. MC realizes he is not strong enough to protect his nakama; declares he will become strong enough to protect his nakama.
3. MC becomes strong enough to protect his nakama.
If you're looking for more, you're in the wrong genre.
Shingeki no Kyojin 42
I already
so i don't have a problem with the revelation itself, but the way the thing was revealed is... ugh. Makes you wonder whatever the author was drunk when he wrote this, because until now every twist has been perfectly placed.
The titans objective become more and more confusing, i guess
I already
suspected Reiner and his buddy being Titans (although the last chapters made a good job at killing the idea)
The titans objective become more and more confusing, i guess
they no longer feel like they need to destroy humanity because of Eren proved natural-born humans can also obtain the ability to turn into Titans? What is about humanity that disturbs the Titans?
gundamkyoukai
Member
SB and War teach him was that he was weak , that was the whole point of the time skip .
Most of time it does go his way part of being MC which is why the one time it did not happen it was power up time .
Luffy does put his crew in danger yes but almost all the time most of the crew agree with it expect maybe the weak trio .
What you talking about happens in shit ton of manga where MC does shit without a plan .
This is correct .
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I don't think that they've really said anything about the titans current goal. Other than generally fucking shit up for the humans.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
They sure have. They Toriko besides Naruto and Luffy, and left Ichigo behind. Jump did everything they can to push Toriko. 2 cross animation between Toriko and one piece, and one shot manga with Toriko and one piece, and now DB, op, and Toriko will be in an anime (maybe one shot manga) together. People are not taking much into it regardless how much Jump pushes it.
Even more confusing is , are they
(Reiner and gangs) actually Titans disguising as human , or are the humanxtitans a different hybrid . And then is humanity the necessary foods for the titans or they are actually eating for fun
At least the manga crossovers make sense since both authors are friends, similar to the Sket Dance x Gintama stuff.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I think it's beyond any doubt now that titans are just transformed humans, it's just that we don't know if it's only a few of them or all of them that are capable of freely switching between both.
okay, im enlightened.
i guess we can all agree ichigo>>>luffy>>>>>>>naruto in character development.that's how luffy is since day one, he makes decisions impulsively because he loves adventure. also, i think he is confident in the skills of his crewmates so he knows they'll come through every situation they're in. sabaody was different because their powerups are pretty much needed at that point. the straw hats are not like other pirates who need an elaborate plan in everything but when it is needed, they do make plans. they're not a perfect crew and luffy makes mistakes, but if he is really incompetent they wouldn't be alive to see the new world. and your idea of how should the straw hats work together will make a boring story. all talk and no fun.
as i've said, its luffy. the straw hats know luffy's attitude but they still follow him because they believe he will come through eventually. the sabaody event was something that has to happen because they needed to be shown as weaker than the people of new world and they needed a powerup but in the other arcs, the crew always came together after the string of troubles they're in and they get through it together.
Why did you post that?
Now I have to read some chapters of Bleach because that bit with Isshin was kinda cool
RepairmanJack
Member
Not to bring this argument back up, but to be foreshadowing doesn't your theory on this chapter have to first be correct? We have no idea what the skeleton stuff in this chapter was yet. It's just as likely could go along with the acid theory or something else.
In this case you kind of are just seeing what you want to see....so far at least.
The thing with One Piece is that that type of fluff is usually put into the background, particularly if we the readers already knows what's up.
This is just after when they all rejoin and things have calmed down.
Plus there was no need for the crew to ask Luffy about how he was feeling, soon after the news hit that Ace died, they were all trying to rush back to Saobondy immediately, but then Luffy left the message to come back in 2 years, nothing more needed to be said 2 years later.
brotkasten
Member
Thanks for that link. You tend to miss some details when you read something like this on a weekly basis in 30 seconds per chapter over years.
Neoriceisgood
Member
One Piece didn't even come out this week yet Beam still started another One Piece argument. I think the guy is actually tsundere for the series
I prefer to see him as yandere for Bleach.
Dedication Through Light
Member
Thankfully Mashima knows how to break genre trends with Natsu Dragneel.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Please don't bring up FT as an example of breaking genre trends DTL, you know better than that.
This is what Laughing Banana meant by 'baiting'
Crimsonlink
Member
To get into the debate between Bleach and OP. I personally prefer Bleach over OP mostly because of abilities and the universe that Kubo has created compared to Oda's OP universe.
Swords and monsters wins over pirate adventures any day for me.
It also appeals to me that I like nearly all of Bleach's wide cast vs just the main crew of OP which imo is one of Oda's weakness in regards to side characters. Still don't care about Sabo to this day.
I do think that OP is missing those moments from when Zoro fought Mihawk, Usopp fought Luffy, Robin saying she wants to live in Enis Lobby, Luffy beating Arlong to save Nami, even Vivi's kingdom being saved and these kind of moments just don't exist in the current time skip/arcs.
All in all it comes down to preference. If you ask Japan, their over 3 million sales of OP volumes tell you what is popular there.
I can tell why people dislike this weeks chapter based on what they say, but as a biased fan I don't see anything out of the ordinary. Just a regular good Bleach chapter to me.
The less I say about Naruto the better.
Swords and monsters wins over pirate adventures any day for me.
It also appeals to me that I like nearly all of Bleach's wide cast vs just the main crew of OP which imo is one of Oda's weakness in regards to side characters. Still don't care about Sabo to this day.
I do think that OP is missing those moments from when Zoro fought Mihawk, Usopp fought Luffy, Robin saying she wants to live in Enis Lobby, Luffy beating Arlong to save Nami, even Vivi's kingdom being saved and these kind of moments just don't exist in the current time skip/arcs.
All in all it comes down to preference. If you ask Japan, their over 3 million sales of OP volumes tell you what is popular there.
I can tell why people dislike this weeks chapter based on what they say, but as a biased fan I don't see anything out of the ordinary. Just a regular good Bleach chapter to me.
The less I say about Naruto the better.
Just browsing through some old Bleach chapters. My god, the structure of every single fight is hidden powerup after hidden powerup after hidden powerup. No strategy, no tactics, just random sword swings that obliterate the entire page and revelations about hidden powers that are immediately countered until someone wins.
Oh well... I guess it's still kinda fun.
Oh well... I guess it's still kinda fun.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Are you claiming Bleach repeats the same patterns and arcs over and over again in a repetitive fashion?!
From what I read of Bleach almost all of Ichigo's fights were him losing, powering up then winning. That's fairly standard shonen stuff though, but the fights themselves were kinda dull. Ichigo would attack the villian, the villian would dodge and appear behind Ichigo but Ichigo would do the same thing until the villian lost. Of course One Piece and Naruto both have a structure to their fights that are repeated endlessly but they're less boring then Bleach's.
RepairmanJack
Member
It's all in the heart.
Well that one fight was pretty damn good in Toradora.
That megapost is bullshit anyway. It keeps claiming stuff like...
"Compare it (ichigo's behaviour) to the wimpy kid who didn't want to take the responsibility of protecting everyone because it was too much of a hassle."
Using that one panel, when that isn't even true of his character at that point. He was already sticking his neck out for chad, rukia, his sisters, whoever because that's just who he was anyway. The whole protecting everyone thing is the point of his fucking character and his been since the start. All that panel was was his dumbass, immature posturing.
nabbed this from the bleach wiki-
So what exactly taking that out is his development? He apparently learns to fight with his brain, sheds the tough guy act (sometimes), learns basic human empathy (what the author of that post calls a "power to read people" lmao) and becomes OK with taking orders from soul society and killing.
It's even funnier when you consider that there's multiple panels saying that he "never changes" or is "still the same as then" when talking about ichigo, heck 476, the chapter he used at the end has rukia saying exactly that.
basically it's all BS written to manipulate people into thinking bleach is better than it is. You could make a way better post in this vain about Luffy or even Coby from one piece without even trying.
"Compare it (ichigo's behaviour) to the wimpy kid who didn't want to take the responsibility of protecting everyone because it was too much of a hassle."
Using that one panel, when that isn't even true of his character at that point. He was already sticking his neck out for chad, rukia, his sisters, whoever because that's just who he was anyway. The whole protecting everyone thing is the point of his fucking character and his been since the start. All that panel was was his dumbass, immature posturing.
nabbed this from the bleach wiki-
So what exactly taking that out is his development? He apparently learns to fight with his brain, sheds the tough guy act (sometimes), learns basic human empathy (what the author of that post calls a "power to read people" lmao) and becomes OK with taking orders from soul society and killing.
It's even funnier when you consider that there's multiple panels saying that he "never changes" or is "still the same as then" when talking about ichigo, heck 476, the chapter he used at the end has rukia saying exactly that.
basically it's all BS written to manipulate people into thinking bleach is better than it is. You could make a way better post in this vain about Luffy or even Coby from one piece without even trying.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Well most of the Bleachophiles seem to get major bankais when a character's opinion on why he fights is slightly different 200 chapters later.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Yeah, I was waiting for it to be released in France.
Love Tyrant 5
The first couple of chapters made it seem like this was going for more of a D-frag or Fujiwara Meitsu style series but it's actually got some nice drama in between the comedy. The student, despite saying otherwise, clearly loves the teacher. Of course the teacher overheard her saying that she doesn't love him so that's what the next chapter will focus on.
The first couple of chapters made it seem like this was going for more of a D-frag or Fujiwara Meitsu style series but it's actually got some nice drama in between the comedy. The student, despite saying otherwise, clearly loves the teacher. Of course the teacher overheard her saying that she doesn't love him so that's what the next chapter will focus on.
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