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http://www.twitch.tv/col_cc_fchamp/b/297266609SolarKnight said:
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Marvel vs Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds |OT3| Self-Control Support Group
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
SolarKnight
Member
Thanks, I'll watch it later.
Dahbomb said:Topic of discussion:
S Tier of MVC3 be expanded to 8 characters instead of 5.
Zero and Viper are legitimate S Tier characters. Agree or disagree?
I know y'don't know me and I don't know enough about Viper, but I use Zero extensively and I'd call him A, but not S, tier.
The reasons why....
His health is too low, currently. He can be chipped out rather effectively by keep away teams. If you do hit him, you don't even really need to bother with popping x-factor to wipe him out because of how low the life is (anytime I see someone catch a point Zero and pop X-factor, I chuckle).
He has a real weakness to characters who can shoot down at a 45 degree angle at him. Characters like Trish, Deadpool, Morrigan, MODOK (I know lol), and Taskmaster are great against him, imo, and if he did get super popular, he'd feel this pain a lot more.
He doesn't do a lot of damage. You have to do reeeeeeeeally long combos or short, not very meter generating combos, or DHC glitches to get the most out of him. If we're ignoring difficulty to complete the combos, sure, he has the lightning loop and what not, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone pull it off to completion in a tournament match (although Marn came close).
I almost want to ignore the DHC glitch here, even though we're discussing vanilla, because of Ultimate, but even if you include it, others do it better.
He can be hit out of his teleports, so it's not as ridiculous as berserker, and they're not as quick, either.
His air throws, both, can be combo'd after through several different methods, but it obviously makes his damage even more anemic.
There was something about his level 3, too, but I can't remember. Probably off on it.
Either way, I think he's a VERY solid character and would love to get my face pounded in by you guys on 360 when I use him. I definitely think he's A tier.
But, S? I can't see it, mainly due to comparison with other characters who most definitely are S.
Karsticles
Member
I think that's part of it. JWong is all pumped about Storm's buffs in UMvC3.The real shocker is 1 Wolverine. WTF... haven't seen a 1 Wolverine top 8 since the days of Sentinel SSS tier. I don't know how to explain this other than most players who currently play Wolverine (like JWong) are temporarily not using him in preparation for UMVC3.
I think I only saw one Yun in Season's Beatings top 8, but I could be wrong.Been saying he's the Yun of MVC3 since the game came out. Although just like Yun, Wolverine isn't the best Phoenix is. Wolverine just allows you to wing it with solid fundamentals and dive kick plus superior mix ups tool like Yun. So Yun play has been dropping in AE? That's definitely a very interesting correlation.
Ryu can't cancel his overhead into anything but X-Factor, though. A standing overhead, cross-up dive kick, teleport for assist cross-ups, and option select j.H is a solid list of mix-ups.What mix up? He has an overhead... that's about as much "mix up" as Ryu which is average to below average. He has the usual Tatsu cross ups and air j.H + Tatsu + throw OS. His mix ups should be better in UMVC3 (along with mobility) with the air Demon flip moves.
I can agree to that.She Hulk is a fantastic character, but she is not as solid when she is alone. The thing about all S tier characters(even potentials we are discussing) is that they are completely self sufficient on their own. She Hulk doesn't have nearly as large a body of solo Anchor comeback history compared to Ammy and she is the more or less low S tier.
Spencer has seen a lot more solo action which makes it easier to discuss his strength on all fronts. She Hulk needs some more solo comebacks and fights before a final judgement can be made though.
Phoenix has lot health too - so? Who chips Zero out? Level 3 buster shots goes through pretty much everything.His health is too low, currently. He can be chipped out rather effectively by keep away teams.
Pretty much everyone but Dormammu and Skrull have this weakness, though. Superjump height keepaway is really strong in this game.He has a real weakness to characters who can shoot down at a 45 degree angle at him. Characters like Trish, Deadpool, Morrigan, MODOK (I know lol), and Taskmaster are great against him, imo, and if he did get super popular, he'd feel this pain a lot more.
Zero's damage is moderately high. Yes, he likes assists to help him, though.He doesn't do a lot of damage. You have to do reeeeeeeeally long combos or short, not very meter generating combos, or DHC glitches to get the most out of him. If we're ignoring difficulty to complete the combos, sure, he has the lightning loop and what not, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone pull it off to completion in a tournament match (although Marn came close).
Level 3 Buster is definitely a fair trade for Berserker Slash.He can be hit out of his teleports, so it's not as ridiculous as berserker, and they're not as quick, either.
You're looking at this backwards. Zero can combo out of his air throws. That's awesome. A lot of characters can't.His air throws, both, can be combo'd after through several different methods, but it obviously makes his damage even more anemic.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
So who are the best Arthurs out there? I need someone to xcopy.
Karsticles said:Phoenix has lot health too - so? Who chips Zero out? Level 3 buster shots goes through pretty much everything.
But it only goes straight or at a down angle. Trying to get in on a team with people who can arc their shots (Taskmaster) or can really throw a lot of projectiles (Doom + Taskmaster, Dormammu + Task or Doom or Sent or 'Pool, etc), and he'll take chip damage quickly.
Also, Buster charges very quickly. But, it's not spammable, not the level 3 that cancels out opponents shots completely, anyways. The reason Flocker was playing successful keep away in all those fights with Zero is he wasn't fighting a keep away team + he had Phoenix so they'd have to come at him.
So, the answer, is several characters / groups can chip Zero pretty well. It doesn't take much, either, to get him into kill range of a simple combo ending in hyper or a complicated combo taking no hyper.
Yeah, I was just trying to list everything out though. If you're going to consider someone for S Tier, you have to look at allllll their match ups.Karsticles said:Pretty much everyone but Dormammu and Skrull have this weakness, though. Superjump height keepaway is really strong in this game.
That's the main issue with trying to assign tiers to individual characters, imo. It really ignores the team building aspect of the game and, as such, is far more subjective than even the fun theorycraft of the other fighting games.Karsticles said:Zero's damage is moderately high. Yes, he likes assists to help him, though.
If taken in a vacuum, sure. The team building part is where, just taking those two moves alone, Berserker Slash increases in utility at a much steeper scale.Karsticles said:Level 3 Buster is definitely a fair trade for Berserker Slash.
Yeah, that's true. Does he do as much out of them as, say, Wolverine though?Karsticles said:You're looking at this backwards. Zero can combo out of his air throws. That's awesome. A lot of characters can't.
I'm not ripping on Zero at all, by the way. I love him. I just can't see calling him S when you have characters like Wolverine / Phoenix sitting in S.
Karsticles
Member
It just takes one buster shot for him to get in though, and then he's in for as long as he wants to be.But it only goes straight or at a down angle. Trying to get in on a team with people who can arc their shots (Taskmaster) or can really throw a lot of projectiles (Doom + Taskmaster, Dormammu + Task or Doom or Sent or 'Pool, etc), and he'll take chip damage quickly.
Keepaway is always better for a Phoenix team. You can get 5 bars just by blocking everything that comes at you practically. Not having to worry about snap-in setups is bliss.Also, Buster charges very quickly. But, it's not spammable, not the level 3 that cancels out opponents shots completely, anyways. The reason Flocker was playing successful keep away in all those fights with Zero is he wasn't fighting a keep away team + he had Phoenix so they'd have to come at him.
My point is that it's not really a weakness of Zero's so much as it is a strength of particular characters. You wouldn't count Zero's lack of a direct counter to Berserker Slash as a shortcoming of Zero's; it's a boon of Wolverine's.Yeah, I was just trying to list everything out though. If you're going to consider someone for S Tier, you have to look at allllll their match ups.
No disagreement there. Maybe UMvC3 will make the team aspect more clear, but right now it's all about that first hit.That's the main issue with trying to assign tiers to individual characters, imo. It really ignores the team building aspect of the game and, as such, is far more subjective than even the fun theorycraft of the other fighting games.
Wolverine doesn't get really high damage off of a throw, but people X-Factor the throw, and his X-Factor bonuses are through the roof. This will become more clear in Ultimate.Yeah, that's true. Does he do as much out of them as, say, Wolverine though?
Give it time, and it will become more clear. ;-)I'm not ripping on Zero at all, by the way. I love him. I just can't see calling him S when you have characters like Wolverine / Phoenix sitting in S.
Most Zero players I know only lose because they become impatient.
Bizazedo said:But it only goes straight or at a down angle. Trying to get in on a team with people who can arc their shots (Taskmaster) or can really throw a lot of projectiles (Doom + Taskmaster, Dormammu + Task or Doom or Sent or 'Pool, etc), and he'll take chip damage quickly.
Also, Buster charges very quickly. But, it's not spammable, not the level 3 that cancels out opponents shots completely, anyways. The reason Flocker was playing successful keep away in all those fights with Zero is he wasn't fighting a keep away team + he had Phoenix so they'd have to come at him.
So, the answer, is several characters / groups can chip Zero pretty well. It doesn't take much, either, to get him into kill range of a simple combo ending in hyper or a complicated combo taking no hyper.
Yeah, I was just trying to list everything out though. If you're going to consider someone for S Tier, you have to look at allllll their match ups.
That's the main issue with trying to assign tiers to individual characters, imo. It really ignores the team building aspect of the game and, as such, is far more subjective than even the fun theorycraft of the other fighting games.
If taken in a vacuum, sure. The team building part is where, just taking those two moves alone, Berserker Slash increases in utility at a much steeper scale.
Yeah, that's true. Does he do as much out of them as, say, Wolverine though?
I'm not ripping on Zero at all, by the way. I love him. I just can't see calling him S when you have characters like Wolverine / Phoenix sitting in S.
Zero is S, same as Wolverine and Phoenix. Buster makes just about everything safe, he can airdash xx j.H into a crazy ambiguous crossup (if you try to punish it you're boned because its the 2nd highest priority move in the game behind Wesker's s.S), he can consistently relaunch thanks to his teleport dash downwards, has arguably one of the best lvl 3's in the game (see how many times Marn will just throw that out randomly and it'll hit), geneijin mode leads to a corner infinite, normals hit multiple times negating most armor moves, super small hurtbox so he falls out of combos, etc, etc, etc.
Argue against the obvious all you want, there's no denying Zero's capabilities. He never really shined because he takes a bit more effort (but not much) than Wolverine, who's braindead simple. Viscant has stated often in the past that he's deathly afraid of Zero just because he can save himself against Haggar assist with buster yet holds almost all the capabilities that Wolverine does that makes him so scary. Zero is S, it just took this long for everyone to finally realize it.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Well, if you take into account teams, then I would put him right next to the Logan/Akuma duo. Flocker already demonstrated what happens when you give a walking hitbox an almost invincible assist. You can't approach him, you can't trade normals with him, and you can't really zone him without a team dedicated to taking him out. Flocker wasn't doing anything advanced or using meter and he shut down everyone.
If he has to take on the top 5 to get inducted, well...the only one that's flat out better is Phoenix. Dante has enough moves and half-screen normals to do battle with him on equal ground. Aside from his counter, Wesker is free to Zero, Magnus gets bodied, Logan gets ate up, and I don't even want to talk about the hell he gives hot mom Viper(freeeeee). That's 3-4 characters at the top that he can handle.
The fact that they gave him full-screen mixups in Ultimate boggles my mind. If there is an invincible assist, he's going to shut shit down extra hardcore. Him and Strider...
If he has to take on the top 5 to get inducted, well...the only one that's flat out better is Phoenix. Dante has enough moves and half-screen normals to do battle with him on equal ground. Aside from his counter, Wesker is free to Zero, Magnus gets bodied, Logan gets ate up, and I don't even want to talk about the hell he gives hot mom Viper(freeeeee). That's 3-4 characters at the top that he can handle.
The fact that they gave him full-screen mixups in Ultimate boggles my mind. If there is an invincible assist, he's going to shut shit down extra hardcore. Him and Strider...
Again, I'm not saying he's not damned good. I just maintain it's because all the teams he excels at ripping apart are also rushdown teams (which fall victim to Buster) or not true keep-away teams (Haggar and even Tron can be boned by Buster).
Yes, I know true keep away teams are inferior to the other rush down teams, but I'm trying to avoid getting too meta.
With his ridiculous buffs in Ultimate / nerfs to other characters who are S tier, I think it's easy to peg him S there.
I just think teams can be built to counter him easier in vanilla than say Wolverine.
Yes, I know true keep away teams are inferior to the other rush down teams, but I'm trying to avoid getting too meta.
With his ridiculous buffs in Ultimate / nerfs to other characters who are S tier, I think it's easy to peg him S there.
I just think teams can be built to counter him easier in vanilla than say Wolverine.
Oldschoolgamer said:The fact that they gave him full-screen mixups in Ultimate boggles my mind. If there is an invincible assist, he's going to shut shit down extra hardcore. Him and Strider...
I'm still curious about this. He can't airdash without caution anymore which takes away his biggest method of getting in. We'll have to see what he does to avoid legit zoning. I'm still not convinced that he has the tools to outshoot guys like Hawkeye and Ghost Rider.
Wolverine doesn't get really high damage off of a throw, but people X-Factor the throw, and his X-Factor bonuses are through the roof. This will become more clear in Ultimate.
Wolverine can, its just that most people dont use it. Daigo was using it during NCR/Evo
never really shined because he takes a bit more effort
Honestly the biggest reason he never really shined is because of that 800k life.
Grecco said:Honestly the biggest reason he never really shined is because of that 800k life.
Didn't stop people from playing Phoenix and Wolverine, who has 950. Or Akuma, who has about 800 himself.
Chindogg said:Didn't stop people from playing Phoenix and Wolverine, who has 950. Or Akuma, who has about 800 himself.
950, is still 950, (Which matters) and Wolvie has invunerable berserkerslash, Zeros teleports are completely vunerable.
Akuma is an assist character primarily, and that anchor for those lvl 3 xfactor comebacks. Nobody uses Akuma on point.
(Basically what Ultimo just beat me to)
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
She-Hulk is better than Zero. Her priority is just as good, she does way more damage, has way more life, and has a zillion ways to get in, plus the universe's best air throw.
Trish isn't even high tier. She simply doesn't have the damage output to be on that level. Takes like 4 combos to kill a Wolverine. There's a reason only one notable player uses her, and she's his worst character. Her best quality is the peekaboo assist.
Trish isn't even high tier. She simply doesn't have the damage output to be on that level. Takes like 4 combos to kill a Wolverine. There's a reason only one notable player uses her, and she's his worst character. Her best quality is the peekaboo assist.
Lazy vs Crazy said:She-Hulk is better than Zero. Her priority is just as good, she does way more damage, has way more life, and has a zillion ways to get in, plus the universe's best air throw.
Trish isn't even high tier. She simply doesn't have the damage output to be on that level. Takes like 4 combos to kill a Wolverine. There's a reason only one notable player uses her, and she's his worst character. Her best quality is the peekaboo assist.
ammy doesn't have top tier damage output but I'd put her top tier still.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Ammy has DHC glitch, linkable supers, and does pretty good damage in sword mode.
they're only linkable in the corner (and only in sword mode, and very tight windows) and a regular bnb from ammy only does close to 650k in sword mode. that doesn't even kill ammy or c.viper, which is okay, but it's a little harder to hit then a braindead wesker/wolverine combo, and there's no real place to link an x-factor for insta kill either.Lazy vs Crazy said:Ammy has DHC glitch, linkable supers, and does pretty good damage in sword mode.
"God's Beard!"
Member
You boys arguing about tiers again?
SolarPowered
Member
Trish isn't even high tier? lolLazy vs Crazy said:Trish isn't even high tier. She simply doesn't have the damage output to be on that level. Takes like 4 combos to kill a Wolverine. There's a reason only one notable player uses her, and she's his worst character. Her best quality is the peekaboo assist.
We are no longer boys. You don't go through this Summer's events without losing your innocence.God's Beard said:You boys arguing about tiers again?
She-hulk is absolutely not better than Zero. She does not have higher priority normals than him, and she certainly doesn't have an easier time getting in. She also has much less favorable matchups against several top characters who see a lot of play, and as season's beatings demonstrated, matchups are very important.Lazy vs Crazy said:She-Hulk is better than Zero. Her priority is just as good, she does way more damage, has way more life, and has a zillion ways to get in, plus the universe's best air throw.
Trish isn't even high tier. She simply doesn't have the damage output to be on that level. Takes like 4 combos to kill a Wolverine. There's a reason only one notable player uses her, and she's his worst character. Her best quality is the peekaboo assist.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Lazy vs Crazy said:She-Hulk is better than Zero. Her priority is just as good, she does way more damage, has way more life, and has a zillion ways to get in, plus the universe's best air throw.
Trish isn't even high tier. She simply doesn't have the damage output to be on that level. Takes like 4 combos to kill a Wolverine. There's a reason only one notable player uses her, and she's his worst character. Her best quality is the peekaboo assist.
...sigh
i see people dont play SheHulk
Lazy vs Crazy said:She-Hulk is better than Zero. Her priority is just as good, she does way more damage, has way more life, and has a zillion ways to get in, plus the universe's best air throw.
Trish isn't even high tier. She simply doesn't have the damage output to be on that level. Takes like 4 combos to kill a Wolverine. There's a reason only one notable player uses her, and she's his worst character. Her best quality is the peekaboo assist.
lol. So many things wrong here.
that had to do more with viscant being a fraud though.Solune said:If Zero isn't "S" Tier, I implore you to look at who just won SB, 5-0ing people and taking out the EVO champ convincingly. Just saying.
Flocker did a lot more than take out Viscant at season's beatings- he made a lot of excellent players look pretty free.Ultimoo said:that had to do more with viscant being a fraud though.
also, Viscant isn't a fraud!!
Killa Sasa
Member
Ultimoo said:that had to do more with viscant being a fraud though.
Hahaha, it would be hilarious if Renic did another one of these for Viscant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGJHAR8j2R0
and the evidence in this one always gets me for some reason - waiting for the internet's inevitable Viscant remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KoSQJSS_TM
Also, I don't dislike the dude/think he's a fraud or whatever -- FGC humor/trolling is just mad funny to me.
sixteen-bit
Member
welcome back brahGod's Beard said:You boys arguing about tiers again?
Ultimoo said:that had to do more with viscant being a fraud though.
A fraud that has the best Wesker on the planet and won EVO in dominating fashion, even without Phoenix on several occasions?
Now if you said Noel, who had no plan outside of Wolverine, that would make sense. Viscant at least knows how to play all the characters on his team.
Solune said:If Zero isn't "S" Tier, I implore you to look at who just won SB, 5-0ing people and taking out the EVO champ convincingly. Just saying.
Eh, Flockers Zero doesnt even hold a candle to Marns.
Grecco said:Eh, Flockers Zero doesnt even hold a candle to Marns.
It's not about being flashy.
Professor Beef
Banned
Flocker is better than Marn tries to be.Grecco said:Eh, Flockers Zero doesnt even hold a candle to Marns.
Holy shit I can't stop laughing at both of those videos :lol :lol :lolKilla Sasa said:Hahaha, it would be hilarious if Renic did another one of these for Viscant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGJHAR8j2R0
and the evidence in this one always gets me for some reason - waiting for the internet's inevitable Viscant remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KoSQJSS_TM
Also, I don't dislike the dude/think he's a fraud or whatever -- FGC humor/trolling is just mad funny to me.
I'm shocked every time I see Marn play, because somehow he's still competitive when he doesn't go to tournaments for like, months.Professor Beef said:Flocker is better than Marn tries to be.
Grecco said:Eh, Flockers Zero doesnt even hold a candle to Marns.
Throwing random lvl 3 doesn't make up for really good fundamentals and staying alive. Flocker wins this free.
Also, people need to get off Marn's balls. The dude has good execution but relies on deliberately making stupid/random decisions because it catches people off guard. He's almost as big of a fraud as Noel.
scytheavatar
Member
Karsticles said:I think that's part of it. JWong is all pumped about Storm's buffs in UMvC3.
He's the only Wolverine player to have dropped him, I have been trying to say for a while that all this talk about Wolverine being more broken than Dante/Magneto/Wesker is stupid and a scrubby way of avoiding how to deal with him. The non-scrubs who spent less time complaining and more time learning how to play this game are murdering Wolverine players left and right, just look at Noel Brown/Floe/Tokido/Detrimantix getting blown up. J Wong got blown up too when he was playing his old team.
Chindogg said:A fraud that has the best Wesker on the planet and won EVO in dominating fashion, even without Phoenix on several occasions?
Now if you said Noel, who had no plan outside of Wolverine, that would make sense. Viscant at least knows how to play all the characters on his team.
Viscant is not a fraud, but it's quite laughable to say that he knows how to play all the characters on his team. Just look at how he picked Tron in the GF despite knowing jack all about her.
Professor Beef
Banned
Marn has also admitted to nearly throwing matches away just to get style points.
smh
smh
Get hype for Evo 2012.
Bring.
It.
On.
Evo 2011 was fucking amazing, my first Evo I stream monstered all the way through. And this time without summer school, oh man. It's on.
Bring.
It.
On.
Evo 2011 was fucking amazing, my first Evo I stream monstered all the way through. And this time without summer school, oh man. It's on.
scytheavatar said:Viscant is not a fraud, but it's quite laughable to say that he knows how to play all the characters on his team. Just look at how he picked Tron in the GF despite knowing jack all about her.
Tron is the glaring exception out of desparation. He still knew how to use Wesker and Phoenix at a top level though.
scytheavatar
Member
Chindogg said:Tron is the glaring exception out of desparation. He still knew how to use Wesker and Phoenix at a top level though.
And does he know how to use Haggar?
scytheavatar said:And does he know how to use Haggar?
Yes. Haggar's not that hard to play. He knows the relaunch combo, pipe, grab mixups, etc. That's basically it for Haggar.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Since Ultimate is so close, I've been refamiliarizing myself with different team constructions.
I've been playing Wesker/Haggar/Akuma and Magneto/Dante/Akuma a lot lately.
I've been playing Wesker/Haggar/Akuma and Magneto/Dante/Akuma a lot lately.
Marn makes a lot more money in sports betting than he would by winning EVO.Professor Beef said:Marn has also admitted to nearly throwing matches away just to get style points.
smh
God's Beard said:Marn makes a lot more money in sports betting than he would by winning EVO.
Until he blows it all. Again.
Infinite Justice
Member
Karsticles said:I think I only saw one Yun in Season's Beatings top 8, but I could be wrong.
Nope it was Yun free.
Plus the guy who could have went with Yun, stuck with Cody instead and won.
scytheavatar
Member
Chindogg said:Yes. Haggar's not that hard to play. He knows the relaunch combo, pipe, grab mixups, etc. That's basically it for Haggar.
Yeah why is it that he threw away his matches and didn't care whenever he was reduced to Haggar? Why doesn't he know how to get a hit with Haggar against Tron?
scytheavatar said:Yeah why is it that he threw away his matches and didn't care whenever he was reduced to Haggar? Why doesn't he know how to get a hit with Haggar against Tron?
Tron's a way better character with way better options than Haggar and it made more sense to him to just give up? I don't know I'm not Viscant. He has done well in tournaments in the past when he's been reduced to Haggar so I don't know what his thinking was in that position.