Marvel Considers Recasting Black Panther
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
Doom85
Member
"Which black characters or black historical figures have been played by white actors in the last ten years?"
First two examples given aren't black characters or black historical figures. The third one looked like this irl. Most of the rest just seem to be complaining that the cast in general isn't as black as some would have liked it to be.
Jinzo Prime
Gold Member
I legitimately can't believe how wild this thread has gotten.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
"Which black characters or black historical figures have been played by white actors in the last ten years?"
First two examples given aren't black characters or black historical figures. The third one looked like this irl. Most of the rest just seem to be complaining that the cast in general isn't as black as some would have liked it to be.
It's not limited to black people. Asian Americans have literally been replaced by white people in movies... I gave one example and somehow you didnt seem to get the correlation that WHITE people erased them in front of and behind the scenes (writers). They were actual people and not characters in a book.
Also... Michael was still black, irrespective of his extreme vitiligo... While it would have been hard to cast, casting a white man (Joseph Fienes... I'm probably butchering his name) as MJ is... Odd.
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calico
Member
Not reading all of whatever that cringe is supposed to be but which goalposts are you suggesting have moved? I asked for examples of black characters played by white actors in the last ten years and you 'misunderstood' the assignment so badly that you offered Japanese, Chinese, Hispanic characters and MJ who is a weird edge case because he presented himself as white as possible IRL.
I actually don't think you did misunderstand, it's just impossible to offer examples of what I asked for because it's not a practice which is currently accepted within the industry. I think we have now very exhaustively proven the existence of the double standard within the industry.
calico
Member
I agreed like 50 posts ago that it's socially accepted to discriminate against Asians.
I think it's such a unique case (black person turns white in appearance and then has extensive surgery to make himself look as not-African as possible) that it would be impossible to 'win' whatever the studio did. I think we can quite safely assume that if MJ had kept his original appearance throughout his life, this casting choice would never have been made.
Also, as far as I can tell, this episode never even aired because of the backlash, which would seem to suggest that rather than this example being evidence that this practice is accepted (as accepted as black actors playing white people, which is common practice), it is evidence to the contrary.
Doom85
Member
I know, because it doesn't fit with your worldview of conspiracy theories and other bullshit. Heaven forbid you actually have to acknowledge the hypocritical and disrespectful (because we're not allowed to accuse anyone of that one word that starts with "r" these days, and why would I? Youjust happen to think it's fun to mock stories and characters designed to reflect the struggles of real black people, I mean, that doesn't look suspicious at all……) behavior you've displayed, it's easier for you to go, "LOL, too long, didn't read." rather than actually even attempt to make a flimsy defense against my criticisms of you.
Hey, we'll see about finding you the elementary school version of my prior post, maybe that would be more fitting of your reading level.
Oh, and here's one more, I can't wait to see the nonsensical angles you have to reach for to tell me how this one also "doesn't count":
The New Mutants Trailer Renews Sunspot Whitewashing Controversy
With another The New Mutants trailer out of the way, online spaces are once again discussing the issues surrounding Henry Zaga's casting as Sunspot.
www.cbr.com
Brace yourself for goalpost moving Round 2!
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I don't think it's socially accepted to discriminate against Asians. This is Hollywood execs doing that, not society.
MJ had vitiligo... He just embraced the destroyed melanin and went with it. He wasn't trying to "be white". He was still a black man. He talked about black issues and racism. Everyone knows he's black.
And you still act like white people are oppressed somehow... By other white people.
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kpopSuperstar
Member
This is the problem, you don't understand that if you speak like this when you are white you get called racist.
Post #77, DUH.
I've already addressed it. Oh shocker, you "don't remember", because of course you don't, why change up your basic behavior, you troll. But here, because apparently you lack the basic capabilities of using Google:
Aloha (2015 film) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Ghost in the Shell (2017 film) - Wikipedia
"Urban Myths" Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon (TV Episode) | Adventure, Biography, Comedy
Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon: Directed by Ben Palmer. With Joseph Fiennes, Brian Cox, Carrie Fisher, Stockard Channing. Unaired episode. A road trip that takes place after the 9/11 attacks, taking Michael Jackson, Elizabeth Taylor and Marlon Brando from New York City to Los Angeles, California.www.imdb.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_33 (referring to Juliette Binoche's casting)
Exodus: Gods and Kings - Wikipedia
Pan (2015 film) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clown_in_a_Cornfield_(film) (Janet is supposed to be Asian)
Gods of Egypt (film) - Wikipedia
Maestro (2023 film) - Wikipedia
The New Mutants (film) - Wikipedia
Tetris (film) - Wikipedia
Now, WOULD IT SURPRISE YOU TO KNOW I CAN SMELL THE INCOMING STENCH OF GOALPOST MOVING?
You can save your breath, I called you out on your "bad memory" yet again, and there are clear examples. But again, I don't give a shit about someone like YOU, who wants to stand on a moral high ground against the boogeyman "society" that you delude yourself into thinking is out to get you, and yet with your same breath, you mock creators (deceased ones at that) who went against the norms of their times and created characters and spoke about topics that meant something to people who have actually been discriminated against.
Their characters and stories will last for a long time no matter how much you clearly wish they didn't based off your transparent attitude.
Wakanda FOREVER.
Someone defended the black woman in game dev who used non-white safe spaces. Which is categorically insane and is straight up nazi ideology. Every race has people afraid of other races. We cant use race safe spaces.
"Wakanda Forever" is a god damn race slogan.
You are getting away with so much bullshit and is demonizing everyone and everything as "suspicious (aka racist)" to shut people up.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
The "model minority" myth has made it acceptable to see them as "other"... When they aren't. They're just as oppressed as any black or brown person in this country.
African immigrants are one of the most educated, law abiding and financially successful groups in the US... But they don't have that myth attached to them.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Woah. This is a fantasy version of an African nation. It's not real. The writers can create any situation they can think of to make Wakanda more modern and multicultural.
Historically, white people have been in Africa for thousands of years, so it's not so much of a stretch to have Ryan Gosling as BP.
Any race can be Black Panther. It's just a title. Just like any race can be Captain America, Spider-Man, Iron Man etc. It doesn't matter.
Now, historical figures is where it does matter, but luckily Black Panther is fantasy.
kpopSuperstar
Member
You should be careful calling people oppressed on whims like this, I dont think they would like being called that.
Africa is a continent, with completely different people across it that are different.
Americans so odd with these sorts of statistics, cause you don't track countries, its usually just "black" or "asian", nor consider immigrant kids the same as immigrants, which dilutes the picture.
The extreme crime rates and populations you have make everything muddy and hard to study, and I rarely seen a great study on immigration patterns from the US. In europe its a lot clearer and easier to figure out.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
You really should read Christopher Priest's, Reginald Hudlin's and Ta-Nehesi Coates' runs because no... It's not a mantle like Cap, Spidey and Ironman....
And yes I know it's fiction. Duh. I'm passionate about the character (almost as passionate as Superman and Batman)
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Doom85
Member
I am white myself, so you can step off with the "you don't understand" nonsense.
A "race slogan"? Because a nation's citizenship just happens to be pretty much entirely one race and/or ethnicity? I guess the Japanese flag was an "race slogan" for a long time for example. Come on, man, you're just spouting nonsense. And there's a story reason Wakanda feel hesitant to let outsiders become citizens, because so many people covet their weapons and will do anything to steal that technology. It doesn't mean they hate the outside world, Shuri and Okoke risk a lot helping Ross (Martin Freeman's character) at the end of the second movie.
Oh, just stop with your double standard shit. Calico is here constantly making mass accusations of racism against white people, racism against Asian people, but the second someone IMPLIES he might be acting just slightly racially insensitive, that person needs to shut up? Here's a piece of advice: don't dish it out if you can't take it yourself.
The Wakanda of both the Marvel Comics and the MCU have a very clear history, you can't just suddenly say, "oh, actually, the country always had some white people in it" without causing massive continuity errors. And for established characters, who should Gosling play? You all keep saying "Gosling should play Black Panther", but you conveniently never say who.
All the native Wakandan Black Panthers preceding T'Challa, plus ones like his sister, would make no sense being white based on the established lore. Killmonger wouldn't as well without massively changing his character's backstory and motivation.
The only one Gosling could play is this new character in the comics, Ketema……who seems to be set up as a villain. And if they do go that route, I look forward to certain people still whining of, "oh, he can't be a hero?!" Well, the MCU took villains who weren't black in the comics, Kang the Conqueror and the High Evolutionary, and had them played by black actors.
So, you know, fair's fair.
Stan Lee created the Black Panther comic partially because he wanted a character to exist that if a black kid walked into a comic store he could find a comic that has a lead character that shares the same race as him. It's a relevant aspect of the title, the same way you wouldn't change the Fantastic Four from a family to a bunch of emotionally distant people who act like co-workers and associates rather than family and friends to each other.
If some of you can't respect what the Black Panther title means to some of the black community, are you at least capable of respecting Stan the Man? Come on!
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Giallo Corsa
Member
I am white myself, so you can step off with the "you don't understand" nonsense.
A "race slogan"? Because a nation's citizenship just happens to be pretty much entirely one race and/or ethnicity? I guess the Japanese flag was an "race slogan" for a long time for example. Come on, man, you're just spouting nonsense. And there's a story reason Wakanda feel hesitant to let outsiders become citizens, because so many people covet their weapons and will do anything to steal that technology. It doesn't mean they hate the outside world, Shuri and Okoke risk a lot helping Ross (Martin Freeman's character) at the end of the second movie.
Oh, just stop with your double standard shit. Calico is here constantly making mass accusations of racism against white people, racism against Asian people, but the second someone IMPLIES he might be acting just slightly racially insensitive, that person needs to shut up? Here's a piece of advice: don't dish it out if you can't take it yourself.
The Wakanda of both the Marvel Comics and the MCU have a very clear history, you can't just suddenly say, "oh, actually, the country always had some white people in it" without causing massive continuity errors. And for established characters, who should Gosling play? You all keep saying "Gosling should play Black Panther", but you conveniently never say who.
All the native Wakandan Black Panthers preceding T'Challa, plus ones like his sister, would make no sense being white based on the established lore. Killmonger wouldn't as well without massively changing his character's backstory and motivation.
The only one Gosling could play is this new character in the comics, Ketema……who seems to be set up as a villain. And if they do go that route, I look forward to certain people still whining of, "oh, he can't be a hero?!" Well, the MCU took villains who weren't black in the comics, Kang the Conqueror and the High Evolutionary, and had them played by black actors.
So, you know, fair's fair.
Stan Lee created the Black Panther comic partially because he wanted a character to exist that if a black kid walked into a comic store he could find a comic that has a lead character that shares the same race as him. It's a relevant aspect of the title, the same way you wouldn't change the Fantastic Four from a family to a bunch of emotionally distant people who act like co-workers and associates rather than family and friends to each other.
If some of you can't respect what the Black Panther title means to some of the black community, are you at least capable of respecting Stan the Man? Come on!
You know what's incredibly ironic ?
That if people said the same exact thing as you but in reverse (say, about Angrboda in GOW Ragnarok, "representation" in a Witcher game, People of all colors in an...ancient Greek setting), you'd be the first one to dismiss those opinions and scream from the top of your lungs "ThAT'S just fAnTaSY, WhY Do yOu cAre ?" - like the 99% of people out there that didn't pay any attention at school, never opened a book in their life with the only medium that they've consumed being friggin' comic books and video games.
Would you say that I'm right with my assessment ?
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Doom85
Member
You know what's incredibly ironic ?
That if people said the same exact thing as you but in reverse (say, about Angrboda in GOW Ragnarok, "representation" in a Witcher game, People of all colors in an...ancient Greek setting), you'd be the first one to dismiss those opinions and scream from the top of your lungs "ThAT'S just fAnTaSY, WhY Do yOu cAre ?" - like the 99% of people out there that didn't pay any attention at school, never opened a book in their life with the only medium that they've consumed being friggin' comic books and video games.
Would you say that I'm right with my assessment ?
A) I've never read or played the Witcher, so I have no opinion on it. Angrboda is not a human being. She is not actually a Norse human being. You know, if you had ACTUALLY READ MY PRIOR POSTS, you would know I had no issue with a white person playing Goku in live-action, because he's, you know, AN ALIEN! HE'S NOT HUMAN! Do I have to spell that out for some of you more slowly, because some of you all really can't seem to follow basic shit, I swear.
And no, say, when a film like Gods of Egypt came out, I didn't have an issue with some of the gods being played by white actors. Now if actual Egyptians were cast inaccurately, sure, that's an issue.
How does that clash with your pathetic attempt at an assessment of me?
B) so you're just calling me stupid with this "didn't pay attention at school" and "never opened a book in life"?
I paid enough attention in school to know what this limp dick of a tactic is:
Definition of AD HOMINEM
appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect; marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
Says a lot about how "strong" your argument is if you had to resort to that with your FIRST post towards me here.
Giallo Corsa
Member
A) I've never read or played the Witcher, so I have no opinion on it. Angrboda is not a human being. She is not actually a Norse human being. You know, if you had ACTUALLY READ MY PRIOR POSTS, you would know I had no issue with a white person playing Goku in live-action, because he's, you know, AN ALIEN! HE'S NOT HUMAN! Do I have to spell that out for some of you more slowly, because some of you all really can't seem to follow basic shit, I swear.
And no, say, when a film like Gods of Egypt came out, I didn't have an issue with some of the gods being played by white actors. Now if actual Egyptians were cast inaccurately, sure, that's an issue.
How does that clash with your pathetic attempt at an assessment of me?
B) so you're just calling me stupid with this "didn't pay attention at school" and "never opened a book in life"?
I paid enough attention in school to know what this limp dick of a tactic is:
Definition of AD HOMINEM
appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect; marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made… See the full definition
Says a lot about how "strong" your argument is if you had to resort to that with your FIRST post towards me here.
Alright man.
PS : This isn't your first rodeo when it comes to these type of posts, there's a reason why I replied to you.
PS : I'm white myself® and I found Gods of Egypt insufferable, idiotic and just plain bad - but not because of the whitewashing but because it was just a bad, horrible movie, not that it matters eh ?
Richard Packer
Member
Doom85
Member
I had a decent time with it. Nothing great by any means, but it was an okay time.
I liked the idea that they were so large. Some cool ideas in there.
I had a decent time with it. Nothing great by any means, but it was an okay time.
Gods of Egypt is sort of an odd duck in this conversation. For starters, the Egyptian gods don't actually exist, so they are another 'fictional' representation. But also, this was an AMERICAN production, not an Egyptian one, And it got a massive financial tax break in australia, likely requring a large number of aussies to be involved, thus they were significantly hamstrung in getting english speaking yet egyptian descended actors, as that pool is VERY small, and the australian angle makes it even smaller. So for the film to even exist, and be marketable to english speakers, the casting has to appeal to that market with the above limitations. So you get some bankable names who are far from being even passably egyptian. Hell, Chadwick Boseman is as miscast as the rest, really. Hell, Gerard Butler's home in Scotland is probably closer to Egypt as the crow flies than the ancestors of Boseman. If some arabic production company made the film with the intent to market it to the arabic world and have everyone speaking Egyptian, then I'd expect a lot more "appropriately ethnic" actors. If they wanted it to sell in the US and Europe, then we'd get the casting we got cause subtitled stuff doesn't sell.
If a Japanese company wanted to adapt a live-action Superman for their market, I'd expect a japanese Jor-el (with a human name that approximated the bland 'everyman' sound of clark Kent), japanese parents, everything Japanese. Because thats where they are, thats who they have to cast, and thats the market they are appealing to.
So thats why casting can be difficult, especially when the setting is very divergent from the place where it is being made. Why are there so many white dudes in the Star Wars Empire? Because they filmed it in england, full of white dudes. The Rebellion humans were just as monotonous. Why is John Wayne playing Ghengis Kann? Because he is the name that puts asses in seats and the number of mongolian, or even chinese, korean, or japanese actors in Hollywood that could headline a film like that at that time was probably like 5 dudes and none of them were even close to the star wattage of John. Yul Brenner isn't from Siam (Thailand), far far from it, but he had an exotic enough look to fit the bill (both for the play and the film The King and I).
So there are sometimes changes that are necessary due to limitations and constraints in the production. A 'white' Black Panther would be a marketing DISASTER, barring a decade long attempt to rebrand the character, so we all know that just isn't gonna happen. But to say that the character is INEXTRICABLY black is not true, everything about Wakanda could be transported to the Aboriginal outback or the heights of the Andes and it wouldn't change in a fundamental way and every character and backstory could be retconned. This isn't as true with characters like Captain America who are culturally bound to an ideology that can not be altered nearly as easily, IMHO. Could Bruce Banner be a skateboarding champion instead of a gamma ray scientist? Maybe, but I think the self inflicted nature of his duality is key to his character in ways that would be broken if he gets his power in some other way.
Doom85
Member
But I would hope you acknowledge that the Wakanda of both the comics and MCU is already established. It would be nonsensical for the films to say, "oh, after all that talk about Wakanda opening its borders, actually there were some Scottish and Vietnamese people among us too……for some reason."
And like I said, Stan Lee's reasoning for creating the character is relevant, otherwise we could likewise remove the family aspect of Fantastic Four, remove the responsibility aspect of Spider-man, remove the mutant aspect of X-men, etc. And yes, remove the Jekyll/Hyde aspect of Hulk.
I would be heavily against all of that. You want to know one of the many reasons the 2015 Fantastic Four film sucked shit? Because they don't feel like a family. At most, there's some rare sibling interaction with Johnny and Sue (but then they seem to barely give a shit when they lose their father). The movie prevents Ben from joining Reed for a good while before he's brought back much later, and then Reed practically abandons him for a year. Reed and Sue never really get close with one another. And then after the two barely interacting the whole film, at the last second they shoehorn in Johnny and Ben's banter but it comes out of nowhere and is just flat out cruel instead of just strong teasing ("The Thing that nobody wanted", wow).
I wouldn't be using John Wayne as an example, it came out that he actually made some xenophobic insults towards the Chinese people while on set.
I do think though if we're talking American productions, they do have the resources to find talented actors of the appropriate race and/or ethnicity for people that need to be cast accurately. I would be more lenient to say, the live-action films Japan made based on Attack on Titan, because Japan's live-action film industry is much smaller in how much they can afford so they couldn't afford to bring in a ton of German actors or even at least ones who could pass as German despite the setting of Attack on Titan being inspired from German cities and the names and other elements being German as well. Plus, it does have the benefit of being its own reality, it's not technically Germany nor does it history remotely resemble our own (at least based on Season 1 of what I've seen, if someone here knows some massive twist, please no spoilers).
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
J
jason10mm
You keep wanting to change Wakanda into something it hasn't been ever for the past 60 years... Why? Just to pwn some nebulous demographic and watch them rage? Trying to make it seem like it's totally canon to have a white Black Panther and these rules are just non-existent in the story lore?
Cap is American but his mantle can be passed on. Spider-Man wears a mask and his mantle can be passed on. The Black Panther is both protector AND King... And Wakandans wouldn't welcome an outsider...
All those changes you suggested would FUNDAMENTALLY change the story into something else entirely. Just make a new character, country and story, then.
You keep wanting to change Wakanda into something it hasn't been ever for the past 60 years... Why? Just to pwn some nebulous demographic and watch them rage? Trying to make it seem like it's totally canon to have a white Black Panther and these rules are just non-existent in the story lore?
Cap is American but his mantle can be passed on. Spider-Man wears a mask and his mantle can be passed on. The Black Panther is both protector AND King... And Wakandans wouldn't welcome an outsider...
All those changes you suggested would FUNDAMENTALLY change the story into something else entirely. Just make a new character, country and story, then.
Doom85
Member
DC Comics even has its own king of a country being a superhero for a fun alternative.
In fact, I didn't feel like making a thread for it because some people here on Gaf (not referring to jason) seem to have borderline contempt for comic books, but the great writer Peter David passed away a few weeks ago, and one of his many solid runs was on Aquaman, in fact most would say it's the best run of the character after Geoff Johns' run.
Although my favorite work of his was his 2005 X-Factor run, where Jamie Madrox, formerly called Multiple Man, gathers fellow mutant allies and friends to start a private investigator agency.
bitbydeath
Member
This is an odd thing to say since the character is white. His Grandpa wasn't really his Grandpa if that's where you're getting confused.
Doom85
Member
A) in an earlier post, I flat out used "grandpa" with quotations. I know my Dragonball.
B) Goku is an alien. There's no basis to determine his race. You could make an argument for skin tone, but he could easily be played by a white or Asian actor. Even certain other people of races and ethnicities (and also interracial families) depending on their skin tone would still reasonably match the physical appearance. And like I said, Dragonball is a world where Japan is inhabited by a talking cat, a talking pig, a dude with a third eye, a green alien, and normal people will occasionally look at them but no one makes a massive deal about them, so a non-Japanese person should logically not cause too much fuss.
But having said that, no, Goku (and the rest of the Saiyans) does not HAVE to be white. It's just they could be. Bulma, Krillin, Roshi, Yamcha, Chi-Chi, etc. though should be Japanese, or if there's limited casting options, at least Asian actors and actresses.
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StreetsofBeige
Member
Relax DF.
If there is some kind of Black Panther white dude in some new comics, it just comes from a guy writing about superheroes. No need to clutch onto BP and Wakanda always have to be Black people forever like it's the most important thing in comics. Be open minded and enjoy some diversity.
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bitbydeath
Member
I mean, you could say the same about any Alien, such as Superman. Which makes it redundant to talk about anything other than skin colour which is why I found it as an odd discussion point.
A) in an earlier post, I flat out used "grandpa" with quotations. I know my Dragonball.
B) Goku is an alien. There's no basis to determine his race. You could make an argument for skin tone, but he could easily be played by a white or Asian actor. Even certain other people of races and ethnicities (and also interracial families) depending on their skin tone would still reasonably match the physical appearance. And like I said, Dragonball is a world where Japan is inhabited by a talking cat, a talking pig, a dude with a third eye, a green alien, and normal people will occasionally look at them but no one makes a massive deal about them, so a non-Japanese person should logically not cause too much fuss.
But having said that, no, Goku (and the rest of the Saiyans) does not HAVE to be white. It's just they could be. Bulma, Krillin, Roshi, Yamcha, Chi-Chi, etc. though should be Japanese, or if there's limited casting options, at least Asian actors and actresses.
I didn't read your earlier posts.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
If it's fiction then it should be that any race can play the character.
WoC recently race swapped Aragorn to a black character, even though Tolkien based this character on historical Saxons, specifically King Oswald of Northumbria, but hey, it's fantasy after all, right? Aragorn wasn't real, so why does it matter
There definitely is a degree of double standards in the industry.
You previously pointed out cases of white actors playing roles of historical non white people. In those cases, the cast/director were called out and accused of white washing. The media attacked the studios, apologies were made etc. We can agree that white washing real historical non white people is wrong.
However, when it's reversed we never see people up in arms over "black washing". Sure, some people do complain, but those people are labelled racist. Those who complain about white washing end up praising the decision to race swap a historical white character.
Would we not say this is a double standard?
Why? Amazon can make Middle-Eartth a multicultural melting pot because "it's just fantasy" why can't we do the same fot Wakanda?
A new character created to put on the suit? Seems reasonable.
Change the lore. It's not as if established lore hasn't been changed before.
Race swapping fictional characters is fine as long as the character is a villain?
If some of you can't respect what the Black Panther title means to some of the black community, are you at least capable of respecting Stan the Man? Come on!
This is an important point. If Black Panther key identity is that the character must be black, then yeah, I think it would be a bit odd to race swap to a white character.
If I'm being honest, I don't think any character, fictional or historical, should be race swapped, but there are clear double standards in this area.
And I get it. White characters, both historical and fictional are over represented in media, which is bizarre considering white people are a global minority race.
To fix this, create more black fictional characters. Make films and TV shows about black, Asian and other non white historical figures. African nations have a very rich and vibrant history with some incredibly interesting people that would make amazing films and TV shows. This is what real representation should look like.
chromhound
Member
I think Denzel Washington will be the next Back Panther. A tribute to Chadwick for paying his summer acting . He was his mentor
Jinzo Prime
Gold Member
No, Denzel is a great actor, but we need another young black actor to fill the role.
I agree with you 100%. I'm not interested in changing Wakanda, it has enough internal structural flaws as it is without compounding them by trying to transpose it on a different region. All I'm saying is that at the level of the MCU, you COULD do it, and the vast majority of the stories you could tell wouldn't change and a lot of the audience that would watch wouldn't care. The critical elements of how Wakanda interacts with the MCU world and its properties are not geographically fixed. And you absolutely COULD introduce a non-black segment of Wakanda. It's a fictional country with nebulous borders. There could ABSOLUTELY be an even more reclusive batch of them, not heard from for a century, that springs out from some mountain fortress and who happen to be from a different part of Africa. We've already seen that Wakandans are sent out all over the world, it's LUDICROUS to think they don't meet others, fall in love, have kids, etc. Over centuries even that little bit of external contact would alter their population, lest the rest become the kind of inbred degenerates we see in other isolated populations.
MCU Captain America works as a specific representation of an American Ideal contrasted with an opposing set of beliefs and ideals. Those films don't rally have the time to get more than surface level so he needs to be clearly defined. Change that into a more murky interpretation and you get BNW. Same with Spiderman. It's the dorky high school kid with powers that really sells it. You can change out Peter Parker, but unless its with a direct personality clone, the dynamic is off. Sure, the power set is inherently cool, but it's the personalities that really sell this stuff.
See, the issue here is that you speak english and are consuming english media. Go watch spanish, indian, chinese, korean, or whatever non-english media and the % of white people drops off a cliff. Because a vast majority of "english only" speakers ONLY speak english, the subtitle barrier is very real for this other stuff (and dubbing is expensive). And all the production money is in America and England, the market is primarily America, and the casting of fluent english speakers is, not shocking, gonna come from english first countries which are mostly white. So the casting (for marketability, availability, suitability) is gonna be biased, the creator pool is gonna be biased, the money is gonna be biased. Just like Chinese cinema, Korean cinema, and all the rest.
Lately with a more global market and streamers need to feature 'local' products for the countries they infest I think we are seeing a big shift in risk for (predominately) american production companies so they will be willing to take more chances with non-traditional stories, casting, and settings. But ultimately it's the english audience that needs to give over their $$$ for that to happen. And quite frankly the global audience seems to have a pretty large appetite for white focused media that isn't always there when the demographics shift because you can see the global box office trends.
I just wanna see Denzel beat the crap out of a series of young toughs to win the crown. Remember, Wakanda is based on raw physical strength and fighting prowess but it's Hollywood so surely a 70 year old guy has a chance.
Doom85
Member
-but the double standard I was criticizing wasn't about the industry, but calico's behavior, recheck my post
-sure
-you've definitely had selective vision if that's all you've seen. Plenty of people who complain about "black washing" easily use accusations of racism themselves, including this very site. Christ, did you not see the shitshow that was the multiple Assassin's Creed Shadows thread? People were more than eager to accuse Ubisoft of "hating Asian men" and just generalizing the game as "black man murders massive amount of Japanese people, WOW" It was the same stupid reactions Resident Evil 5 got, but this time it was the other side that was being stupid
Trust me, the other side is more than willing to throw out racism accusations, hell, if you read all of calico's posts in this thread, he was throwing them around left and right like there was no tomorrow! That's kind of the double standard I was actually talking about
-not really, because plenty of times the movie or show releases as is because people only really become aware of the casting after the first teaser or trailer releases and it would be too costly to reshot a ton of footage. The final product is what matters
-because Wakanda is meant to be a fictional country within Africa, a real continent, set on our Earth. And its people are human beings that naturally fit in with Earth. You can't compare to Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth which is ENTIRELY fantasy and even the humans live within completely fictional cities, countries, the planet itself. There is no comparison to our Earth.
And Wakanda and the comics/movies deal with real social and political topics, some of which make the race of their people relevant. That isn't the case for Lord of the Rings, hell Tolkien himself said he had no intention for any metaphorical or such message(s) to his stories in Middle Earth.
-oh, so we'll complain about completely changing Taskmaster and thus
she's unceremoniously killed off after a minute of screentime
in Thunderbolts, but now it's okay to invent a totally original character to be Black Panther and keep him around?
-when have massive retcons to an entire nation's history happened within the MCU?
-come on, bruh, I didn't say that, and you know it. I'm saying the only white person to become Black Panther in the comics so far is clearly framed as a villain. So in terms of canon characters, that's who we have to work with.
-thank you.
-I disagree, I think there are logical layers that should be examined (is the character representing an actual real person who exists/existed? Is the character actually a human being? Is the setting a real place or fictional, and how much of it is it one way or the other? Was the character's race actually carefully considered when making the character? Does the character's race significantly impact the story, interactions with bother characters, themes, etc.? And so on and so forth) when it comes to each individual choice on if a race/ethnicity change is acceptable.
The problem is the drama queens on either side can't be bothered to apply that much thought to such a process, and thus all of them would rather sling accusations and demands rather than thinking logically about it.
-well, people on the other side have ignored race/ethnicity ratio statistics themselves. When Spider-man Homecoming came out, there were a decent people complaining that the students of Peter's school were "clearly forced to be diverse" and such…….and almost anyone who actually lived in Queens said, actually, the movie probably should have had a few less white people in the school if it was going for full accuracy.
-they've done so, plenty, and most of the time I've seen plenty of people on the other side automatically dismiss it as "woke", will cheer if it ends up flopping, will call the black actress(es) ugly or worse (this has really ramped up in the last year or so), etc.
And in general, new IPs just don't do that well. Looking at the actual box office, despite people claiming they "want more originality", it's more often than not the established IPs that bring in the big bucks.
Like, let's be real. The Spider-verse films are highly acclaimed and have done quite well at the box office. But if we removed the Spider-man name, changed up the powers and names and such so they're all original characters, but still retained the solid writing, animation, and such, do you really think those movies would still have done nearly as well as they did as a Spider-man film? No, people will be more likely to see dogshit like Despicable Me 4 or Moana 2. Not saying they don't enjoy those films themselves generally, but it's moe about them going with what's "safe and familiar" than trying something new.
Every now and then you get a breakthrough original hit like Sinners that does so well even the usual haters will know to back down. And yet you wonder how long that will last before the usual suspects just can't help themselves. I mean, on this very forum, there was a guy who said recently, "has enough time passed that we can all stop pretending that Black Panther is anything but a mediocre movie that was propped up by the wokies and black community?" Like, dude is so butthurt over that film's success he needs to think a ton of people are just straight about lying about how they felt about the film, just so his sense of reality isn't shattered. Pretty pathetic, and I've seen enough of shit like this to know eventually there will be people saying the same thing about Sinners.
To quote Battlestar Galactica: "all of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again."
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
We see the history of Wakanda in the first few minutes of the first movie. 5 tribes are united under the FIRST Black Panther/King of Wakanda, guided by Bast, the Panther god. There is no "hidden" part of Wakanda with a white population... Bast wouldn't allow it. There IS a tribe in the mountains... The Jabbari who worship Hanuman, the ape god. Africa has GREAT genetic diversity and having several tribes already in Wakanda ensures their own genetic diversity. The setting of Wakanda being in Africa already sets it apart from multiple other heroes in Marvel... You have the drama of a unique traditional society working with futuristic technology that rivals anything Reed or Doom can create and build, you have multiple African spiritualist religions and the royal family and their competing world views on loyalty to Wakanda and humanity overall (Shuri vs T'Challa)... With a pair of siblings who are both geniuses (in the comics).
In the purview of the MCU, they have an internal logic that wouldn't make sense if you suddenly introduced a different racial demographic in Wakanda whose borders are set (remember, they have a tribe in charge of the borders), whose customs and population are set, whose religions are set... Spending that makes no sense.
I haven't watched season 2 of Rings of Power (I forgot all about it and not sure I want to watch it) and even though I don't care about the multiethnic casting, it should have remained all white because that's what the world of Lord of the Rings set up (except for the Easterlings, maybe). I love the original trilogy (can't stand the Hobbit trilogy)... The RoP show doesn't make sense with the internal logic given to us in the LOTR movies...
So you're saying Miles Morales is a bad Spider-Man? He isn't a clone of Pete but he has some of the same traits but he's got HELLA different life experiences. And he's still Spider-Man through and through because he's a good kid with good moral guidance from his mom and, now, Peter... As well as others.
And Brave New World works with the same logic as the first 3 Cap movies... The mantle was handed over to Sam in Endgame. There was nothing fundamentally changed because of it. So I don't see your logic there.
Ok, going back to other things...
calico
Member
Did you see what he did to his facial features?
How would you go about casting for white-era MJ btw? Cast a black actor and have them wear whiteface and facial prosthetics? This probably isn't a great solution either. I think the reality is this era of MJ is likely off-limits for portrayal for the time being unless they can find someone who underwent a similar transformation and can act.
However, we would not need to refer to such unique (and apparently never even released) examples to begin with if it was in fact accepted practice within the industry to have white actors play black characters (as it obviously is accepted the other way around).
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Nah. It's not a both sides thing. Far more people complain about white washing, including the media. When black washing happens, especially with historical figures, the media praises it, as do the same people who complain about black washing.
look at this example. In Amazon's new show, My Lady Jane - which is an alternative history series based on novels of the same name - one of the characters is King Edward VI.
Here is the real Edward VI
And here is the modern Amazon version that the media are fapping over. Not only did they race swap him, but they also had to make him gay.
Zero uproar from the media. Of course people are complaining, but they're just accused of being racist.
Who cares about a random poster. I'm talking about the wider social perception.
Middle-earth is the planet Earth, just in the deep past. They're both fantasy and both comparable.
If we can have a multicultural Middle-earth then we can have some diversity in 21st century Wakanda.
Who mentioned Taskmaster??
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay. Let's take Blade. His race isn't central to his character. Can we cast a white guy as Blade?
You seem pretty annoyed at the idea of a white BP. Rightly so. Which means you are actually against race swapping.
Agreed.
I don't want to believe this. That would mean we're stuck with the same IPs never to get anything new. You really believe this or want this?
Sinners is fantasy. I'm talking about historical TV shows and films based on Africans.
Why race swap Queen Charlotte when we could produce a historical film about the spectacular Queen Nzinga Mbande?
kpopSuperstar
Member
If they made a pure white nation in Marvel that was built around the idea of representing the white race, and there was a slogan for it. Yes, it would be considered racist. It would never be accepted.
There are so many of these odd situations with black americans that dont make sense. Its like when Muhammed Ali changed his name because he didnt wanna carry a slave name. But he changed it into a muslim arab name who are his original slavers. Yet people dont even notice the irony. Wakanda is OBVIOUSLY a black first nation that is being used as a black first story in Marvel.
Many characters mean different things for people. Many white characters means much to white people too. If we go by what a character means to a community then no one should be race swapped.
Which is the correct path, but if you are gonna turn heimdal and snape into africans then you better stfu when they turn black panther into vanilla.
StreetsofBeige
Member
No doubt would sell more tickets.They should cast dricus du plessis as the next bp, dude is african and look like a superhero without need for steroids
StreetsofBeige
Member
That's the childish hoarders mentality. People with this view in life love to take other people's things, but hate to give up anything. Complaining and clutching every last thing they got in life.That was the amusing thing watching the Black Panther fad: Wakanda's status quo was essentially a 'racially pure' supercharged version of MAGA, but the same crowd who would argue the latter is pure evil were absolutely giddy over Wakanda
Similarly, it's like kids in elementary school. A group of kids hang out and share what they got. But there's always one asshole who love to check and play other kids stuff, but never let's others touch his.
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Doom85
Member
And we're done. This very fucking site has shown that's clearly not the case. You don't get to excuse bullshit on either side with "well, I think this side complains more! I don't have numbers to prove there's more complainers, but trustmebro!" and "b-b-but the media doesn't like us!" If there's complaining on both sides, then that damages your claim
And DO NOT BULLSHIT ME THAT THE OTHER SIDE NEVER USES THE "YOU'RE RACIST" MOVE. I already pointed out the AC Shadows threads where everyone and their mom were throwing out "you all hate Japanese people!" left and right, and again, this VERY THREAD where calico just makes mass racism accusations casually.
So you're going to sit here and really try to manipulate me into not seeing what people are flat out saying? Really?
If you choose to stick your head in the sand about all this, you're probably too far gone on that side and are already chugging down that Kool-aid.
The fact that the other side continues this blatantly false "it's not both sides" narrative even as this year proves how much their side has certain, powerful individuals who have zero respect for and are attacking freedom of speech, expression, equality, etc. and yet they want to pretend none of it is happening (no, I won't elaborate more. You know damn well why, and I'm not going to break the forum rules just to spell it out for you). It proves how many of them really want the world to only cater to THEM and don't actually give a shit about a fair playing field like they pretend to.
You're choosing to equate two things to fit your argument. Wakanda doesn't represent the entire race, how the fuck would that make sense? They just happen to be made up of all black people, and the stories and themes work in their own way because of that. And plenty of the black community were celebrating because it was the first MAJOR BLOCKBUSTER film in the U.S. with a massive black cast, something that had pretty much never happened in Hollywood before. But of course, certain people *cough* just couldn't stand seeing them be happy about that, huh?
So what, based on your "logic", saying "anime rules" is an ethnicity/nationality slogan now? You sound fucking insane.
You're conveniently choosing to skip over all the many other factors and details I've explained as to how I feel who could be raceswapped and such or not. Either read my prior posts, or step off, I'm not repeating what I've typed multiple times by this point.
Heimdall is a fictional deity, so NOT HUMAN, whose story, and the other Norse gods, are massively changed, and yet the first change out of all of them that so many individuals like YOU whine about is him being black.
Hilarious how you "conveniently" missed my Gods of Egypt post where I said I had no issue with the cast, including the white actors/actresses, who played the Egyptian gods.
Ah yes, I remember all the times Snape spoke out about actual race issues. Oh wait, no, any elements of discrimination in HP were completely metaphorical.
"you better STFU"
Somebody's getting a little spicy. Funny, I thought individuals like you were usually all vocal about freedom of speech…..
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Now steady on. I'm happy to debate in good faith.
Really? This site isn't the majority. Let's look at how the general media responds and the general public.
Look at your examples of white washing. One of them was the film Aloha, where Emma Stone got criticised because she was a white woman playing a mixed race character. The meida jumped on it and Emma Stone had to issue an apology.
We never see media backlash when a black actor plays a historical white figure. We don't have black actors issuing apologies for "black washing".
I'll give you example. When Jodie Turner-Smith was cast as Queen Anne Bolyen, it was praised as a brave casting choice. I didn't massive media backlash that resulted in Jodie having to issue an apology.
Calm yourself. I didn't mean to upset you.
I didn't say that people on the "other side" don't pull out the racism card. However, it is clear that one side is seen as progressive and the other as racist.
That is the issue people have. Either all race swapping is wrong, or its not. We shouldn't pick and choose depending on which race is being swapped.
I'm not trying to manipulate you at all. That is not my intention and I'm sorry you feel that way.
I have no idea what this means, but it appears to be treading into forbidden territory.
The fact that the other side continues this blatantly false "it's not both sides" narrative even as this year proves how much their side has certain, powerful individuals who have zero respect for and are attacking freedom of speech, expression, equality, etc. and yet they want to pretend none of it is happening (no, I won't elaborate more. You know damn well why, and I'm not going to break the forum rules just to spell it out for you). It proves how many of them really want the world to only cater to THEM and don't actually give a shit about a fair playing field like they pretend to.
Whatever you say. I don't want to upset you any further, so let's call it a day.
Thanks for taking the time to engage with me.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
That was the amusing thing watching the Black Panther fad: Wakanda's status quo was essentially a 'racially pure' supercharged version of MAGA, but the same crowd who would argue the latter is pure evil were absolutely giddy over Wakanda
Are you SERIOUS?!?
IT. IS. BASED. IN. AFRICA.
IT. IS. A. MILLENIA-OLD. ISOLATIONIST. NATION.
I'm not sure what you mean by "version of MAGA"...
kpopSuperstar
Member
They don't "happen" to be made of black people. Its Africa, its supposed to be black people. Which is cool and I support, but to deny there aint a black people first tint to it is outright false.And we're done. This very fucking site has shown that's clearly not the case. You don't get to excuse bullshit on either side with "well, I think this side complains more! I don't have numbers to prove there's more complainers, but trustmebro!" and "b-b-but the media doesn't like us!" If there's complaining on both sides, then that damages your claim
And DO NOT BULLSHIT ME THAT THE OTHER SIDE NEVER USES THE "YOU'RE RACIST" MOVE. I already pointed out the AC Shadows threads where everyone and their mom were throwing out "you all hate Japanese people!" left and right, and again, this VERY THREAD where calico just makes mass racism accusations casually.
So you're going to sit here and really try to manipulate me into not seeing what people are flat out saying? Really?
If you choose to stick your head in the sand about all this, you're probably too far gone on that side and are already chugging down that Kool-aid.
The fact that the other side continues this blatantly false "it's not both sides" narrative even as this year proves how much their side has certain, powerful individuals who have zero respect for and are attacking freedom of speech, expression, equality, etc. and yet they want to pretend none of it is happening (no, I won't elaborate more. You know damn well why, and I'm not going to break the forum rules just to spell it out for you). It proves how many of them really want the world to only cater to THEM and don't actually give a shit about a fair playing field like they pretend to.
You're choosing to equate two things to fit your argument. Wakanda doesn't represent the entire race, how the fuck would that make sense? They just happen to be made up of all black people, and the stories and themes work in their own way because of that. And plenty of the black community were celebrating because it was the first MAJOR BLOCKBUSTER film in the U.S. with a massive black cast, something that had pretty much never happened in Hollywood before. But of course, certain people *cough* just couldn't stand seeing them be happy about that, huh?
So what, based on your "logic", saying "anime rules" is an ethnicity/nationality slogan now? You sound fucking insane.
You're conveniently choosing to skip over all the many other factors and details I've explained as to how I feel who could be raceswapped and such or not. Either read my prior posts, or step off, I'm not repeating what I've typed multiple times by this point.
Heimdall is a fictional deity, so NOT HUMAN, whose story, and the other Norse gods, are massively changed, and yet the first change out of all of them that so many individuals like YOU whine about is him being black.
Hilarious how you "conveniently" missed my Gods of Egypt post where I said I had no issue with the cast, including the white actors/actresses, who played the Egyptian gods.
Ah yes, I remember all the times Snape spoke out about actual race issues. Oh wait, no, any elements of discrimination in HP were completely metaphorical.
"you better STFU"
Somebody's getting a little spicy. Funny, I thought individuals like you were usually all vocal about freedom of speech…..
"Certain people cant stand them being happy about it". You always fall back on trying to demonize people.
Your "factors and details" is a mess of embarrassing gifs and rambling that no one understands.
Heimdal is one million times more important and embedded into a culture than black panther ever will be. He has been a cornerstone of a northen european mythology for a very long time. Your stance on the importance of black panther counts tenfold with heimdal for europe.
Snape and race issues? what? what does that have to do with anything about the cast?