excelsiorlef
Member
Umm Owens' shirts are great... Styles' is sweet too. Both look better than Reigns' stuff so yeah I don't buy that Reigns' are selling because they're cooler.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
March Wrasslin' |OT2| The Rollercoaster to WrestleMania XXXIII!
- Thread starter Bluekaveli
- Start date
Umm Owens' shirts are great... Styles' is sweet too. Both look better than Reigns' stuff so yeah I don't buy that Reigns' are selling because they're cooler.
To be fair, those two are supposed to be heels so they shouldn't be selling merchandise anyway.
JesseEwiak
Member
Sure, this is possible. My first counter is there's plenty of horrible merch that people bought by the boatloads because it was from Austin or The Rock.
My second counter is, I mean, this is where I point out that actual stars in the past like Rock & Austin had heavy input in their merch design and argued with Vince about it. Now, you'll counter "but there's no WCW these days for them to go too" and my counter is "then OK these guys don't actually want to risk anything as their too comfortable in 50/50 land forever" which is fine, just don't come to me whinig about how this guy should be pushed as a top guy when he won't do things to fix his position.
Owens stuff is great if you're a hipster 30something wrestling fan and Styles stuff is good if I don't know, you're into Affliction typeface from 20 years ago, but I wouldn't call either of it widely appealing.
excelsiorlef
Member
Owens only became a real heel after the FoF and let's be real AJ's never actually been a heel
No wrestling shirt is wildly appealing... except maybe the nWo...
I'd say those 'vintage' collection tees must be selling well because they started as a cool idea and now are being pumped out en masse.
If Goldberg is truly the biggest draw on RAW at the moment then the obvious problem is that he isn't facing up against Reigns / Rollins / Owens / AJ / someone that casuals don't know to help give them credibility.
It was the biggest mistake they made with such a cool lead up to RR was to give the win to a known quantity. You had eyeballs of lapsed fans and Randy frigging Orton wins. Again.
If they want someone new to draw, they're going to need to be pushed at some point. Someone other than Roman obviously...
When you're Austin or Rock, you can get away with pushing horrible merchandise. These guys are not Austin or Rock. And they aren't even Cena.
I absolutely think people need to speak up more. I think the fact that Punk spoke up, got the ball handed to him, and showed what he could do and succeed at it is something more people need to do. And maybe some of them will in the future. No one knows for sure.
I honestly think even Reigns should speak up and push for a heel turn. If all he's concerned about is making money, which I'm not even saying is a bad thing, even he has to know that there's more money for him out there after a heel turn than with these reactions.
JesseEwiak
Member
To be blunt, Goldberg likely isn't coming back to lose to some guy who wasn't a star when he was around or he doesn't think is a star now. Which you can or can not like, but that's the type of stuff you can do when you're an actual draw.
I actually doubt that. The people who hate Reigns are never going to buy his merch, even if he's a heel. Especially if they book Roman correctly as a top monster heel and have him beat people clean.
Probably true. Would explain a lot.
Fair enough. But let's take that a step further. You have those same ten AJ fans, but among them are two Bayley superfans who will spend $200 on her, an Ambrose fan who will spend $75 on him, and even a stray Roman fan who will spend $50 on him on top of the $50 they all spent on AJ. Tons more money all around.
That's the crux of my argument. WWE can't have a top guy (singular) right now because no one on their current full time roster is going to fit that bill. Not Roman. Not Rollins. Not Ambrose, Styles, Owens, Zayn, Bayley, Banks, New Day, Balor, etc. None of them have that kind of universial appeal. So the should be moving into a more "all hands on deck" where the goal is to make as many strong brands as possible. Give as many different types of people as possible a reason to tune in, even if it's just to see the one act they like.
And that probably is what they're trying to do. But their current approach isn't working (for a number of reasons that extend beyond talent), so it would behoove them to rethink their approach.
Fair enough. But then, Vince and co don't get to act pissy about fans not buying into Reigns. And to their credit, they seem to be leaning into it now.
Absolutely. I'm not arguing that at all. I don't even follow indy wrestling enough to have any particular fondness for those cats; certainly not enough to say they should make up the entirety of WWE's roster.
Again, I'm not desputing that at all. My point isn't that they should only focus on the hardcore, but understand that they're currently in a position where that hardcore audience makes up too sizable a portion of their overall current audience to ignore.
It's more about finding a balance than forsaking one for the other.
I actually doubt that. The people who hate Reigns are never going to buy his merch, even if he's a heel. Especially if they book Roman correctly as a top monster heel and have him beat people clean.
The money is not in Reigns selling merchandise as a heel.
The money is in positioning him as a heel who fans can hate all they want, but down the line will end up cheering and getting behind way more than they ever will if he never turns heel.
The mistake with Reigns has always been that they didn't play the long game with him.
Fans had to sit through years of Punk and Bryan sitting in the midcard before getting main events and it's just handed to Reigns immediately after The Shield breaks up.
Like, what did anyone with a brain think would happen?
That's fair enough.
Edit: Still think they could've done this Berg/Brock program but had KO beat Berg clean at Fastlane.
JesseEwiak
Member
I think we basically agree on everything else, so my only argument against this is there's always a top guy, even when there isn't a top guy. Nobody stands out if everybody is at the same volume.
Obviously yes, they should absolutely book people better. My argument has always been they shouldn't start booking Roman Reigns like Dolph Ziggler. They should book more people like Roman Reigns (except actually better).
But, just by how wrestling works, there has to be somebody the promotion largely revolves around. Right now, it's still Cena.
For instance, you can't have a GoT style sprawling cast because you still need people to buy a ticket to see somebody specifically. I have zero doubt that if GoT was a weekly TV show in front of a live crowd that had to draw a few thousand people in a new city every week, all of the sudden, there'd be more of the dwarf, Jon Snow, and the dragon lady on my TV screen.
No, because the smart fans will just turn on Roman again the second he's a babyface again.
So, they should waste a guy who's already a main event level talent in the ring simply because they've made a previous mistake with previous wrestlers that the fans liked? When you put it like that, it sounds like the fans are the issue here,
I mean, Michael Hayes was in main events when he was 19. There is instances of young stars getting megapushes all throughout wrestling history even when more "deserving" wrestlers got botched pushes.
Not everybody needs to wait until they're 37 and wrestled in the indies for 15 years to be a main eventer.
There was never a universe where it made sense for Owens to beat Goldberg clean. I could maybe buy it if Lesnar absolutely destroyed 'Berg before hand and then Owens got a sneaky dirty pin, but there's no way to make non-hardcore fans buy Owens the way he'd been pushed and his look beating Goldberg, especially after he beat Lesnar.
Also, Lesnar likely doesn't wrestle 'Berg if he loses to Owens clean.
just like when the smart fans just turned on the rock the second he became a babyface again
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Why are we still arguing Reigns? Reigns is literally Rocky Maivia 2.0.
Fans HATED Rock. Not in the Cena or Reigns way, but actually hated and wanted him out of WWE. He was really awful when he burst into WWE and it took him almost 2 years to really get his footing and get fans trust.
At this point I think fans are past that with Reigns and now just booing him to boo, like Cena Sucks & Angle You Suck chants. I don't care what internet fans say, or arena boos during the entrance, but every match people do mimick some of Roman's shit in the ring. People do enjoy Reigns matches, they're never awful and he's a solid worker.
The issue with him is 100% booking and him always in the main spotlight.
Fans HATED Rock. Not in the Cena or Reigns way, but actually hated and wanted him out of WWE. He was really awful when he burst into WWE and it took him almost 2 years to really get his footing and get fans trust.
At this point I think fans are past that with Reigns and now just booing him to boo, like Cena Sucks & Angle You Suck chants. I don't care what internet fans say, or arena boos during the entrance, but every match people do mimick some of Roman's shit in the ring. People do enjoy Reigns matches, they're never awful and he's a solid worker.
The issue with him is 100% booking and him always in the main spotlight.
The Strokes
Banned
That argument can't be applied to Wrestlemania since NXT is treated as a gateway for the indie fans to jump in to WWE. In the indies there's rarely build up and the story (if any) is mostly told during the match.
The whole point of Mania is to have those larger than life moments, with buildups and baggage, story, set-up or whatever coming into the show, that's why I'm more interested in Chris Jericho vs Kevin Owens, despite Y2J being clearly past his prime, than whatever dream match people would like to imagine when pointing to guys like Joe, Finn or Sami, that aren't doing shit.
They've done shit, really awesome shit that I can rewatch whenever I want to, and if the booking has led them to not be a pivotal part of the show, whatever, it's the way it's always been. The card itself isn't so bad to begin with coming up from last year, that's as much as I can expect from the way current WWE handles its talents. I'm invested enough in Jericho vs Owens, Randy vs Bray, the Cruiserweight title match and even whatever bullshit comes from Bork vs Goldberg, but I'm well aware that probably only one of those will be an above average wrestling contest.
Just this week alone you'll find better wrestling, literally, anywhere else, if that's what you're looking. We won't get an actual great Mania again until the people in suits stop pushing guys nobody likes and sets its goddamn mind as to what the future of the company will look like once the part-timers leave.
JesseEwiak
Member
I mean, yes, but they were just vastly outnumbered by the casual fans in the audience who loved everything he did. Look, we all hated the Rocl in various ways. There was a reason that somebody like Scott Keith and other "funny" Internet reviewers started calling him Dwayne in reviews. Austin at least got somewhat of a pass because he'd been held down in WCW.
Look, I'm not saying Reigns doing a heel turn is a good or bad idea creatively. I'm just saying it's not some magic elixir even if booked correctly that'll convince a large number of smart fans he's not the Great Satan who took away Daniel Bryan's 2nd Wrestlemania Main Event! I mean, it's been almost a decade and people still bring up Cena winning the Nexus elimination match like it was the one thing that killed the Nexus forever.
Again, WM has always been the show to appeal to the causal fans. This is the event that started w/ Mr. T in the main event and both Liberace and Billy Martin being involved.
Just saw RAW
I still find thay JeriKO built super weak.
I'll be so pissed if Joe helps Owens.. Come on.. The guy didn't have a match by himself in 8 months... And Joe has nothing to do in that shit, nothing. They're ruining the story between them.
That mania match will be a glorified RAW match.. that makes me sad.
Also i can't buy Owens shirts cause they are horrible for skinny people. I mean seriously i would look like a rapist with a sleeveless shirt.
I still find thay JeriKO built super weak.
I'll be so pissed if Joe helps Owens.. Come on.. The guy didn't have a match by himself in 8 months... And Joe has nothing to do in that shit, nothing. They're ruining the story between them.
That mania match will be a glorified RAW match.. that makes me sad.
Also i can't buy Owens shirts cause they are horrible for skinny people. I mean seriously i would look like a rapist with a sleeveless shirt.
Tbh Ambrose was selling more than everyone around latter 2014 and usually whenever he gets a new shirt he does a lot. His leather jacket for example, when that debuted he was outselling everyone for a good while. Also reports came out that Reigns (the A show) was pulling the same tickets as Ambrose (the B show) back when Cena, Rollins and Orton were gone and mind you this was around 1 year ago before Ambrose was even WWE Champion. so Ambrose could hold the load. He's just not their pick. That in no way is counting guys like Styles who's a draw these days as well. Styles sells merch, he brings in tickets and he's liked. I'd say with AJ his biggest thing is his age but that's not to say we can't have multiple "guys" or anything. Have Styles, Ambrose, Rollins and Owens hold the torch on their brands for 6 months and constantly switch out. That's how it should be. With that said SD has Wyatt with the belt so it's ok right now, it's Raw that's the issue.
But this is WWE so it doesn't work that way. They wanna put it all on one guy.
The Strokes
Banned
AJ's gloves must be on of the best selling things in the company right now.
The Strokes
Banned
excelsiorlef
Member
Umm Owens' shirts aren't sleeveless on the WWE shop, I think they just cut off the sleeves of a normal shirt for Owens or print special ones for him.
See sleeves
But even on GoT, you absolutely see more of Tyrion, Jon Snow, and Dany. Arya too. Some characters clearly get more focus than others based on fan reaction.
To use another example of what I'm talking about, look at Marvel's film universe. Iron Man and Captain America are clearly the lynchpins of the whole thing, but their success doesn't come at the expense of ignoring the B-tier characters. The latter are still featured prominently, allowed to appeal to people the first two may not, even while Marvel builds the big plot points and Avengers movies around whatever IM and Cap are doing.
And they adjust based on audience reaction too. Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man doing better than we thought? Get sequels going asap. People not responding to Hulk much as a solo character? Limit him to appearances in other films. We can't pay people to give a fuck about the Inhumans? Cancel their movie and ship them to an ABC limited series. If they took the WWE's philosophy, they would have stubbornly stuck to what they originally wanted to do and probably been worse off for it.
WWE is in a transitional period right now. I agree they will eventually need a new top guy, but as Cena so likes to remind us, he isn't gone yet. Right now, while they still have him, they can afford to push more people like Roman as you said. Diversify and build those brands. At least until a proper successor - that is, someone who pops rating, has mainstream appeal, still young enough in their career to be around a while, appeals to a wide range of people, and gets over organically so as not to upset the smarks - rises to the top. Trying to force it with Reigns - or anyone else, for that matter - isn't gonna cut it.
excelsiorlef
Member
You and me both...
And then they bitch about having to watch a lengthy Mania as if they're obliged ... just don't watch or skip the pre-show or whatever...
hey don't be baffled at my illness
at least if they keep pushing reigns the territory will DIE and i won't have to watch anymore
Hell, I get the addiction illness through putting up with crap as I'm playing Mass Effect, but even I managed to break free of stepping in the turd in the street that is Raw.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I've started to just read re-caps and watch YouTube clips because of how redundant it's become.
Umm Owens' shirts aren't sleeveless on the WWE shop, I think they just cut off the sleeves of a normal shirt for Owens or print special ones for him.
See sleeves
Ha nice, last time i checked i only saw sleeveless shirts.
That KO mania 2 shirt he's wearing is horribly tailored by the way. Makes him looks lame.
JesseEwiak
Member
If that's how it should be, why hasn't any successful wrestling promotion ever done that?
Also, the Ambrose thing is a misnomer. What happened was that yes, the leather jacket was the #1 item for that day or weekend or whatever, but there was also tons of Reigns merch right below that.
Plus, if Reigns & Ambrose are drawing the same, why not push the guy you like? In Vince's case, that's Reigns.
excelsiorlef
Member
...
Lol
Sorry but lol
Literally nothing you've ever said is positive... it's the same shirt cut he always wears...
And dunno where you were looking all of KO's shirts have sleeves
http://shop.wwe.com/kevin-owens/
JesseEwiak
Member
Here's my argument - the current day WWE has no GotG's or Ant-Mans. They also don't have any Iron Man's. They have a bunch of Thors - not terrible, but not great either, and kind of bland while lacking in a major way.
I've said lot of positive things about Owens don't worry!
British Monsoon
Member
Watch this friends, amazing segment from Georgia '81 - Gary Hart transfers the mystical power to control The Great Kabuki over to Roddy Piper;
https://twitter.com/MrLARIATO/status/846658585224511488
Also, have a gif of the Maniac Mark Lewin being weird;
https://twitter.com/MrLARIATO/status/846658585224511488
Also, have a gif of the Maniac Mark Lewin being weird;
What people forget is WWF brought in the ECW talent and introduced quite a bit of their fanbase to the show. They killed him before the regular WWF audience did. HBK was a vanilla babyface and people saw through his shit in 96/97 and he was booed outside the female fans. Same deal.
Rocky went heel 9 months into his career. WWE have botched Reigns hard and none of it is his fault. Creative is at its worst and it's why guys like Big Dave doesn't want to return.
Yeahhhhhh
TarpitCarnivore
Member
And even then it still took a bit of him being on the back burner to really get going. When he went to NOD he was sitting behind Farooq and wasn't the main focal point.
Here's my argument: WWE has talent who can do that, but no one is willing to run up against the boss. IIRC New Day kind of did this to help steer their direction instead of allowing it to remain this gospel style stable.
Watch this friends, amazing segment from Georgia '81 - Gary Hart transfers the mystical power to control The Great Kabuki over to Roddy Piper;
https://twitter.com/MrLARIATO/status/846658585224511488
Also, have a gif of the Maniac Mark Lewin being weird;
The conviction they put into these angles never fails to astound me.
Almost as good as TEE JOE KHAN from Memphis.
Boots, are you aware of any modern worker that has really good looking punches? I was watching some Funk and Lawler stuff last night and it's not exactly my cup of tea (Lawler especially) but baw gawd could they throw incredible looking hands.
British Monsoon
Member
Increasingly it seems like it's a lost art, tbh - Juice has some pretty good punches, but they're far more theatrical than you'd ever see guys throw in the territory era. Tyler Bate does a good one too, but again it's rather theatrical. Dory Funk Jr. still throws a better right hand than most and he's ancient.
It's not just punches though, watching Georgia tapes and I saw some jobber do a bulldog on Robert Gibson that was better than practically any modern usage of the move I can recall. Wrestlers I think are too obsessed with making things look smooth, and also forget that they have to sell the move they're doing almost as much as the guy taking it.
HazySaiyan
Banned
This, I don't understand why you'd spend 3 hours every week watching something you don't even like. That's 3 hours you could be spent doing something else.
You are the expert. Now that I'm having a taste of your life I don't know how you do it!
British Monsoon
Member
Welp, Dave reckons WWE UK and WOS Wrestling talent won't be able to mix on other shows - that sounds like a right headache for the bookers.
Well, Dragon Gate superfan here so I'm all about that smoothness
I do think someone who ran an ex-boxer/boxing gimmick with super looking worked punches would get over because such a thing is so rare nowadays. Tyler's punch fakeout is a pretty cool looking spot that gets a reaction, as does his flurry.Modern bulldogs really do suck, they look feather soft. Headlock drivers look pretty bad as well (One Percenter/Skull Crushing Finale) compared to that one guy from JCP whose name I forget right now who did it. Although Paul Tracey does a really nasty looking version of it nowadays.
Ideally turning Reigns heel would work simply because the fans would buy into his character and he would be more comfortable in the role. Reigns has gotten better overall in the ring and on the mic, but in doing so, he's let a cockiness and a swagger show out which usually lends itself to a heel character. I think he'd feel pretty good about not having to worry about navigating boos or appealing to the crowd and hoping they might cheer him.
FlammableD
Banned
I was worried about that. Does seem like a ballache, for PROGRESS that's what, Rampage, Zack Gibson, Mastiff, Ligero and Roberts gone. ICW might have it worse.