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[Phoenician_Viking]

The main cast of TLA go through more growth than anyone in Bleach.

Not true at all. Besides there are much larger cast in Bleach with more fleshed out characters.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sadly, it's simply fitting, here.
Did you finally get the timeline right though, this time around? Do you realize, now, that "Tobi" got his bit of Eight-Tails chakra on the first day of the war, i.e. a while ago? And that he hasn't spent the whole time fighting since then? 'Cause you certainly didn't seem to, earlier, and I have yet to see you admit as much.


Pretty much how I feel.


Because they're right there. Wouldn't have been an issue had Tobi executed his plan earlier, when he wasn't surrounded by a bunch of enemies.


My argument was that he should have summoned it earlier. Guess I didn't quite repeat myself enough...


Despite the fact he just said that he didn't really need them to execute his plan, in this week's episode, yes. That's precisely what makes no sense, in fact. Thanks for keeping up.

Ah, fuck that. You're just being silly.

At least Big One is capable of following a discussion.

Tobi clearly wanted the perfected beast and you're just seconded guessing why he did despite the fact its patently obvious it was more advantageous to have the perfected beast. Tobi also didn't know that Naruto had recieved a massive power up OR that he had tamed Kurama entirely. The fact that he said he COULD pull IT off with an imperfect best doesn't mean he literally did not want or need them and was just doing it for no reason. The fact he thinks he can execute his plan without them doesn't meant that it's not risky or that there's no reason to do it according to plan. Explain why this is invalid. Do not explain why I'm dumb instead of extrapolating your answer to this.

 

[Infinite Justice]

I guess this party is finally getting started.

At least Big One is capable of following a discussion.

Ice cold.

 

[Erigu]

At least Big One is capable of following a discussion.

Yeah, I like people who can do that.

 

[Kusagari]

Because Kubo can't draw backgrounds? PEACE.

The backgrounds in Bleach have lots of character.

So much character that they can't even be seen.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

How is Bleach character driven?

The whole manga revolve about Ichigo's day to day life. He does not have all these ambitions about being a hokage or pirate king. He just wants to protect everyone. How's that not character driven. A lot of things that happens to Ichigo's advance the plot directly or indirectly. Everything is connected to him one way or another.

 

[Wiseblade]

Before this goes any further can any of you define "character-driven" and give a non manga example?

Using Non-manga examples? Hmm...

"Plot driven" usually referrs to the act of dropping established characters into new scenarios and writing based on that. The events of the plot are more important than the actual characters, who are really just a vessel for telling it. I would consider the James Bond movies and example of plot driven work. James Bond is always James Bond and for the most part is pretty much the same character throughout, most of the uniqueness come from the things/people he encounters.

"character driven" usually referrs to works where the growth and motivations of the characters are what directly push the plot forward. Major events are less important for their own sake and more for how they affect the cast. While I'm only around a quarter of the way through the first book, What I've read so far and seen people post online about Game of Thrones suggests that the series is largely character driven.

The whole manga revolve about Ichigo's day to day life. He does not have all these ambitions about being a hokage or pirate king. He just wants to protect everyone. How's that not character driven. A lot of things that happens to Ichigo's advance the plot directly or indirectly. Everything is connected to him one way or another.

That's not the sign of a character driven work, that's just because Ichigo is the main character. And his detachment to the main plot is the reason why Bleach has so many rescue arcs.

 

[Stat Flow]

Oh you guys

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

At least Big One is capable of following a discussion.

Tobi clearly wanted the perfected beast and you're just seconded guessing why he did despite the fact its patently obvious it was more advantageous to have the perfected beast. Tobi also didn't know that Naruto had recieved a massive power up OR that he had tamed Kurama entirely. The fact that he said he COULD pull IT off with an imperfect best doesn't mean he literally did not want or need them and was just doing it for no reason. The fact he thinks he can execute his plan without them doesn't meant that it's not risky or that there's no reason to do it according to plan. Explain why this is invalid. Do not explain why I'm dumb instead of extrapolating your answer to this.

I agree especially when Tobi says that he wanted to resurrect it in its perfect form. Which means that he can resurrect it but he needs all the 8 and 9 tails chakra to be perfected. That does not mean that he can't resurrect it in its unperfect form.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to default to the assumption that characters are acting irrationally for no reason at all. It's not fair storytelling to assume that whenever a character does something that a Vulcan wouldn't do, it's the result a plot hole.

 

[foodtaster]

y'all are all silly.

1. tobi doesn't know if he can do the infinite thingy with the incomplete beast. that's an assumption he's making.

2. tobi is clearly an emotional person, rational behavior isn't really his specialty. otherwise, he could have captured naruto long ago, and beat bee long ago as well. how? well he's encountered naruto before.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Zuko alone had more character development than any character in Bleach.

Are we REALLY comparing ATLA to Bleach in terms of Character development? C'mon Son.

 

[Angry Grimace]

y'all are all silly.

1. tobi doesn't know if he can do the infinite thingy with the incomplete beast. that's an assumption he's making.

2. tobi is clearly an emotional person, rational behavior isn't really his specialty. otherwise, he could have captured naruto long ago, and beat bee long ago as well. how? well he's encountered naruto before.

Which is my point: the fact that Tobi says he can do it with the imperfect form doesn't mean it's of equal strategic value to gain the perfect form vs. the imperfect form.

 

[Erigu]

tobi doesn't know if he can do the infinite thingy with the incomplete beast. that's an assumption he's making.

How do you know that? Seems like an assumption you're making. You're assuming his confidence is either baseless or feigned.

tobi is clearly an emotional person, rational behavior isn't really his specialty.

Let's be blunt: he's an idiot.

 

[foodtaster]

Which is my point: the fact that Tobi says he can do it with the imperfect form doesn't mean it's of equal strategic value to gain the perfect form vs. the imperfect form.

yeah i agree with ya, I was just too lazy to address the person directly.

How do you know? Seems like an assumption you're making.

it's pretty clear that he's assuming as the beast is has never been released since the sage dude sealed it.

Let's be blunt: he's an idiot.

nah, not an idiot exactly. just inconsistent

 

[Tess3ract]

Let's be blunt: he's an idiot.

He's only as smart as his creator.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Using Non-manga examples? Hmm...

"Plot driven" usually referrs to the act of dropping established characters into new scenarios and writing based on that. The events of the plot are more important than the actual characters, who are really just a vessel for telling it. I would consider the James Bond movies and example of plot driven work. James Bond is always James Bond and for the most part is pretty much the same character throughout, most of the uniqueness come from the things/people he encounters.

"character driven" usually referrs to works where the growth and motivations of the characters are what directly push the plot forward. Major events are less important for their own sake and more for how they affect the cast. While I'm only around a quarter of the way through the first book, What I've read so far and seen people post online about Game of Thrones suggests that the series is largely character driven.



That's not the sign of a character driven work, that's just because Ichigo is the main character. And his detachment to the main plot is the reason why Bleach has so many rescue arcs.

Ichigo's becomes a shinigami, the plot moves forward. Ichigo attains bankai the plot moves forward. Ichigo becomes a vizard, the plot moves forward. Ichigo gets Fulbring the plot moves forward. Every single plot device or trigger is caused by Ichigo directly or indirectly. Luffy or Naruto do not advance the plot. They are merely puzzles in a greater plot. Ichigo advances the plot. For instance because Ichigo went to Hueco Mundo, the Vander Reich attacked Soul Society.

 

[Angry Grimace]

He's only as smart as his creator.

I'm not saying Tobi is a good character; in fact, I would agree he's a relatively bad character. I'm simply saying his actions so far don't result in some plot hole that make the entire series non-sensical.

I don't even necessarily agree it was a problem he didn't capture Naruto at that point; Naruto with Sage Mode was obscenely powerful - the fact Tobi got Naruto in that cage doesn't mean he was a match for him at that point. Particularly given Tobi said a few times before that that he had been weakened and was trying to restore his power.

 

[Erigu]

He's only as smart as his creator.

Yup...
Although I'd also blame Kishimoto's tantô/editor. For example, the dialogue (in Japanese) is so fucked-up, sometimes, it's like the guy doesn't give a damn...

 

[foodtaster]

I'm not saying Tobi is a good character; in fact, I would agree he's a relatively bad character. I'm simply saying his actions so far don't result in some plot hole that make the entire series non-sensical.

I don't even necessarily agree it was a problem he didn't capture Naruto at that point; Naruto with Sage Mode was obscenely powerful - the fact Tobi got Naruto in that cage doesn't mean he was a match for him at that point. Particularly given Tobi said a few times before that that he had been weakened and was trying to restore his power.

it is inconsistent that tobi did not capture naruto when he was next to him and chapters later it is revealed that tobi can capture you just by being next to you with that absorption tech.

 

[Angry Grimace]

it is inconsistent that tobi did not capture naruto when he was next to him and chapters later it is revealed that tobi can capture you just by being next to you with that absorption tech.

I don't know; Naruto is a lot faster than the people he has captured. My recollection is that most of them have been unconscious or not moving; I only recall him sucking in Nagato's corpse, unconscious Sasuke/Karin (who was willing to be sucked in) and those random unconcious Konoha ninjas. Naruto is so fast that people compare him to his father who used a literal teleportation technique.

 

[Erigu]

it's pretty clear that he's assuming as the beast is has never been released since the sage dude sealed it.

It's a plan years in the making and he sounds confident, so I wouldn't assume he doesn't know what he's talking about. For example, one would have to assume he has good reasons to believe he can use the Ten-Tails to cast an infinite Tsukuyomi, even if that was never done before. We're not privy to them, but... well, it's either that, or he's an even bigger clown. Sure, the latter is a possibility, but...

nah, not an idiot exactly. just inconsistent

As discussed earlier, his scheming and the war he gleefully declared weren't just unnecessary but actually counter-productive, so I think "idiot" fits the bill. The guy is his own worst enemy.

I don't know; Naruto is a lot faster than the people he has captured.

Get him while he's hyperventilating.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Zuko alone had more character development than any character in Bleach.

Are we REALLY comparing ATLA to Bleach in terms of Character development? C'mon Son.

Let's examin this. Zuko starts as a tsundere who is angry and want to capture Aang to restore his honor and go back home. He realizes that he is on the wrong side and joins Aang. We all knew that Zuko would join Aang. And no I am not minimizing Zuko's development. Aang developed as well, but these 2 are the only well fleshed out characters in the series. And to say that Avatar is character driven is false. Because the plot was already in place when Aang awaken from his sleep. And that was to free other nations from the the Fire nation's accupation. That was what the plot all about.

On the Bleach side you have Ichigo who thinks that he murdered his mother, and lived years blaming himself and feeling guilty. He realized that he did not do it. Then when he obtained his hollow he was afraid of it. He did not want the despair to take over him. He was even to go bankai. his hollow made despair a lot throught the manga. That was very evident after the Ulquiorra fight. Then in the Fullbring arc he was shown loneliness and despair.
Ichigo has always wanted to live a normal life, but he realized that he needed power those who are close to him. He accepted that he can never be normal. That's a huge development. As huge as Zuko joining Aang.

Not to mention the development, or fleshing out of Rukia, Uryuu, Renji, Orihime, Byakuya, Tousen, Ulquiorra, Chad, Shunsui through war is evil and not fighting fair.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's a plan years in the making and he sounds confident, so I wouldn't assume he doesn't know what he's talking about. For example, one would have to assume he has good reasons to believe he can use the Ten-Tails to cast an infinite Tsukuyomi, even if that was never done before. We're not privy to them, but... well, it's either that, or he's an even bigger clown. Sure, the latter is a possibility, but...


As discussed earlier, his scheming and the war he gleefully declared weren't just unnecessary but actually counter-productive, so I think "idiot" fits the bill. The guy is his own worst enemy.



Get him while he's hyperventilating.

That brings up another point: there isn't any reason at all to assume he's doing anything other than speculating that he could do it since he's never actually seen the 10T - unless you assume he's as old as the Six Paths Sage. (or IS him)

 

[Freshmaker]

I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to default to the assumption that characters are acting irrationally for no reason at all. It's not fair storytelling to assume that whenever a character does something that a Vulcan wouldn't do, it's the result a plot hole.

I wonder if Madara will disagree with Tobi's world vision.

That aside, I still don't understand the payoff for this. Only Kakashi would give a shit. Everyone else would be all like, "Who are you again?"

 

[Wiseblade]

I wonder if Madara will disagree with Tobi's world vision.

That aside, I still don't understand the payoff for this. Only Kakashi would give a shit. Everyone else would be all like, "Who are you again?"

The Payoff isn't for the characters, It's for the readers. The only reason to reveal Tobi as Obito would be to tie Kakashi Gaiden into the main story and so morons on anime forums around the world could scream "I knew it!" and feel better about themselves.

Which is why it's super dumb.

Let's examin this. Zuko starts as a tsundere who is angry and want to capture Aang to restore his honor and go back home. He realizes that he is on the wrong side and joins Aang. We all knew that Zuko would join Aang. And no I am not minimizing Zuko's development. Aang developed as well, but these 2 are the only well fleshed out characters in the series. And to say that Avatar is character driven is false. Because the plot was already in place when Aang awaken from his sleep. And that was to free other nations from the the Fire nation's accupation. That was what the plot all about.

On the Bleach side you have Ichigo who thinks that he murdered his mother, and lived years blaming himself and feeling guilty. He realized that he did not do it. Then when he obtained his hollow he was afraid of it. He did not want the despair to take over him. He was even to go bankai. his hollow made despair a lot throught the manga. That was very evident after the Ulquiorra fight. Then in the Fullbring arc he was shown loneliness and despair.
Ichigo has always wanted to live a normal life, but he realized that he needed power those who are close to him. He accepted that he can never be normal. That's a huge development. As huge as Zuko joining Aang.

Not to mention the development, or fleshing out of Rukia, Uryuu, Renji, Orihime, Byakuya, Tousen, Ulquiorra, Chad, Shunsui through war is evil and not fighting fair.

It's obvious you're far too delusional for me to even bother trying to explain how wrong you are.

 

[Erigu]

I still don't understand the payoff for this. Only Kakashi would give a shit. Everyone else would be all like, "Who are you again?"

Amusingly, based on what little I could decipher from Kishimoto's outline, it would seem the climax of the new movie has the exact same problem:

Spoiler

"OMG the mysterious "Masked Naruto" who's the Jinchûriki of the Nine-Tails in this parallel world is... Uchiha Shisui? ... Wat?"

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

It's obvious you're far too delusional for me to even bother trying to explain how wrong you are.

it's a obvious to me that you don't have an answer so you sling mud at others just to cover up your own ignorance.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Nice discussion, guys. Now allow me to post something completely irrelevant, unimportant, but nonetheless true:

AKB49

This manga's blushes >>> Nisekoi's blushes.

 

[Dresden]

ko-ryu-bu

I had no idea they were this direct about . . . basketball.

 

[Grzi]

The Breath of Fire IV manga has surprisingly good art, being a game adaptation and all.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I wonder if Madara will disagree with Tobi's world vision.

That aside, I still don't understand the payoff for this. Only Kakashi would give a shit. Everyone else would be all like, "Who are you again?"

Well, Naruto wouldn't give a shit who it was other than Sasuke. (DTL: FROM THE FUTURE!) There's literally no character that's a decent candidate that Naruto would either recognize or care about; this means its most likely to be a character that Guy, Kakashi or Bee recognizes. I mean, not to beat a dead horse, but Tobi is Obito. Its been fairly obvious for years.

My assumption is that Orochimaru is also involved in this as I said before; my guess is that he is alive again for the express purpose of explaining Tobi's identity to the readers.

 

[MCD]

The Breath of Fire IV manga has surprisingly good art, being a game adaptation and all.

Is scanlation done yet?

 

[Laughing Banana]

The Breath of Fire IV manga has surprisingly good art, being a game adaptation and all.

Good story too.

Which makes me even angrier that the franchise is being abandoned by Capcom V_V

Is scanlation done yet?

Yes. And it ended quite nicely too, unlike that goddamn Suikoden IV manga.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Well, Naruto wouldn't give a shit who it was other than Sasuke. (DTL: FROM THE FUTURE!) There's literally no character that's a decent candidate that Naruto would either recognize or care about; this means its most likely to be a character that Guy, Kakashi or Bee recognizes. I mean, not to beat a dead horse, but Tobi is Obito. Its been fairly obvious for years.

My assumption is that Orochimaru is also involved in this as I said before; my guess is that he is alive again for the express purpose of explaining Tobi's identity to the readers.

I so want Orochimaru to be the final villain.

 

[Desmond]

Anyone else think Naruto will get his own pseudo-Ten Tails?Just needs the 8 tails' and Shukaku's chakra.


Also, I think Tobi is using Obito's body, but Isn't Obito himself.
Or is Kagami

 

[thetechkid]

I just read the last two pages and I'm disappointed in all of you. Also Biscuit Hammer is getting less funny and more depressing.

 

[ColossalLazy]

Gantz

Da hell was that chapter, so awkward. Is the endgame near?

 

[Dedication Through Light]

Zuko alone had more character development than any character in Bleach.

Are we REALLY comparing ATLA to Bleach in terms of Character development? C'mon Son.

Baffling comparison, since ATLA isnt anywhere near some golden standard of character development.

 

[thetechkid]

Just finished Biscuit Hammer and I liked how it ended. There wasn't any real surprises but it was good.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

Pokemon Reburst 7

This never fails to make me laugh. The ending moment was shocking.

Spoiler

dumb Yappy!

 

[Kurita]

Some people actually read Reburst ? :/

 

[PK Gaming]

Wow, mangaf hasn't gotten in a fight in a looooooong time. Feels good.

Not true at all. Besides there are much larger cast in Bleach with more fleshed out characters.

Nope. Not even going to try justifying my answer here, in this case you're just plain wrong dude.

Baffling comparison, since ATLA isnt anywhere near some golden standard of character development.

Is that supposed to be funny...?

 

[survivor]

Some people actually read Reburst ? :/

It's better than Pokemon Special

Spoiler

come at me Wiseblade

Beelzebub

Pointless flashback is pointless.

 

[Akito]

Beelzebub
Kiddy Himekawa lol
Is it just me or does Beelze's mom looks pretty much like Aoi?

 

[Kurita]

It's better than Pokemon Special

Spoiler

come at me Wiseblade

Oh you...

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Is it just me or does Beelze's mom looks pretty much like Aoi?

A more mature\older version i would say .
Okay chapter i guess but nothing happen .

 

[Tacitus_]

I just read Lord of the Ring. What the flying fuck.

 

[ColossalLazy]

Beelzebub

Kugayama was even more girly in his early years.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

Some people actually read Reburst ? :/

Becoming PKMN was always an interesting notion, even if it doesnt take it as far as my favorite PKMN series (Mystery dungeon), augmenting ones abilities and psudotransforming into PKMN is cool.