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[Mahonay]

When I say "UCE", ya'll say "Oh"

UCE!

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

When people say they want Roman to turn heel, they're less saying "He's a boring good guy, I want him to be a bad guy!" and more "His character needs to change."

WWE gives far more freedom to their heels than their faces when it comes to... being entertaining. Look no further than the Usos face run vs heel run.

Roman is clearly a babyface and scripted like a babyface. It needs to stop.

No pure babyface comes out to say they're going to bury the Undertaker forever. They're intending for us to pick our side in the Taker match (#TeamRoman), as we've done with Roman vs Styles, Owens, Jericho, Rusev, and Rollins (for some reason these booked opponents for the last year are faces to nearly all of GAF and this demographic, like they know or something...).

 

[Man God]

When the fuck was hairplug hogan? I don't remember this at all.

A great match between Hogan and Macho Man.

 

[Sephzilla]

No babyface comes out to say they're going to bury the Undertaker forever. They're intending for us to pick our side in the Taker match (#TeamRoman), as we've done with Roman vs Styles, Owens, Jericho, Rusev, and Rollins (for some reason these booked opponents for the last year are faces to nearly all of GAF and this demographic).

Did you forget about the two HBK matches?

 

[Kaladin]

Did you forget about the two HBK matches?

HBK could walk the line though.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Did you forget about the two HBK matches?

That match where people picked their favorite and who Cole implied was face or heel didn't matter like it hasn't since 1996? I know.

 

[Sephzilla]

HBK could walk the line though.

Yeah. But the two HBK/Taker matches at Mania were stories about two babyface characters clashing.

That match where people picked their favorite and who Cole implied was face or heel didn't matter like it hasn't since 1996? I know.

Remember wrestlemania 25 where they had a babyface Shawn Michaels out on a quest to destroy babyface Undertaker's undefeated streak, and then two matches later we had babyface HHH fighting sinister heel Randy Orton on the same PPV?

Face/Heel shit absolutely still exists in modern WWE

 

[wild wild rice]

Otunga's attempt to sell this catch phrase was so weak.

"American Alpha think they can mess with the Usos when they're on their day one ish? Man!"

 

[Kaladin]

Yeah. But the two HBK/Taker matches at Mania were stories about two babyface characters clashing.

HBK went kind of heelish, IMO, especially with the white suit entrance mocking Taker's classic attire.

 

[Heroman]

Let talk about Okada vs Shibata, and how hype that match is going to be.

 

[ReiGun]

Forget Roman. I would just like to take a moment to appreciate that while lesser tag teams are killing themselves in ladder matches or jobbing in preshow battle royals, my brehs the NEW DAY will be collecting a Mania paycheck while likely not taking a single bump.

#BlackExcellence #NewDayRocks

 

[Sephzilla]

HBK went kind of heelish, IMO, especially with the white suit entrance mocking Taker's classic attire.

To be honest I've kind of lost track of what he's arguing about since he's contradicted himself so much and shifted the goal posts so goddamn far

 

[Kornflayx]

These last pages have been the worst shit since the Daniel Bryan wars of 2014

 

[Mahonay]

Otunga's attempt to sell this catch phrase was so weak.

"American Alpha think they can mess with the Usos when they're on their day one ish? Man!"

It's a good thing Usos have gotten themselves over. If they had to depend on Otunga they'd be fuuuuuuuuucked.

I feel like Otunga says things that will actively make the viewer think less of what's going on in the ring. Just takes a big paint brush of LAME and makes everything worse.

 

[Bronx-Man]

We keep trying to redefine face and heel as a defense for why our memes faves suck, but the bottom line is most just suck at their roles. But that doesn't mean faces and heel are radically changed up or extinct. Look at how much heat Miz gets or how many cheers Bayley or Sami Zayn get

Spoiler

back in NXT

.

There is no "new heel" or "anti-hero" bullshit. There's people that suck at being good guys and bad guys, & there's people that excel at it.

 

[Sweeney Tom]

To be honest I've kind of lost track of what he's arguing about since he's contradicted himself so much and shifted the goal posts so goddamn far

Didn't he do the same in the ratings thread before it closed

He coming for us now? Someone stop him!!!

 

[Sephzilla]

We keep trying to redefine face and heel as a defense for why our memes faves suck, but the bottom line is most just suck at their roles. But that doesn't mean faces and heel are radically changed up or extinct. Look at how much heat Miz gets or how many cheers Bayley or Sami Zayn get

Spoiler

back in NXT

.

There is no "new heel" or "anti-hero" bullshit. There's people that suck at being good guys and bad guys, & there's people that excel at it.

This. WWE absolutely still conforms to traditional face/heel stuff (probably more than they did in the Attitude Era) and fans still want that, the problem is that the writing and the talent suck at making the faces cheerable and the heels booable and the end result is that the fans have had enough and are simply cheering for someone who can simply put on a goddamn entertaining performance regardless of alignment.

 

[bean breath]

These last pages have been the worst shit since the Daniel Bryan wars of 2014

If you wanna make the thread a better place

Take a look at yourself and then make a change

 

[Sephzilla]

welcome back friend bean breath!

Have you heard about the revived GAF Wrestling Federation?

 

[Heroman]

Omega hasn't won the belt in the US yet

He might if they do Okada vs Omega 2 at the g1 USA.

 

[Man God]

Watching Smackdown now...I love this Shane AJ bit!

 

[avengers23]

If you wanna make the thread a better place

Take a look at yourself and then make a change

You forgot to say, "Jack."

 

[Mahonay]

If you wanna make the thread a better place

Take a look at yourself and then make a change

 

[Sweeney Tom]

If you wanna make the thread a better place

Take a look at yourself and then make a change

Pipe

Bomb

 

[Beefy]

Roman is just boring , whatever the fuck he is meant to be.

 

[Anth0ny]

No pure babyface comes out to say they're going to bury the Undertaker forever. They're intending for us to pick our side in the Taker match (#TeamRoman), as we've done with Roman vs Styles, Owens, Jericho, Rusev, and Rollins (for some reason these booked opponents for the last year are faces to nearly all of GAF and this demographic, like they know or something...).

that stuff kinda goes out the window when we're talking about babyface vs babyface feuds, especially babyface vs legend at wrestlemania. look no further than rock/cena. Cena was absolutely still a babyface during that feud, just as Reigns is now. He's just shit talking his opponent, as any wrestler does.

there was also a clear creative change in direction over the last year with roman, where they lessened up on the cena 2.0 jokey dialogue and gave him more of a "i don't care what you think of me, one versus all babygurl ahhhyessir" (try hard, annoying as fuck, still incredibly poorly scripted) attitude. still absolutely a babyface, though.

Let talk about Okada vs Shibata, and how hype that match is going to be.

Can Shibata be a main eventer already? I need some strong style in my life.

 

[Kornflayx]

If you wanna make the thread a better place

Take a look at yourself and then make a change

You wanna see a phony? Look in the mirror kid

 

[Kaladin]

Watching Smackdown now...I love this Shane AJ bit!

That awkward handshake request tho

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Face/Heel shit absolutely still exists in modern WWE

Of course. But the audience demographics are much broader than teenage to young adult dudes, and ideal reactions are going to be more of just getting noise than getting a uniform boo or cheer, which hasn't been a reaction in main event wrestling for years now. It's not the '90s, and the top stars will be treated like celebrities, where people pick their fave and stick to it. It's how Roman got over as a face to begin with, because we started cheering him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkhZkowEO7Y

21:00, Kevin Owens starts talking about how he's getting mixed reactions and how that's the optimum reaction to get now, like Roman and Cena.

 

[RecRoulette]

So is Bray going to come out as Husky Harris because Randy used the cursed cattle brand to stab the ground he already set on fire?

He has no powers anymore right?

Edit: Shane vs AJ is a regular match with no bullshit stipulations? (aka no stunts)

Props to whoever backstage went "No, Shane. You've done enough." I mean that.

 

[The Silver]

I can't believe you're actually arguing the power of Raw kayfabe as being above all.

How many interviews from top guys does it take for them to tell you the wrestling world is moving on from the old ways?

You don't get that people are watching it as a TV show, a show where it's own internal "kayfabe" logic matters. In the context of Raw the TV show Roman is portrayed as the Cena jr good guy, fans get frustrated why this continues to be when they're clearly making it known they don't like him in that role and they feel their intelligence is being insulted and that the people in charge don't give a fuck about them despite claiming to. When King claims the audience is chanting let's go Sheamus when they're actually booing the shit out of someone fans view it as insult to their intelligence not some Trump like 4D chess.

When other shows have a character that gets hated on despite the context of the show clearly wanting you to like them they change course, not hide behind "at least social media is talking about them". Felicity on Arrow is a prime example where she became a Roman figure in the fanbase in season 3/4 and the writers eventually changed course because the reaction she was getting was counter to the context of how she was presented in the show.

That's all what wrestling fans want, to watch a good show with logical storylines and compelling characters like any other on tv. They don't need to try to outsmart the fans with meta 2.0 kayfabe shit only they can see while those fans just react with negatively about the quality of your show.

 

[miserable]

Let talk about Okada vs Shibata, and how hype that match is going to be.

yes, let's talk about how Okada is gonna no-sell Shibata's headbutts

 

[jmdajr]

lmao

Spoiler

MJ is innocent

 

[Beefy]

So is Bray going to come out as Husky Harris because Randy used the cursed cattle brand to stab the ground he already set on fire?

He has no powers anymore right?

Bray is going to come out in a suit and tie and briefcase. He is going to be corp Bray.

 

[Man God]

AJ has forgotten the code of honor!

 

[Kaladin]

Listen up jack brother jabronie marks, don't get yourself worked into a shoot because you don't know when you're getting worked. Goodnight!

 

[FlammableD]

They wont be married in 5 years.

 

[RecRoulette]

Bray is going to come out in a suit and tie and briefcase. He is going to be corp Bray.

Fuck, I would be hype for IRS Jr.

 

[Tall4Life]

Face and heel still exist in WWE by the very fact that there are still face and heel turns.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

You don't get that people are watching it as a TV show, a show where it's own internal "kayfabe" logic matters. In the context of Raw the TV show Roman is portrayed as the Cena jr good guy, fans get frustrated why this continues to be when they're clearly making it known they don't like him in that role and they feel their intelligence is being insulted and that the people in charge don't give a fuck about them despite claiming to. When King claims the audience is chanting let's go Sheamus when they're actually booing the shit out of someone fans view it as insult to their intelligence not some Trump like 4D chess.

When other shows have a character that gets hated on despite the context of the show clearly wanting you to like them they change course, not hide behind "at least social media is talking about them". Felicity on Arrow is a prime example where she became a Roman figure in the fanbase in season 3/4 and the writers eventually changed course because the reaction she was getting was counter to the context of how she was presented in the show.

That's all what wrestling fans want, to watch a good show with logical storylines and compelling characters like any other on tv. They don't need to try to outsmart the fans with meta 2.0 kayfabe shit only they can see while those fans just react with negatively about the quality of your show.

I'm the one saying it's not complicated.

Women and kids love Roman, and guys still talk about him constantly, despite the things he's doing that you guys are saying should make people hate him and tune out. You guys are going to have to move past trying to argue his booking is ineffective unless you can show me where he's come out and no one's cared. Him and his booking are incredibly effective in a particular face role, it's just not for you or your demographic.

If Roman's failing, he'd get silence like everyone else that's failing. For some reason, guys can't shut up when he comes out, every single week, anywhere in the country. Like he's an over heel to a lot of people or something.

 

[Man God]

Ellsworth is the greatest valet ever.

 

[Sephzilla]

I'm the one saying it's not complicated.

Women and kids love Roman, and guys still talk about him constantly, despite the things he's doing that you guys are saying should make people hate him and tune out. You guys are going to have to move past this mental block in trying to argue his booking is ineffective. It's incredibly effective, it's just not for you or your demographic.

If Roman's failing, he'd get silence like everyone else that's failing. For some reason, guys can't shut up when he comes out, every single week, anywhere in the country. Like he's an over heel to a lot of people or something.

If Roman's booking was effective he wouldn't be getting booed.

You're buying too hard into the "any reaction is good reaction" mindset that WWE is using as their PR line. That mindset exists only as a reason to justify the continued halfassed face runs of Cena and now Roman. If they were getting no reaction it would shift from "any reaction is good reaction" to "they aren't getting booed"

 

[jurgen]

Edit: Shane vs AJ is a regular match with no bullshit stipulations? (aka no stunts)

Props to whoever backstage went "No, Shane. You've done enough." I mean that.

I think they're finally deciding to protect Shane's "Cecil the Turtle" head after 20 years of damage.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

If Roman's booking was effective he wouldn't be getting booed

That means people care.

I'm confused on when wrestling has ever not been about pure crowd noise and interaction. How do you guys see these reactions, the biggest every single night among the full-time roster, and consider those failures? Is it just that you analyze something in wrestling as being a failure if it doesn't pander to your opinions, regardless of other contexts? Is Total Divas ineffective?

 

[jmdajr]

I like it when Roman says he has yet to be shit on by a fan in a 1 to 1 situation.

At least back in the day when hard asses used to watch this stuff they'd be brave enough to start a fight in real life.

"ROMAN, YOUR PROMOS SUCK! FIGHT ME!"

 

[Heroman]

yes, let's talk about how Okada is gonna no-sell Shibata's headbutts

It a no sell friend, it's​ Japanese fighting spirit.

 

[Anth0ny]

I'm the one saying it's not complicated.

Women and kids love Roman, and guys still talk about him constantly, despite the things he's doing that you guys are saying should make people hate him and tune out. You guys are going to have to move past trying to argue his booking is ineffective unless you can show me where he's come out and no one's cared. Him and his booking are incredibly effective in a particular face role, it's just not for you or your demographic.

If Roman's failing, he'd get silence like everyone else that's failing. For some reason, guys can't shut up when he comes out, every single week, anywhere in the country. Like he's an over heel to a lot of people or something.

if roman wasn't failing, business would be booming, mother fucker, friend.

instead they're handing out free months for the network like candy days before wrestlemania, and ratings are historically bad.

and thems the facts #shoot

 

[Sephzilla]

That means people care.

I'm confused on when wrestling has ever not been about pure crowd noise and interaction. How do you guys see these reactions, the biggest every single night among the full-time roster, and consider those failures? Is it just that you analyze something in wrestling as being a failure if it doesn't pander to your opinions, regardless of other contexts? Is Total Divas ineffective?

You're buying too hard into the "any reaction is good reaction" mindset that WWE is using as their PR line. That mindset exists only as a reason to justify the continued halfassed face runs of Cena and now Roman. If they were getting no reaction it would shift from "any reaction is good reaction" to "they aren't getting booed"

.

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

if roman wasn't failing, business would be booming, mother fucker, friend.

instead they're handing out free months for the network like candy days before wrestlemania, and ratings are historically bad.

and thems the facts #shoot

b...but HHH told me he hears tickets going CA-CHING!

 

[Gurrry]

Otunga's attempt to sell this catch phrase was so weak.

"American Alpha think they can mess with the Usos when they're on their day one ish? Man!"

I guess im not hip enough to understand, but what does One Day Ish even mean?

Are they saying that theyve been around since day oneish?

Or are they saying like, day one shit?