• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

March Wrasslin' |OT2| The Rollercoaster to WrestleMania XXXIII!

Syder

Member
Ehhhhh Rollins is arguable even less likeable and a worse talker than Reigns overall... he just got the benefit of not being the one who "fucked over" Daniel Bryan in the eyes of the fanbase. Rollins is always gonna be stuck in that second tier babyface...
Regardless of how good/bad a talker Seth is (I think even though Reigns [and everyone else] has shit material he's still way behind Seth). It's not really Seth's fault he was mega-pushed as a heel and his face turn was botched so bad. I mean, Seth has that all important good-will with fans because he's an incredible performer, with crowd-pleasing moves, and he's done indies/NXT (injury comebacks get you over too), and I don't see how Roman has anymore mainstream crossover than Seth. They're both athletic, muscular, good-looking guys that have some level of experience with 'acting'.

Also, if you consider Seth a second-tier babyface, what's Sami? third, fourth tier? I'm not saying you're wrong about Rollins never being a GOAT face, I'm not convinced either, but WWE have proven that, injury-permitting, they're willing to push this guy to the moon.

Balor who the fuck knows... I think it is way too early to say that.
The irony is Bálor is a much better heel than he is a face but he'll still do exceptionally well as a good guy because he has good-will with hardcore wrestling fans because of his time in Japan and NXT, furthermore he also has mainstream appeal with the Demon gimmick... and being so goddamn attractive.
 

Adree

Member
I sold out and got a Switch. This Zelda better be fucking amazing. I already hate having to get used to nintendo style button mapping.
 

Syder

Member
I want a goldberg shirt.
Found one.

81W58S--nSL._UX342_.jpg
 

Caderfix

Member
I sold out and got a Switch. This Zelda better be fucking amazing. I already hate having to get used to nintendo style button mapping.

It is pretty good, but the lack of ng+ is a major bummer for me :( If you only play games once or at least not right after beating it the first time, I think you'll love it.
 
Regardless of how good/bad a talker Seth is (I think even though Reigns [and everyone else] has shit material he's still way behind Seth). It's not really Seth's fault he was mega-pushed as a heel and his face turn was botched so bad. I mean, Seth has that all important good-will with fans because he's an incredible performer, with crowd-pleasing moves, and he's done indies/NXT (injury comebacks get you over too), and I don't see how Roman has anymore mainstream crossover than Seth. They're both athletic, muscular, good-looking guys that have some level of experience with 'acting'.

Also, if you consider Seth a second-tier babyface, what's Sami? third, fourth tier? I'm not saying you're wrong about Rollins never being a GOAT face, I'm not convinced either, but WWE have proven that, injury-permitting, they're willing to push this guy to the moon.

Sami is a reliable hand

Yes Rollins got booked wrong, so has Reigns ten times more wrong and yet here we are with Reigns still pushing out more merch than Rollins.

Reigns shouldn't be #1 in Raw either but they're literally in Cena part 2 (only worse) right now in that he's still the best they got...

I think,and this is key, they play to the heat instead of around it. It'll work. He's been great with Taker thus far.

Reigns might become a great guy to put against heels you want to turn face.


And Balor is going to be good... if we're lucky he does take off and thus we do get full hewl Reigns.
 

Adree

Member
If I hadn't been playing Andromeda this week I'd be amazed and super pissed at a marquee game having serious framerate issues just running around the grass docked right out of the cave you start in but my triple a expectations have been permanently lowered by Bioware.
 

Caderfix

Member
Ultimately both were annoying until pretty much... right now.

Rollins has been just as annoying as a face as Reigns for months. They are both now coming into something good. Reigns as an asshole and Rollins as a self doubting remorseful face.

To me, Roman was never annoying, just boring with no presence or intensity. And I still feel the same way.

As for merch, Rollins has been a chickenshit heel or injured for the better part of the last two years. He didn't have much of a chance to win the casuals, but still did somewhat.
 

Toki767

Member
You guys who keep harping on Reigns' merchandise sales are crazy if you think another person on the roster couldn't sell just as much as Reigns if they were given the same push and constantly influx of new merchandise.
 
You guys who keep harping on Reigns' merchandise sales are crazy if you think another person on the roster couldn't sell just as much as Reigns if they were given the same push and constantly influx of new merchandise.

Dean Ambrose came pretty close to the same push...


WWE absolutely has a problem (and has for almost 10 years now) creating new superstars.

They create a lot of good stars but few superstars.
 

Adree

Member
The controller in the grip is surprisingly comfortable. Maybe I can avoid buying that overpriced Pro controller for awhile.
 
They can't have their meta 2.0 kayfabe bullshit with Reigns while still sometimes portraying him as Cena jr. People aren't reacting to anything exclusive that Roman is doing for the most part, it's the booking that's getting the heat, Roman is just the patsy. Almost anyone could've​ been in the spot Roman is in now if they got pushed before proving themselves and in the middle of Bryan's rise. Having people react to your poorly written show/characters shouldn't be getting spun into "oh we're just playing you marks". If Rocky Mavia come out today they'd be trying to spin his reactions too and we'd never get The Rock.
 

jurgen

Member
Yeah didn't reports say that Reigns is the top name for the draft pick so he can "feud with strong heels like Miz and Corbin?" or something? I think it makes sense.

The prospect of Miz cutting promos on Talking Smack against Reigns sounds like too good of a prospect.
 

cordy

Banned
The prospect of Miz cutting promos on Talking Smack against Reigns sounds like too good of a prospect.

Yeah PWI said it since Cena's leaving for a bit but also apparently Styles might head to Raw (which looks like it'll happen) so yeah I guess Reigns might head to SD.
 
Yeah didn't reports say that Reigns is the top name for the draft pick so he can "feud with strong heels like Miz and Corbin?" or something? I think it makes sense.

And Miz is a guy Reigns can beat the fuck out of and it'll work out...

Reigns on Smackdown is a perfect idea.

And with Styles on Raw we get The Club again... and if they ever want to turn them all face they can put them with Balor and we'd get a super Club.
 
Good morning international grapple fans!

Did Berg and Bork have a classic belt tug of war last night? I can't wait for their scientific five star classic on Sunday.

*I suddenly feel invested in Sportsentertania Sunshine after benefitting from the WWE's papering of the online attendance with free network.
 
I just got past the Grandpataker/Ramen segment so... I know it fits the Roman fan demo but these women were plants right?

Y2jNwgS.gif




The ULTIMATE THRILL RIDE!
 

daemissary

Member
I just got past the Grandpataker/Ramen segment so... I know it fits the Roman fan demo but these women were plants right?

Y2jNwgS.gif




The ULTIMATE THRILL RIDE!

I love the two guys in hoodies behind them just no selling the shit out of Roman.

Roman's booking in the past has been awful and has actively made me want to turn off the show. I'm hoping that HHH quote is just him defending Vince's nonsense.

I think Roman has actually been great in the build up to this Taker match because he's slowly been going more and more heel. All of that is lost if it doesn't lead to some character development and a real life heel turn though. I hope he goes over Taker clean, Taker offers a sign of respect and Roman just says "Go home old man."

That's literally enough.
 

ReiGun

Member

The "it doesn't matter if people are cheering or booing as long as they're reacting!" thing they use for Reigns and previously used for Cena feels like such PR bs.I don't believe for a second they don't want these guys they're building their company around to be universially loved and getting the desired reactions like Hogan, Austin, and Rock in their heyday. You can't tell me they weren't looking at Punk post-pipebomb or Daniel Bryan at the height of the "Yes Movement" and wanting desperately for their chosen guys to get those reactions.

Hell, you don't even need to go back; you can't pay a crowd to boo AJ Styles nowadays. Homie is loved universially: women, kids, casuals, smarks. You can't tell me they don't want that for Roman, no matter what they say to the contrary.

Obviously, anything is better than apathy. But the whole "we're fine with a half and half reaction" is so obviously them settling because they can't get the reactions they want.'

The prospect of Miz cutting promos on Talking Smack against Reigns sounds like too good of a prospect.

As great as this sounds, I would like it if Miz's best promos weren't banished to the Smackdown post-show anymore. Let dude loose on someone on the main program. We've seen what it can do for a feud; Miz shitting on him got Dolph Ziggler over in 2016. Dolph Ziggler.
 
The "it doesn't matter if people are cheering or booing as long as they're reacting!" thing they use for Reigns and previously used for Cena feels like such PR bs.I don't believe for a second they don't want these guys they're building their company around to be universially loved and getting the desired reactions like Hogan, Austin, and Rock in their heyday. You can't tell me they weren't looking at Punk post-pipebomb or Daniel Bryan at the height of the "Yes Movement" and wanting desperately for their chosen guys to get those reactions.

Hell, you don't even need to go back; you can't pay a crowd to boo AJ Styles now. Homie is loved universially: women, kids, casuals, smarks. You can't tell me they don't want that for Roman, no matter what they say to the contrary.

Obviously, anything is better than apathy. But the whole "we're fine with a half and half reaction" is so obviously them settling because they can't get the reactions they want.

The question isn't how great a reaction somebody gets in the arena, the question is how much money is made as a result of that reaction. Yes, AJ Styles gets a reaction, but does that effect ratings, house show numbers, merch sales, or network subscriptions? Same thing with everybody else.

The truth is, somebody like Ambrose or AJ Styles or Finn Balor may get a more positive reaction inside the arena, but make the WWE less money because they appeal less to certain demographics or they have no hook to the casual fan.

Punk got massive pops...and didn't move ratings or PPV buys. Bryan got massive pops...and didn't move ratings or explode network subs. Punk & Bryan were insanely popular among the people still watching, but held no appeal outside of that community.

Now, that hardcore base will turn against anybody who hasn't got the right pedigree or isn't perceived as being "held down" by the WWE.

The truth is, the next big mainstream star might not be Roman, but it's likely to be somebody the hardcore Internet fans don't like, just like they didn't like Hogan, Austin/The Rock (I was there, we all thought their promos got same-y and all his matches were kick punch affairs), and John Cena.

So, yeah, would they prefer a total positive reaction for Roman? Sure. But, they'll take this as a second option, since there's nobody obviously better on the horizon.
 

Rimfya

Banned
You guys who keep harping on Reigns' merchandise sales are crazy if you think another person on the roster couldn't sell just as much as Reigns if they were given the same push and constantly influx of new merchandise.
Doubled with that the artwork for Reigns mercy, branding, video graphics etc all look more detailed and bigger budget than anything else.
 
When did hardcore fans ever turn on Austin?

RSPW and the like already began to turn on him by '98 because his matches "sucked", all his promos were the "same bullshit", and every show ended with Austin stunnering somebody. Now, none of those things are exactly true, but the Internet wrestling fan has never been one for accuracy.

It didn't help when it came out that he refused to work with Jarrett or Billy Gunn.

Again, the actual hardcore fanbase was a much smaller percentage back then. I will happily admit the casual fans loved Austin the whole time, but they weren't on the Internet. Except to maybe look for nude photos of Sable.

I think that's what people get confused by, especially newer fans. Shows in 'smark areas' had smart fans there, but it wasn't completely smart fans there like it is today or would be today if the WWE was more popular. If you go back even to 2005 or 2007 shows, the fanbase is more "markish" than today as fat as reacting to heels and faces (outside of Cena) "correctly", no matter the indy pedigree of said wrestler.

You guys who keep harping on Reigns' merchandise sales are crazy if you think another person on the roster couldn't sell just as much as Reigns if they were given the same push and constantly influx of new merchandise.

Which is of course why every top babyface has the same exact merch sales, because fake fans like kids and women will buy merch for whomever the WWE tells them too, right?
 

Adree

Member
I didn't appreciate Austin in 98 because I lived in the south and hated rednecks. Looking back I can see how awesome he was.

Climbing stuff on the Plateau seems fine. I expected it to be way worse.
 

ReiGun

Member
The question isn't how great a reaction somebody gets in the arena, the question is how much money is made as a result of that reaction. Yes, AJ Styles gets a reaction, but does that effect ratings, house show numbers, merch sales, or network subscriptions? Same thing with everybody else.

The truth is, somebody like Ambrose or AJ Styles or Finn Balor may get a more positive reaction inside the arena, but make the WWE less money because they appeal less to certain demographics or they have no hook to the casual fan.

Punk got massive pops...and didn't move ratings or PPV buys. Bryan got massive pops...and didn't move ratings or explode network subs. Punk & Bryan were insanely popular among the people still watching, but held no appeal outside of that community.

Now, that hardcore base will turn against anybody who hasn't got the right pedigree or isn't perceived as being "held down" by the WWE.

The truth is, the next big mainstream star might not be Roman, but it's likely to be somebody the hardcore Internet fans don't like, just like they didn't like Hogan, Austin/The Rock (I was there, we all thought their promos got same-y and all his matches were kick punch affairs), and John Cena.

So, yeah, would they prefer a total positive reaction for Roman? Sure. But, they'll take this as a second option, since there's nobody obviously better on the horizon.
Agreed. I'm not saying they aren't also looking PPV buyrates, ratings, etc. But if the topic of conversation is reactions, there's no way it doesn't bother them that their top stars don't get the desired reactions even among the people actually watching.

However much money they're making off Roman now, they have to understand they'd be making much more if people actually liked the guy. Those other stars you mentioned may appeal to fewer demogrpahics, but looking at that from a different perspective, it would behoove them to stop trying to have one guy who appeals to everyone, at least for the time being. If you have Bayley, Ambrose, Roman, Styles, Rollins, and The New Day, and all of them appeal to different demos in different ways, then you try to move them all into positions to maximize profit from those demos while covering each other. At least until you have someone that can genuinely appeal to everyone (and is also around all the time, unlike Cena [who I'm still not convinced has near the universial appeal of a Rock or Austin, but for the sake of argument, I'll go with it]).

Because let's be clear, the last person to legit pop a rating on Raw, at least to my knowledge, is Goldberg. A nostalgia act from the 90's who has only wrestled, what, 3 matches. Roman isn't moving the needle anymore than anyone else on the show, and the "mixed" reaction to him is certainly a part of that.

And yes, the internet will likely hate whoever the next guy/girl (cause I think we're past the point where the next big star can only be a dude) is. That's what internet communities do: hate anything the "filthy casuals" like. The WWE's current problem is that their audience has dwindled to the point that the internet fans are filling up far more of those arenas than they did when Rock and Austin were out. So they can't just ignore them, because they're the ones in the arenas, buying the tickets and merch, and booing the fuck out of Roman Reigns.

You can only forsake the hardcore for the casuals when the latter greatly outnumber the former. And WWE has so little cache in current mainstream pop culture, and (relatively speaking) so few eyes on the product, they're not really there.
 

Caderfix

Member
Which is of course why every top babyface has the same exact merch sales, because fake fans like kids and women will buy merch for whomever the WWE tells them too, right?


No, and the post you quoted doesn't claim that. The argument is that with the same focus from the company other superstars could pull equal or even better numbers.

Edit: By others I don't mean any.
 
I was on the internet back then and I don't remember there being a large dislike of Austin's work back in 98 or 99 by the "IWC", what there was there was like a minority of a minority, most "got it" and knew Austin could do more when it came to the change in Austin's wrestling style at the very least. Now the Rock, the Rock got a lot of shit about being repetitive and his ring work. I don't remember there being enough Billy Gunn fans to actually care about Austin not wanting to put him over either because Billy sucked anyway.



EDIT: Looking through RSPW for the first time in a million years, holy shit it was mark and gimmick poster central back then, just like here now. Can't wait until I come across posters advertising/discussing their e-feds.
 

Anth0ny

Member
who cares what the nerds thought when wrestling was pulling in 5.0s on two different shows on a monday night


we're right today with our complaints because there's a clear downward trend in business. keep pushing reigns as the main event guy if you keep wanting 2.0 ratings. he's not a draw to casuals or hardcore fans. figure it out.
 

Adree

Member
After throwing bombs into the wind trying to take out a moblin tower and succeeding in blowing it up as well as myself I think I finally understand the appeal of Zelda's tremendously silly physics nonsense.
 
Agreed. I'm not saying they aren't also looking PPV buyrates, ratings, etc. But if the topic of conversation is reactions, there's no way it doesn't bother them that their top stars don't get the desired reactions even among the people actually watching.

I honestly think it bothered them back in 2007. I don't think it really does today. They've basically began to shrug

However much money they're making off Roman now, they have to understand they'd be making much more if people actually liked the guy. Those other stars you mentioned may appeal to fewer demogrpahics, but looking at that from a different perspective, it would behoove them to stop trying to have one guy who appeals to everyone, at least for the time being. If you have Bayley, Ambrose, Roman, Styles, Rollins, and The New Day, and all of them appeal to different demos in different ways, then you try to move them all into positions to maximize profit from those demos while covering each other. At least until you have someone that can genuinely appeal to everyone (and is also around all the time, unlike Cena [who I'm still not convinced has near the universial appeal of a Rock or Austin, but for the sake of argument, I'll go with it]).

Here's the thing - just to use a very simple example. If you have 10 people, and if you have Roman Reigns, who six people love and will spend $100 in merch/meet and greets/etc. on and whom four people hate and will spend $0, that sounds bad.

But, what if the replacement is say, AJ Styles, who everybody likes, but all 10 of those people will only spent $50 a piece on. So you have a more univerally loved figure, but you makes less money on them.

Finally, I think that's what they are doing. Not in the most efficient way, but if you really think that the fact Roman has been largely put against Internet darlings isn't a plan, I don't know what to tell you.

Because let's be clear, the last person to legit pop a rating on Raw, at least to my knowledge, is Goldberg. A nostalgia act from the 90's who has only wrestled, what, 3 matches. Roman isn't moving the needle anymore than anyone else on the show, and the "mixed" reaction to him is certainly a part of that.

Sure, but if I'm Vince, that's an argument to keep pushing the guy I want if nobody is popping ratings or moving merch. Part of the reason why Austin's push got elevated is his quarter hours started going up and he started to move more merch than expected.

I know people like to quote that silly CM Punk like about a millionaire who should be a billionaire, but if Kevin Owens, AJ Styles, or Sami Zayn were actually popping ratings outside of normal or having massive merch numbers, they would get pushed ahead of Reigns.

And yes, the internet will likely hate whoever the next guy/girl (cause I think we're past the point where the next big star can only be a dude) is. That's what internet communities do: hate anything the "filthy casuals" like. The WWE's current problem is that their audience has dwindled to the point that the internet fans are filling up far more of those arenas than they did when Rock and Austin were out. So they can't just ignore them, because they're the ones in the arenas, buying the tickets and merch, and booing the fuck out of Roman Reigns.

They can't ignore them, but you can leave them sated by signing all their indy favorites because the WWE is the only place where you can actually make money.

You can only forsake the hardcore for the casuals when the latter greatly outnumber the former. And WWE has so little cache in current mainstream pop culture, and (relatively speaking) so few eyes on the product, they're not really there.

You also can't focus only on the hardcore fan and not book to try to bring in the causal fan. After all, if the WWE had listened to the Internet in 1996, they would've fired The Rock and I don't know, put Marc Mero in the main event or something.

The truth is, the WWF got lucky that they were able to slowly change the product in '97 enough by having fan favorites like Bret & Shawn in prominent positions while they pushed new people to the top and shifted the product.

No, and the post you quoted doesn't claim that. The argument is that with the same focus from the company other superstars could pull equal or even better numbers.

Except, outside of the conspiracy theories of the Internet, if people were selling more merch, they'd get more merch. I mean, look at The New Day. They get a new piece of crap every other week. Because it sells.

If Dean Ambrose, AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, or whomever were actually selling an outsized bit of merch based on their push, the WWE would shift things. But, they aren't, so they don't.

who cares what the nerds thought when wrestling was pulling in 5.0s on two different shows on a monday night


we're right today with our complaints because there's a clear downward trend in business. keep pushing reigns as the main event guy if you keep wanting 2.0 ratings. he's not a draw to casuals or hardcore fans. figure it out.

I've continually said, Reigns may not be the guy, but neither is Rollins, Styles, Balor, Owens, Zayn, or Cesaro. They'll be riding the ship down to 2.0 as well if they were the top guy.
 

gun_haver

Member
Gotta say the Roman complaints don't really feel as imperative when his total exposure is like 20 minutes of a 3 hour show of 5 hours of WWE tv a week. Yeah, he'll be back in the main event at some point, but he's been in the upper-midcard and lost plenty of matches pretty much since his suspension. There's even a prospect of a heel turn in the near future.

Seems like people are...fixated on him.
 

Adree

Member
Gotta say the Roman complaints don't really feel as imperative when his total exposure is like 20 minutes of a 3 hour show of 5 hours of WWE tv a week. Yeah, I know he'll be back in the main event, but he's been in the upper-midcard more or less and lost plenty of matches pretty much since his suspension, and there's a prospect of a heel turn in the near future.

Seems like people are...fixated on him.

I find Roman as a character tremendously boring but he's pretty damned solid in the ring. I never skip his PPV matches and they almost never disappoint. Superman Punch is a shit set up for his finisher though.
 

Caderfix

Member
Except, outside of the conspiracy theories of the Internet, if people were selling more merch, they'd get more merch. I mean, look at The New Day. They get a new piece of crap every other week. Because it sells.

If Dean Ambrose, AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, or whomever were actually selling an outsized bit of merch based on their push, the WWE would shift things. But, they aren't, so they don't.

Not necessarily. If I was building the main product of my company I'd keep investing mainly on it because I believe that long term it'll bring more benefits. I'd want it to pay off as soon as possible, so letting the main project stay in the shadow of secondary ones is not something I'd do. I would invest on the rest as well, sure, but the main focus would still be that main project, even if currently it is not what brings the most revenue.

100% changing focus is something that happens only when you lose hope on what you've been working on or when the success and longevity of something else proves to be bigger than the full potential of you previous golden egg. Eg: A mix of Daniel Bryan's rise with Miz's reliability/longevity.
 

Toki767

Member
There are a bunch of reasons why someone's merchandise might not sell. Even if they're liked by everyone.

Take Bryan for example. Ratings went up every time he was on TV but his merchandise didn't sell.

Why? Because his shirt designs sucked. They were trying to make shirts aimed at kids with a picture of a man with a beard on the front.

Thankfully for him, he finally got shirts that said "Yes" on it and merchandise sales picked up.

Styles, Owens, Ambrose, Zayn, etc... all need a massive re-design in their merchandise. None of the shirts for them look cool for kids or adults.
 
Top Bottom