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Marvel going street level w/ Netflix (Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist)
- Thread starter Cartman86
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Haha. Bill Everett and Stan lee might have some words to say about being DD's true daddy.
Season 4 included the best villain and one of the best storylines of the series.
Gosh, I don't think so, no. But they were plenty emotionally resonant and intense.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
torre_avenue
Banned
To all of you wishing for an Asian-American Iron Fist, looks like Marvel's been listening.
From this op-ed from THR:
From this op-ed from THR:
BronsonLee
Member
Fucking lol at them listening and then basically saying 'yeah, we'll just do what we want anyway'
I actually laughed out loud when I read that.
Chiaroscuro
Member
I think it was already discussed here to death, but that would only work if the make Randy as chinese descendency or mixed, still raised in NY and still a fish out of water in Asian cultures.
But if you make him chinese or half-chinese, wouldn't him be close to be Shang Shi?
Glass Rebel
Member
I was hoping they cast Randall Park as Danny Rand. Just have him play his character from Fresh off the Boat.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
That's why I'm not a fan of it. I'd like to see more Asian actors in Hollywood not cast as martial artists since that's all we see right now.
It would be like saying that the Marvel movies need more diversity, so go ahead and cast an African-American actor as Ant-Man since the character has been to prison. It just feeds into the same casting biases. And Ant-Man sorta did graze on doing that because the supporting actors who were criminals were minority actors.
People say that they want to cast an Asian American actor as Danny Rand, which is fine by me. But the strongest argument I've seen for that is wanting to avoid the "Mighty Whitey" trope of a White character saving a culture by being better at the skills he learns from it. But you avoid that trope if you cast an actor of any other race. Why specifically go to Asian just because it has a martial arts focus? It still keeps Asian actors in that small box.
See, the problem is the entire thing with Iron Fist is so dated. Either way, it's awkward. You either take him for what he is - a living embodiment of the White-Hero-With-Asian-Powers trope like American Ninja, or you try to imagine what he would be like if he was more "culturally sensitive", and then you get a All-Asians-Are-Martial-Artists trope. It's stupid either way honestly, so it's going to be important that they focus on writing an interesting and engaging story around the character and fill the cast with interesting characters that will hopefully distract people from the core issues.
It's less making Danny Rand asian because martial arts and more that we need a strict moratorium on white male leads in the MCU, period. Iron Fist just happens to be the 1 property on the announced docket (other than the Inhumans in 2019) that's still open to diverse lead casting. Naturally, people are going to debate changing the race of his character since it's literally the only opportunity for a few more years to affect change.
For a similar argument, look at the past debate surrounding the rebooted Spider-man with quite a few wanting Miles Morales to have the mantle in the MCU before it was announced we were getting white Peter Parker again. The thirst is there and telling people to wait at least 4 more years to maaaaaybe getting more diverse leads in the MCU is a non-starter.
For a similar argument, look at the past debate surrounding the rebooted Spider-man with quite a few wanting Miles Morales to have the mantle in the MCU before it was announced we were getting white Peter Parker again. The thirst is there and telling people to wait at least 4 more years to maaaaaybe getting more diverse leads in the MCU is a non-starter.
Why is it being framed as either a white American or Asian male? Why not have a black lead? Native American? A Mexican woman? It's the either-or situation, and the immediate fan propulsion toward "Asian male!" that makes me uncomfortable. People out there who immediately thought a martial artist named Iron Fist was an Asian guy: reflect on your own chauvinism. I don't think it would be necessarily bad if Iron Fist was a white guy, or if he was Asian, as long as he is well-written and his story is compelling. But it would succumb to the morass of cliche. There is no reason to be stuck between only two options. Open the box. If anyone can get away with broadening representation in film and TV, it's Marvel.
Well if it's not broke why fix it?
Angelus Errare
Banned
Marvel doesn't give a fuck about what you want. They'll do what they want and then everyone will be like "Oh yea, this was a good idea! Much better than my idea."
Based Marvel.
Based Marvel.
Well, let's be real - Iron Fist is a traditionally "Asian" character, which is why no one is clamoring for a black Iron Fist. He has an Asian dragon tattooed on his chest, he trained in an ancient Asian city to learn Asian-style martial arts.* If there was a character called "The Samurai" who was a white guy in armor, they'd want him to be Japanese. If there was a white guy called "Anansi" who had spider/trickster powers, they'd want him to be West African. If there was a Maori-themed superhero, they'd want him to be Maori, and so on and so forth.
*Note that "Asian" is different than a specific ethnicity, but since K'un-Lun is pretty much "ambiguous Chinese/Tibetan/Nepalese" in culture, it's more difficult to really get to the heart of.
The problem is we, in the West, don't really produce characters that are clearly inspired by a certain culture and aren't merely stereotypes of that culture. We look at places like, say, Tibet, and say "cool, martial arts, monks, Dalai Lama, got it." Are there different, unique, more sensitive aspects of Tibetan culture that can and should be portrayed? Sure, but good luck finding an American dude who knows about them.
EVERYTHING about Iron Fist is stereotypical generic mystical kung-fu bullshit. That is 100% where he came from. There is no way to tell his story without tapping into that. But him actually being an Asian dude would at least give some representation to the cultures they're bastardizing.*
*And that's not a knock; I love the 70s knock-off Enter the Dragon universe that Iron Fist lives in. It's a ton of fun, just like Luke Cage's blaxploitation Harlem. But let's not pretend like they're not coming from some pretty ignorant, antiquated places.
*Note that "Asian" is different than a specific ethnicity, but since K'un-Lun is pretty much "ambiguous Chinese/Tibetan/Nepalese" in culture, it's more difficult to really get to the heart of.
The problem is we, in the West, don't really produce characters that are clearly inspired by a certain culture and aren't merely stereotypes of that culture. We look at places like, say, Tibet, and say "cool, martial arts, monks, Dalai Lama, got it." Are there different, unique, more sensitive aspects of Tibetan culture that can and should be portrayed? Sure, but good luck finding an American dude who knows about them.
EVERYTHING about Iron Fist is stereotypical generic mystical kung-fu bullshit. That is 100% where he came from. There is no way to tell his story without tapping into that. But him actually being an Asian dude would at least give some representation to the cultures they're bastardizing.*
*And that's not a knock; I love the 70s knock-off Enter the Dragon universe that Iron Fist lives in. It's a ton of fun, just like Luke Cage's blaxploitation Harlem. But let's not pretend like they're not coming from some pretty ignorant, antiquated places.
You do know the characters have greatly evolved sense the 70s right?
No lies detected
Captain Marvel? Her race doesn't influence her character at all, and that's assuming they even go with Carol Danvers. Captain Marvel already has a couple racially diverse options built into the character.
Feige already said they're going with Carol Danvers.
They going to go with the boring ass carol, cause god forbid they piss off the 5 CarolCorp memebers that don't read the comics anyway.
But Phylla or Monica would be too dope
Because the only rational reason to consider changing the race of Danny Rand would be that the idea of a white man being king of kung fu in an Asian mystic city is considered insensitive. That's the only logical debate. There's no discussion on making him a black man, a Mexican woman, or a native American because those are not things which make any sense in the context of discussing Iron Fist. This isn't about general minority representation, it is about Asian representation being marginalized because even in a story about a guy growing up in a mystic Asian city filled with Asians, the hero is a white guy.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Slay don't hurt em!
America ain't ready for Monica like that, gotta ease folks into that.
BronsonLee
Member
Because I'M broke!
For sure. Immortal Iron Fist is nothing like the original 70s Iron Fist, and Luke Cage isn't out there fighting godawful stereotypes and spouting awful catchphrases.
But, particularly with Danny, you can't strip away the core of the character - which is "take cool Asian stuff, slap it on a white guy, have him kick dudes." You can have the entire comic be about him teaching martial arts in inner-city schools, struggling with his rich white boy guilt, and generally getting shat on by the actual Asian badasses of the other heavenly cities. That's part of the reason that Immortal worked so well: Danny is a fascinating, well-rounded character. (Honestly, he's "Batman done right" in the run; the way he struggles with trying to make a difference as Iron Fist and being a multi-millionaire as Danny Rand?)
But at the end of the day, these things are about advertising. People aren't going to see Fat Cobra and Bride of Nine Spiders on Page 9 or Episode 7. They're going to see a white guy on the cover, or the poster, or the commercial: big dragon on his chest, pretending to be Bruce Lee, with a bunch of Chinese extras in the background.
While Immortal Iron Fist did a great job of reinventing Iron Fist for modern audiences, I'll say that it also retains a lot of the problematic elements and simply puts in a more self-aware context. It's basically a Mortal Kombat story in a way, so it's easier to stomach some of the really eye-rolling aspects of the origin. The funniest thing though, is that Immortal Iron Fist doubled down on the "white savior" angle by not just having ONE white Iron Fist, but two in a row with the Randell backstory. Really makes K'unlun natives look bad!
While Immortal Iron Fist did a great job of reinventing Iron Fist for modern audiences, I'll say that it also retains a lot of the problematic elements and simply puts in a more self-aware context. It's basically a Mortal Kombat story in a way, so it's easier to stomach some of the really eye-rolling aspects of the origin. The funniest thing though, is that Immortal Iron Fist doubled down on the "white savior" angle by not just having ONE white Iron Fist, but two in a row with the Randell backstory. Really makes K'unlun natives look bad!
But Randell was an asshole and garbage
The message tha at a white dude would learn some mystical whammy only to incorporate guns into it is some meta commentary.
Okay, there's still no reason they couldn't cast Carol as a woman of color though.
I wouldn't want a woman of color, hell any woman to suffer through trying to portray such blandness on screen. They got those acting robots in japan? They should just get one
BronsonLee
Member
Marvel Casts A Robot From That Tokyo Restaurant As Carol 'Captain Marvel' Danvers
Chiaroscuro
Member
No, I think is the lack of a definition that fuels the controversy. Some people may complain, but the majority will go with "in Marvel we trust".
Whiteness is not important. He feeling like an outsider is!
Which is why half Asian would kill the mighty whitey cliche and still work with him being an outsider there.
But he isn't mighty, he is The Dan of The Immortal Wapons
"The context of Iron Fist" isn't set in stone. This isn't a true story. It can be manipulated any possible way. General minority representation is the issue I am talking about. The MCU has no obligation to adhere to the comics 100%.
Change his ethnicity and he can remain an outsider.
Let me rephrase the question: why can't a TV Iron Fist be black?
Ok ... you ASKED FOR THIS !
Here is a TV Troopes link >=|
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey
BKatastrophe
Member
I said goddamn
America is ready for Monica. America isn't ready for America.
Because that's idiotic. Use Monica instead.
Don't do this.
We've already been through this way too many times in the showrunner announcement thread.
Don't do this.
Pei the next and last Iron Fist,
At 6 years old she can do shit Danny couldn't dream of,
When K'un Lun got wrecked Danny tried to help, they told him "Nah Fam, you just get in the way"
People are really hyping this mighty whitey, when Danny is mediocre at best white.
#sorrynotsorry
Member
You know very well why they cannot. The movie would sell less tickets, sad as that is.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
so people where FOR getting rid of Asian characters in Doc Strange movie now complaining about IronFist?
lol
there's already a "Black" captain Marvel
why even go there with Carol.
lol
there's already a "Black" captain Marvel
arguably a better character too
America is as racist as Hollywood thinks it is,
Wait until they find out the Doc knows kung fu
#sorrynotsorry
Member
It's not even racism. People relate better to people like them. This doesn't have to always be the case (they could stop seeing racial lines), but it would require worldwide social change. For what it's worth, this is a worldwide issue - not an issue with America.
Wanting a character to be vaguely Chinese because he knows Kung fu is pretty racist.
Minorities spend money too
And white people more often than not don't mind minority leads.
If it was only black people watching Scandal, How to get away with Murder, Straight out of Compton, and Empire. The numbers wouldn't be that big.
Hell fast and the furious.
Anybody of any race can be an outsider. As others have said, making Danny Asian American would still make him an outsider in K'un Lun. Being an outsider isn't the only thing I'm talking about.
Danny is a privileged, rich white man whose best friend is Luke Cage. There's things about that relationship that don't work as well if they're both minority characters. The same thing could be said of his relationship with Misty Knight.
While there are still some issues of cultural appropriation, he doesn't really fit the mighty whitey trope as well as you might think. He isn't the greatest Iron Fist at all, he's pretty much shit tier.
That is what I been saying.
I imagine Danny calling Luke after seeing Prince of Orphans "Luke come get me!!! These dudes are not playing, it is real!!. The dude turned into a storm, a goddamn storm!!!!!"
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